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Renewal of SPR when not employed in Singapore

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Renewal of SPR when not employed in Singapore

Postby SGPR » Sun, 01 Aug 2010 7:04 pm

Hi all,

I apologize to all for raising this hoary question again but i believe my particular situation has not been covered in all the previous posts that Ive researched.

I have been a Singapore PR (SPR) since 2003. In the same year I was sent abroad through work and both the company and I have been contributing to CPF and ive been paying Sg taxes. I got my first renewal for my Re-Entry Permit (REP) till 2013. I however expect to stay abroad for a few years beyond 2013 but hope to return to Sg for the long term. Hence I am contemplating the renewal of my REP in 2013 under the special situations described below (pls bear with me for this long post)

1. If I quit my current job before 2013 and am not employed by a Sg company then is it true that I will NOT be able to renew my SPR? Even making regular CPF contributions from abroad will not be sufficient to retain my SPR?

2. What if i purchase an HDB flat in Sg say in 2012? Would that improve my chances of having my SPR renewed though i would not be working for a Sg company?

3. If I did purchase a second hand HDB as an existing non-resident SPR in 2012 and if in 2013 the ICA decides not to renew my SPR, then what happens to that property? Can an ex-SPR own an HDB? Will I have to repay my bank loan in a hurry or some such thing?

4. If the ICA were to reject my renewal in 2013 on the grounds that I am no longer employed with a Singaporean company, then will they ask me to withdraw my CPF?

5. If after I withdraw my CPF (since they would have had rejected my renewal application), will I be able to get back to singapore later as an SPR?

Thanks for your opinions and your patience

best
Sgpr

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Re: Renewal of SPR when not employed in Singapore

Postby singaporeflyer » Sun, 01 Aug 2010 11:25 pm

SGPR wrote:Hi all,

5. If after I withdraw my CPF (since they would have had rejected my renewal application), will I be able to get back to singapore later as an SPR?


You may or may not be granted a SPR again later (Depends on how ICA views your case). If you are granted an SPR later then you have to pay back all your earlier CPF contributions.

Please wait for SMS,Saint or MS to answer your other questions

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Re: Renewal of SPR when not employed in Singapore

Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 02 Aug 2010 5:25 am

SGPR wrote:
I have been a Singapore PR (SPR) since 2003. In the same year I was sent abroad through work and both the company and I have been contributing to CPF and ive been paying Sg taxes. I got my first renewal for my Re-Entry Permit (REP) till 2013. I however expect to stay abroad for a few years beyond 2013 but hope to return to Sg for the long term. Hence I am contemplating the renewal of my REP in 2013 under the special situations described below (pls bear with me for this long post)

As long as you have sent overseas assignment by your SG company and you ARE PAYING SG TAX, you will get your REP renewed even if you are overseas.

1. If I quit my current job before 2013 and am not employed by a Sg company then is it true that I will NOT be able to renew my SPR? Even making regular CPF contributions from abroad will not be sufficient to retain my SPR?

SPR contribution is not and will not stand good stead with ICA. You need to pay SG Tax

2. What if i purchase an HDB flat in Sg say in 2012? Would that improve my chances of having my SPR renewed though i would not be working for a Sg company?

NO, does not matter as it does not go to Gahmen Coffers

3. If I did purchase a second hand HDB as an existing non-resident SPR in 2012 and if in 2013 the ICA decides not to renew my SPR, then what happens to that property? Can an ex-SPR own an HDB? Will I have to repay my bank loan in a hurry or some such thing?

NO and no you cannot own a HDB house if you are not living here. You must live physically the last three years of your 5 yrs REP.

4. If the ICA were to reject my renewal in 2013 on the grounds that I am no longer employed with a Singaporean company, then will they ask me to withdraw my CPF?

NOt really, That is your money, if you do not take it out. They will use it for their fund management and ride on your money.They cannot touch or forced you to withdraw if you do not want to. It will interest for you as time goes by.
If you do not want the money, I am opening a Charity under MS CHarity which needs contribution:lol:

5. If after I withdraw my CPF (since they would have had rejected my renewal application), will I be able to get back to singapore later as an SPR?

Once you withdraw, you will be given a standard 30 days Social Visa. This can only happend after you surrender your SPR card.To reapply will be a new application and does not hold any merit being ex SPR. Like SF said you have to return every single dime that you took plus interest to CPF in order for them to reconsider your SPR application which is NOT a SURE THING you get your SPR back. Either that or stay in SG for three years of your 5 yrs REP. Your PR does not expire , it is your REP that does

Thanks for your opinions and your patience

best
Sgpr
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Postby beppi » Mon, 02 Aug 2010 5:19 pm

Income paid for work abroad is not taxable in Singapore.
This is regardless of where and by whom it is paid. Even if a Singapore employer sends you abroad and pays you in Singapore, this income is NOT taxable here! (Normally it is taxable at the place you work - unless you dodge taxes there.)
If you have been paying Singapore tax, it was a voluntary donation to the gahmen. I don't think that helps with PR status, though. But you might be able to get it back, since it was falsely paid. Ask IRAS, they are surprisingly helpful even when it comes to refunds!

(Source: Own experience in a very similar situation.)

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 02 Aug 2010 6:09 pm

beppi wrote:Income paid for work abroad is not taxable in Singapore.
This is regardless of where and by whom it is paid. Even if a Singapore employer sends you abroad and pays you in Singapore, this income is NOT taxable here! (Normally it is taxable at the place you work - unless you dodge taxes there.)
If you have been paying Singapore tax, it was a voluntary donation to the gahmen. I don't think that helps with PR status, though. But you might be able to get it back, since it was falsely paid. Ask IRAS, they are surprisingly helpful even when it comes to refunds!

(Source: Own experience in a very similar situation.)

It depends on how you look at it. My staff goes overseas for assignment. If he does not stay more than 6 months on that country, he only pays SG income tax. If he does stay more than that, if that country has a double taxation, the balance nett taxable income after tax we report it back to SG
In this way you report your income earned in SG too although the tax will be negligible. This will back up on your REP entry.On top of that we report to ICA that they are on overseas assignment.
I have done these to all my managers and one of my directors whom are Sger and SPR alike.
Most of us on overseas assignment declare allowance overseas instead of overseas salary hence, those countries that we have bases with, will not affect much on their taxable income on that countries that they are assigned to. Apart from SG having low tax regime, it does not make sense to pay the tax overseas where your benefits and rebates are more beneficial at home.
For profit sharing and bonuses we report it back in SG. It is how you play with the system and get the best of it. My staffs who are SPR does not want to give up his SPR status but want to go for overseas stint. This is how I have done it and yes it does help on your REP renewal.
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Postby SGPR » Mon, 02 Aug 2010 7:41 pm

Thanks all for the responses.

MS thanks a lot. As i have noticed in other posts as well your information is always very authoritative. I am concerned to note from your response that the only way in which i can retain my SPR despite living abroad is to continue to work for my existing company. Hence if getting back to Sg has a high priority then i am bonded to this company!!

Also you say that I cant buy resale HDB in Singapore even as a preparation for my eventual return!! i have to be living in Sg and only then I can buy a resale HDB!! Are there any govt websites that can elaborate on this point? on the hdb site i got a very concise statement which says "You can own private property (unless you are applying for a CPF Housing Grant and/or an HDB loan). However, you must live in the HDB resale flat."

thanks again for the help!

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Postby beppi » Mon, 02 Aug 2010 8:09 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
beppi wrote:Income paid for work abroad is not taxable in Singapore.
This is regardless of where and by whom it is paid. Even if a Singapore employer sends you abroad and pays you in Singapore, this income is NOT taxable here! (Normally it is taxable at the place you work - unless you dodge taxes there.)
If you have been paying Singapore tax, it was a voluntary donation to the gahmen. I don't think that helps with PR status, though. But you might be able to get it back, since it was falsely paid. Ask IRAS, they are surprisingly helpful even when it comes to refunds!

(Source: Own experience in a very similar situation.)

It depends on how you look at it. My staff goes overseas for assignment. If he does not stay more than 6 months on that country, he only pays SG income tax. If he does stay more than that, if that country has a double taxation, the balance nett taxable income after tax we report it back to SG
In this way you report your income earned in SG too although the tax will be negligible. This will back up on your REP entry.On top of that we report to ICA that they are on overseas assignment.
I have done these to all my managers and one of my directors whom are Sger and SPR alike.
Most of us on overseas assignment declare allowance overseas instead of overseas salary hence, those countries that we have bases with, will not affect much on their taxable income on that countries that they are assigned to. Apart from SG having low tax regime, it does not make sense to pay the tax overseas where your benefits and rebates are more beneficial at home.
For profit sharing and bonuses we report it back in SG. It is how you play with the system and get the best of it. My staffs who are SPR does not want to give up his SPR status but want to go for overseas stint. This is how I have done it and yes it does help on your REP renewal.


I am sure there is a time limit, under which it is counted as business trip and thus the income is taxable in Singapore. I trust you that this limit is 6 months in the case of Singapore (other countries have other such limits). However, after this you don't even have to declare any income for your work abroad to IRAS. I was told this by IRAS officers themselves, so it must be correct.
The first time I didn't know this and wrongly declared my full income for 6 months in Indonesia. After somebody told me that it isn't taxable, I sent a letter from my company saying that I was stationed abroad during that time to IRAS, and I promptly got the overpaid tax back.
Since then I have been abroad for longer periods several times and IRAS told me (and my company) to simply not include that income in the declaration. I seems not to matter whether the income is taxed in the other country or not (but in most cases the other country makes sure it is!).

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 03 Aug 2010 5:23 am

SGPR wrote:Thanks all for the responses.

MS thanks a lot. As i have noticed in other posts as well your information is always very authoritative. I am concerned to note from your response that the only way in which i can retain my SPR despite living abroad is to continue to work for my existing company. Hence if getting back to Sg has a high priority then i am bonded to this company!!

I do not represent the Gahmen. That you can be assured of. I interprete the guideline based on what I have done and what I do know having lived here for more than half of my life. You can always not take my advises. It is free and we are all faceless people in the cyberspace.
The SPR given to you was meant for you to enjoy the SG economic benefits minus some compare to Sger like living here, buying HDB resale flat, children subsidies education .
I think you have an apportunity overseas that you want to grab but does not want to lose your SPR if something goes wrong overseas. If that happen you want something to fall back.
This is exactly what the Gahmen is trying to prevent and it is working as it should. The Gahmen wants you to sink your roots here
If you think I am pulling a fast one on you, go and see Citizen Advise Bureau at ICA and see what they say.
Alternatively look at their website on their requirement http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=152


Also you say that I cant buy resale HDB in Singapore even as a preparation for my eventual return!! i have to be living in Sg and only then I can buy a resale HDB!! Are there any govt websites that can elaborate on this point? on the hdb site i got a very concise statement which says "You can own private property (unless you are applying for a CPF Housing Grant and/or an HDB loan). However, you must live in the HDB resale flat."

Anybody can buy private property depending on their strata clause. You do not even have to live in physically if you buy private property. NOT HDB that I am sure i.e if you own a HDB and a private property , you must live in your HDB property NOT your private property
This is HDB link http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10321p.nsf ... enDocument.
As HDB flats are open to SGer and SPR, if you do not have a valid REP permit hence your PR status is revoke, how can you own the HDB flat then ?
All the Ministries links themselves and they will find out if you are not a SPR. You can always e-mail to them if you find what I said is not true. If that is the case, I will eat a humble pie and ask for your forgiveness for this misinformation
There is one way you can retain your PR status . Invest $2 million in a business in SG and become its director. The money must be poured and physically in SG. Alternatively invest in SG privately of Gahmen bonds which has a 5 year yield. Talk to ica or spring singapore.


thanks again for the help!
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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 03 Aug 2010 5:29 am

beppi wrote:I am sure there is a time limit, under which it is counted as business trip and thus the income is taxable in Singapore. I trust you that this limit is 6 months in the case of Singapore (other countries have other such limits). However, after this you don't even have to declare any income for your work abroad to IRAS. I was told this by IRAS officers themselves, so it must be correct.
The first time I didn't know this and wrongly declared my full income for 6 months in Indonesia. After somebody told me that it isn't taxable, I sent a letter from my company saying that I was stationed abroad during that time to IRAS, and I promptly got the overpaid tax back.
Since then I have been abroad for longer periods several times and IRAS told me (and my company) to simply not include that income in the declaration. I seems not to matter whether the income is taxed in the other country or not (but in most cases the other country makes sure it is!).


Yes beppi you are right. Most countries has a limit between 180 to 186 days from memory when the income tax set in.
In Indonesia, you do not need to pay any taxes at all even if you are working longer period down there. I am guilty of that. The tax structure there is so dodgy that you can include everything in your business expenses!!!
However I would like to know if you are a PR or on P1, P2 passes. OP is a SPR working overseas where REP has a time limit of 5 yrs. I have posted the ica website for him to absord and REP condition
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Postby beppi » Tue, 03 Aug 2010 10:56 am

Mad Scientist wrote:Yes beppi you are right. Most countries has a limit between 180 to 186 days from memory when the income tax set in.

Not correct: Most countries have a limit of two weeks (e.g. Taiwan) to two months (e.g. Singapore) before income tax sets in, but tax treaties between certain countries might specify something else that then overwrites the default rule. Most tax treaties have the 183 days per year rule.

Mad Scientist wrote:In Indonesia, you do not need to pay any taxes at all even if you are working longer period down there. I am guilty of that. The tax structure there is so dodgy that you can include everything in your business expenses!!!

Under normal circumstances you do have to pay tax in Indonesia, too.

Mad Scientist wrote:However I would like to know if you are a PR or on P1, P2 passes. OP is a SPR working overseas where REP has a time limit of 5 yrs. I have posted the ica website for him to absord and REP condition

I am PR for 15 years and so far didn't have problems renewing the REP, but I do have a Singaporean wife and daughter, which helps in this respect.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 03 Aug 2010 2:37 pm

Beppi, yes in most circumstance what you have has some truth in it. Singapore has a 183 days tax rule .

I am an Indonesian/Portugese by birth but a Sger with a SPR wife. So that is why I said to you Indonesian Tax Structure is dodgy because Indonesian rarely pays tax. That is why the country is so much in debt apart from the corruption. croynism and nepotism.

I am the opposite of you in some way which is totally different from OP as OP is SPR. So my guess OP's family too.

So if you have sink your roots here, REP is a NON Issue. No drama at all .

What the Gahmen does not want is foreigners jumping from one country to another just to collect PR under the pretext "Global Economy needs Gobal Talent that are mobile". Basically just riding on the system which the Gahmen has close this loophole.Hence OP post :)
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Postby mallipeddi.ram » Fri, 11 May 2012 7:15 am

Hi All,

I am a SPR. I worked in Singapore till Aug 2011. At present I am working overseas and not employed by an Singapore based company.

I have my REP renewal this October (2012). What are my chances for renewal?

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Postby Mi Amigo » Fri, 11 May 2012 8:25 am

Do you intend to return to work in Singapore before the current REP expires? If not, then you will not be a permanent resident here, so I would expect the chances of renewal to be slim. That's my guess, but MS and the other experts can give a more definitive answer.
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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 13 May 2012 3:19 pm

Mi Amigo wrote:Do you intend to return to work in Singapore before the current REP expires? If not, then you will not be a permanent resident here, so I would expect the chances of renewal to be slim. That's my guess, but MS and the other experts can give a more definitive answer.


Ah......... I am no expert here and not knowledgeable in this area or else I would be assume to have reason for your rejection or poking fun at you . Wait for the REAL EXPERT to give you more definitive answer. Sorry I cannot help on this.
I am just an old man who knows nuts about all these things
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 13 May 2012 5:04 pm

mallipeddi.ram wrote:Hi All,

I am a SPR. I worked in Singapore till Aug 2011. At present I am working overseas and not employed by an Singapore based company.

I have my REP renewal this October (2012). What are my chances for renewal?


How long have you been working overseas? If more than 2 of the past 3 years, fergeddit.


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