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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 2:50 am

Or read this...

A fantastic read...

http://www.amazon.com/Lands-Charm-Cruel ... 573&sr=1-1

An excerpt from a user's comment
-----------------
'Sesser's book was extremely helpful to me while I was living in the Far EAst in the late 90's. His essay on Singapore - discussing "the fear that even the best-educated Singaporeans live under" in their own country, accorded very well with my own observations. This book makes a wonderful corrective to the memoirs of Singapore's leader, Harry Lee Kuan Yew, and a great companion to Christopher Lingle's Singapore's Authoritarin Capitalism, Ian Buruma's essay, "The Nanny State of Asia" (in his book, The Missionary and the Libertine) and Francis Seow's A Prisoner in Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore (...).
---------------


Yes Sesser did get to interview LKY. And suprisingly (or perhaps not) LKY took criticism that Sesser had written and later in parliment quoted it as justification for his style.

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 5:42 am

JR8 wrote:Or read this...

A fantastic read...

http://www.amazon.com/Lands-Charm-Cruel ... 573&sr=1-1

An excerpt from a user's comment
-----------------
'Sesser's book was extremely helpful to me while I was living in the Far EAst in the late 90's. His essay on Singapore - discussing "the fear that even the best-educated Singaporeans live under" in their own country, accorded very well with my own observations. This book makes a wonderful corrective to the memoirs of Singapore's leader, Harry Lee Kuan Yew, and a great companion to Christopher Lingle's Singapore's Authoritarin Capitalism, Ian Buruma's essay, "The Nanny State of Asia" (in his book, The Missionary and the Libertine) and Francis Seow's A Prisoner in Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore (...).
---------------


Yes Sesser did get to interview LKY. And suprisingly (or perhaps not) LKY took criticism that Sesser had written and later in parliment quoted it as justification for his style.



This Finger pointing at the apex is proving very literary. Does it deserve the barracking you're giving it? NO. The fear every S'porean lives under is exagerrated out of proportion. Had he taken a survey? I had sat in malls and heard criticisms of PAP right there - out in the open.

I think there should be less control; but then is it the control or is it the lack of people coming out and coming forward to speak up? I'm inclined to correlate that reluctance to speak up as am example of Confucianist Chinese. Mind you, the Chinese are diverse and not all Confucius.

Some Western journalists just love to preen their egos beacuse they can bash China and all things Chinese without getting any kick backs.
But they're silenced by the antiracist laws against Blacks, Jewish and presently, Muslims because they will get a reaction. It seems like the Chinese are too engrossed with their own worlds to poke their heads out. Do you blame this on LKY - breeding S'poreans in a fishbowl? That was a good one. LOL

The 'nanny's state' is a dated envy. It has some truth but nothing's in black and white. Having lived in SG, I'm not complaining.

When you look at the imploded states of Detroit way back then, 1980s, and the rising number of people living on the streets from Chicago to California today, you won't think nanny 's so bad afterall. You might want to look up Unreported World: Channel 4 UK and it would be great if any Sesser can do something about that sorry state of degeneration. Deeds, not lingo and really, whatever their background, people are not so stupid.

So what if LKY has his idosyncracies? I'd say it's fine if he's spiritual but well, the slanting door... who has any concrete proof that it didn't work? I wouldn't take Feng Shui ( wind and water ) to that extent, but Its principles are ecologically sound. Anyway, SG is a booming economy and workers from Dubai are trying to hop over from Palm island. Now, I wish every country to boom, not bang like the empty cauldron.

Most Chinese respect their superiors esp one as elderly and one who'd done so much with such few words. I'd say not to worry about grooming the next generation either. Watch out for the brilliant Robin (sidekick of Batman )- George Yeo, but he's happy. I would be more ambitious for George Yeo but he's a different being and would prob think I'm presumptous. Whose POV?

Anyone who believes there's true democracy and free speech must be kidding. What LKY fought against was allegations without evidence.
In other words, never jump to conclusions.

The next big thing is the Chinese Railway from East to West, passing through SG. But it won't go down without much criticisms; afterall Chinese coolies built the American railways didn't they, and see how they fly.
Last edited by anneteoh on Mon, 23 Aug 2010 6:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 6:00 am

Bullshit, frankly.

I'll come back back to that another day when I'm fresher.

TTFN

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 6:12 am

anneteoh wrote:The Chinese respect their superiors esp one as elderly and one who'd done so much with such few words. I'd say not to worry about grooming the next generation either. Watch out for the brilliant Robin - George Yeo, but he's happy.

Anyone who believes there's true democracy and free specch must be kidding. What LKY fought against was allegations without evidence. Talk about bleaching poison pens! LOL


Have you served under them anneteoh. I mean literally goes inside the system and see for yourself how it is done ? Have you or have you NOT?
I have been there, done that and came back nearly unscathed .
You do not know what you are talking about. Everything here is superficial. Two wrongs Does NOT make it a right. Name a person who stand up the truth and not dragged into the court and sued for libel.Even though everyone knows it is the TRUTH.
This is not about poison pen, this is about not letting go your control over power. To show others that he is on higher moral ground is just incredulously rubbish.
Look at Suharto, Marcos, Mahathir, and he will be next.You can bet on it.

JB Jeyaretnam won ONE case against them BUT they stamped back and counter sue him on many occasions and make him a bankrupt.
How in the world can you fight for the truth when they have power and the money and the means to stop you from revealing the truth and discredit you.Even Devan Nair , Ong TC died a broken men.
NKF saga is one that really shows how shaky the Gahmen is when SPH accepts the challenge to proof NKF TT Durai was a fraud. Knowing very well NKF honorary member is Goh CT wife.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Great men are almost always bad men
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 6:25 am

JR8 wrote:Bullshit, frankly.

I'll come back back to that another day when I'm fresher.

TTFN


Don't bother. The class pretension is wearying and the lordy ganging up - history as anyone will know. You won't get another Hong kong for all the football in the world.

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 6:57 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
anneteoh wrote:The Chinese respect their superiors esp one as elderly and one who'd done so much with such few words. I'd say not to worry about grooming the next generation either. Watch out for the brilliant Robin - George Yeo, but he's happy.

Anyone who believes there's true democracy and free specch must be kidding. What LKY fought against was allegations without evidence. Talk about bleaching poison pens! LOL


Have you served under them anneteoh. I mean literally goes inside the system and see for yourself how it is done ? Have you or have you NOT?
I have been there, done that and came back nearly unscathed .
You do not know what you are talking about. Everything here is superficial. Two wrongs Does NOT make it a right. Name a person who stand up the truth and not dragged into the court and sued for libel.Even though everyone knows it is the TRUTH.
This is not about poison pen, this is about not letting go your control over power. To show others that he is on higher moral ground is just incredulously rubbish.
Look at Suharto, Marcos, Mahathir, and he will be next.You can bet on it.

JB Jeyaretnam won ONE case against them BUT they stamped back and counter sue him on many occasions and make him a bankrupt.
How in the world can you fight for the truth when they have power and the money and the means to stop you from revealing the truth and discredit you.Even Devan Nair , Ong TC died a broken men.
NKF saga is one that really shows how shaky the Gahmen is when SPH accepts the challenge to proof NKF TT Durai was a fraud. Knowing very well NKF honorary member is Goh CT wife.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely

Great men are almost always bad men


Hi - I remember talking about my physicist friend as the mad scientist. And here's another one. It can't be bad to have many scientists.

I appreciate your explanations - I remember hearing S'poreans talking about that too - so I do get your point.

Power obviosuly corrupts - but does it have that alchemical element to corrupt and turn to base instead of changing to gold? I wonder about this because I had experienced discussing isssues within closed doors albeit in a panel and discussing issues whilst on air. It changes the choice of hats one puts on - in the sense that one takes more responsibility to be careful about sensitive issues. Whatever the domain, no one gets rude in discussion except the objectionable lout. LOL Science does reveal one's true colours.

Anyway, where's the so called troll gone? I'm beginning to think someone's impersonating the troll to hype the race thing up.

Back to the serious issues re Devan Niar, Ong TC et al, I cannot make any comment as I really don't know the details. Neither did I know what actually happened - but I do believe there should be more compassion even if those men had been playing their wild cards. But they might not have either. Anyway, it's bad karma to break others - I'm thinking about restraining myself from reacting to some such ill-mannered guys in this forum myself.

Yet, aren't we all, to a certain extent, victims of the popular culture of heroes versus monsters. Everyone does things believing they're the heroes, saving others or their countries at the expense of vitimising the weaker ones?

Well, no one can deny LKY has done a good job for SG - in fact, quite a few in this thread have said so themselves. Great men do not stop evolving so I hope he keeps turning on. Greatness lives with the small things, like kindness, a smile etc. Not being Tony Blair ( the orator).

Comparatively speaking, look at all these men of power in their political thrones doing as they like. It really takes a very bad one to have the people topple them - as evil as Hitler, the WW2 Japanese etc. I know for sure we can't equate the esteemed LKY with the monsters of mankind. Perhaps a little note to remind him to relax and cultivate compassion on grounds that we're not immortals?

Now then Sarkosy lined up all the 5000 or so Romanian gypsies and threw them out of France due to a list of antisocial things they did to the public. Even the Times newspapers had likened that to an act of fascism.
Yet, what can he do if such a large number simply live where they want, rob others, muck up the town, rob, steal and commit a spate of crimes?

I agree money stinks and I suppose SG is getting intolerably materialistic these days. Help! I'm coming over to use it as my base. Or should I have second thoughts? Anyone coming or going?

Nah...it'll be nice if I can get PR.

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 8:10 am

This is more general remark so MS, please do not take it personally.
What you've been persistently doing in this thread is proving something what nobody even challenged. Just opposite, I think I stated this like few times - many things are not done fair and you can not openly challenge the system. At the same time you clearly neglect to acknowledge that you, your mindset, mentality is very different from majority of Singaporeans. You judge the system and somebody feelings by your own specific values. If this is so bad as you telling why almost everybody wants to migrate here? Are Singaporeans free to leave or are forced to suffer under this "dictatorship"? Suharto, Marcos, Mahathir, are their nations enjoying the same wealth and wellbeing as Singaporeans? Am I missing something here?
Yes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely but that's the point - I do not really see this absolute corruption in Singapore. I see limitations to the freedom but I also see a well organized and surprisingly well running socialistic enterprise and for this he has my credit.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:59 am

There is good and bad in any system of government. Or in any leader, for that matter. Some have decidedly more bad than good but (I do NOT include the historical and modern day monsters though - are there are some of them still around in a few countries). For me, it's easy when talking about leeky. I give him 110% as an effective leader (for me, his results somewhat justify the means. He turned a backwater into a thriving metropolis envied by most major cities in the world in less than 40 years. Not bad for what was essentially a small handful of carefully chosen men who had an ideal.

However, I temper my accolades with the fact that I only give him about 60% as a man. To me he is vindictive. And his penchant to bankrupt anybody who disagrees with him is pathetic from my POV. The claim for suing the opposition into bankruptcy is to maintain the moral high ground? Bollocks. History would stand on his side. What you do for a country would be most leaders history, but unfortunately his personal vendettas will also following him into history as well, tarnishing what otherwise was a sterling performance in nation building. From that perspective the term dictator comes to mind, although his is not, on the surface. But is the only difference the way that he eliminated any opposition? I've not lived under a true dictatorship to know for sure, but I know if I go home I may well be. :wink:

Did he make mistakes? Sure he did. His is, after all, regardless of the pedestal he has erected for himself, only a man. And men are fallible. How many mistakes? No one knows, as some of the mistakes only show up with time. Things like the genetic deficiency that exists among a large portion of the population caused by social engineering. They excel in maths & science but cannot hold an open wide ranging conversation on anything except a very narrow band as a result of the type of education system that was employed in the first 3 decades after independence. Or the almost total lack of social mores. Of course, it could be justified at the time as the country needed to get into the industrial age in a hurry. Same thing with the short sighted population growth restraints of the late 70's offering mother's a trifle $5K to get sterilized after their 2nd child. Short sighted policy in as much as they only were looking 15 years into the future instead of 30. Now they have one of the lowest fertility rates in the world and even dangling 20K baby bonuses isn't enough to pull the population out of the mememe attitude of instant self gratification. Big mistake and now it's compounding itself because it takes time to raise children, but GDP growth has to continue, so in comes foreign labour to take up the slack. Now, with 1 in 4 foreigners here, the locals are hollering foul, and probably rightly so. Especially those who wanted and could have afforded more children, but decided to tow the party line.

But, at the end of the day, the draconian policies have had their effects. The system actually works, and works pretty efficiently, the only problems come from the west with our cowboy attitudes and self moralistic views that we've become accustomed to. In that respect it grinds a bit, but like some of us, due to the fact that it actually works for the most part, we park our deep-seated beliefs and accept that "for here" it works. For me, I just compartmentalize it. I keep the real me in hibernation for a few more years. Both of my kids made it through their entire childhoods and early adulthood without danger or drugs. (Yeah, I know if you want it bad enough you can find it) But I wonder what kind of odds they would have had, had they been in NYC, LA, or Wash DC? Or victims of crimes related to drugs?

But, I still can't wait to escape my HDB prison cell and get back to the farm.


:cool:

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Postby nakatago » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 11:14 am

+1

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:02 pm

Well said SMS and I agree practically with everything with one small exception. I am not that convinced if this is really a personal vendetta behind, even if it appears so. Given the average ppl mentality it may be very well a part of the strategy. I see some justifications of the means even up to this point.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:19 pm

True enough. Not being of Asian extraction myself, I cannot begin to fathom the convolutions of the Asian mindset, and I daresay, one could probably spend their entire life here an not fully understand it. So, yeah, you may well have a valid point.

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Postby earthfriendly » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:42 pm

x9200 wrote: I am not that convinced if this is really a personal vendetta behind, even if it appears so. Given the average ppl mentality it may be very well a part of the strategy. I see some justifications of the means even up to this point.


Ditto. There's something about the way his brain works. Laser sharp and focused. I won't to attribute it to being Asian. It is just who he is. He has decided to pick nation building as his cause and steadfastly works towards it for the rest of his life. He is not easily corrupted from his purpose. Singapore is both a labor of love and necessity. To him, Singapore comes first and foremost, probably above his family and kids.

I do not belive he is power hungry. Autocratic and Draconian, yes. He understands the need to infuse new ideas and fresh blood to keep SG successful and steps down from an active public political life to allow for younger politicians to take charge while he takes on an advisory role. He just can't help it. He is not able to completely withdraw from it all and when he sees something needs to be fixed in this country, he will speak up. In his words "Even from my sick bed, even if you are going to lower me into the grave and I feel something is going wrong, I will get up."

Singapore is his passion "till death do us part".

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Postby JayCee » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 1:03 pm

anneteoh wrote:
Most Chinese respect their superiors


In China, yes.

In Singapore, you're having a larf.

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Postby carlsum1986 » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 2:48 pm

JayCee wrote:
anneteoh wrote:
Most Chinese respect their superiors


In China, yes.

In Singapore, you're having a larf.


In Singapore this is non existent.. I experienced this first hand when I saw a father pushing his daughter in a pram and an old man in front of me who had mobility problems crossing paths. He told the father to becareful not to hit him when he crossed his path. the father just swored at the old man and asked him to be quiet. the old man obviously responded and the father left. I was in shock that this even existed in singapore and I was disgusted. These two ppl are not related to each other and this shows the lack of respect by locals.

anneteoh

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Postby anneteoh » Mon, 23 Aug 2010 3:12 pm

x9200 wrote:This is more general remark so MS, please do not take it personally.
What you've been persistently doing in this thread is proving something what nobody even challenged. Just opposite, I think I stated this like few times - many things are not done fair and you can not openly challenge the system. At the same time you clearly neglect to acknowledge that you, your mindset, mentality is very different from majority of Singaporeans. You judge the system and somebody feelings by your own specific values. If this is so bad as you telling why almost everybody wants to migrate here? Are Singaporeans free to leave or are forced to suffer under this "dictatorship"? Suharto, Marcos, Mahathir, are their nations enjoying the same wealth and wellbeing as Singaporeans? Am I missing something here?
Yes, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely but that's the point - I do not really see this absolute corruption in Singapore. I see limitations to the freedom but I also see a well organized and surprisingly well running socialistic enterprise and for this he has my credit.


I really suggest you read carefully re my own opinion of SG and get your facts right. And obviously, check your literacy levels before you get to talk about my mindset. What do you know. I wouldn't have that presumption even when I think I can place you with regards to personal profiling.LOL

I'm not bashing SG or its leadership, just trying to assuage the rumbling dissents - that's the gist of my reponse.

This summarises the whole point - anything can be misconstrued. I reckon in politics, people's literacy levels must be of a standard of transparent understanding or they shouldn't bother to participate discussing politics. Be aware that politicains have more clout to libel accusations or slander. Hence, it's trouble free to engage your interests elsewhere.

Who says I said there's corruption in SG? What kind of reporter are you to have come to that conclusion BTW?

If there is corruption, and I've lived there, it's not what the govt is aware of. In the UK recently, there are advertisements calling people to be 'the eys and ears' for the local authorities. I don't believe there's anything near that in SG so I can't understand what you're driving at. Have you bothered to look at your own contradictions - "not meant to be personal" yet summing me up - indeed. Most S'poreans would see my discussion here as a completet WOT!

To me, SG is a clear cut top carat diamond in the world of chaos and misadventures. Money is not everything except for those who'd never have it so I generally don't trust people who use wealth as a yardstick.

You made some statements about the locals - I happened to have lived and worked with S'poreans, including having many in my family and extended family. But I won't be so presumptuors as to make stupid judgements, least of all, to make comparisions between people you've never even seen! Gobbledegook.

SG is successful not only because of its govt but also because of S'poreans and expats of all kinds; but it has a cutting edge team of leaders.


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