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PR and NS woes

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 10 Jul 2010 6:14 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:MS, the guy is a PR not a SG'er


To OP , SMS

To reiterate what I have understand so far and after much search and information gathering, Chap 133 of the Immigration Act can deny one who is an ex PR from entering Singapore if it is found to be undesirable immigrant or receive instruction from other agencies to deny one entry. This is very wide scope and has no specific details on its clause

(k) any person who, in consequence of information received from any source or from any government through official or diplomatic channels, is considered by the Minister to be an undesirable immigrant;

(l) any person who has been removed from any country or state by the government of that country or state on repatriation for any reason whatever and who, by reason of the circumstances connected therewith, is considered by the Controller to be an undesirable immigrant;

(m) any person who, being required by any written law for the time being in force to be in possession of valid travel documents, is not in possession of those documents or is in possession of forged or altered travel documents or travel documents which do not fully comply with that written law;

(n) the family and dependants of a prohibited immigrant; and

(o) any person prohibited by an order made under section 9 from entering Singapore.
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Postby taxico » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 12:06 am

wongkw wrote:Assuming I really do get the check up letter at 16.5 years, that will be in October. The O levels are in November. I don't know how feasible it would be to delay the medical check up for so long (a month).

One more thing I forgot to address:

Deferment for overseas studies are only up to college. Tertiary education whether it is local or overseas are not allowed for deferment.

You have no other choice as you are a 2nd Gen PR


Foundation Studies is a college course - it is not counted under tertiary education.


the following is from experience. it is not recent, but as i understand it from other people's kid/siblings/friends... it's still valid.

it is unlikely you'll have to go for a check-up at 16.5 years old unless you are not schooling at the time.

your medical profile is only valid for 6 months from the time you visit a military doctor. it does not make sense for us to review 16.5 year olds today, and once again after they finish JC/Poly (before they get enlisted).

you will however get a letter telling you a buncha mumbo jumbo about NS and jail time. you can plow through Mad's profile for such details. in a nutshell: TRY TO AVOID DOING AS YOU'RE TOLD AND WE WILL OWN YOUR ASS!

therefore, a boy will usually be called up for check-up when he's around 18/19 (or so) years old UNLESS he opts for early enlistment.

and if he does not continue to study after O/N levels, then he will actually get to bum around for a year or so, as some actually do, thinking MINDEF will notify them for early enlistment. <- this i can not guarantee with MOE/MINDEF possibly sharing data these days.

since you're in a government school, you'll probably finish up O levels only towards the end of the year.

and unless one is seriously over-aged (eg, held back in school for 2-3 years or more?), deferments for singaporean students heading overseas are generally granted for about 2 years.

ie, if you haven't been retained in secondary school, you will probably be allowed to complete your foundation course + one/two semesters in university BEFORE mindef says NO DICE (following which, you must come home for a short break, check-up and eventual NS enlistment)!

naturally, a bond must be furnished while you're away. however, as you're in the midst of a university course, you WILL usually qualify for officer school - this might be challenging and rewarding task.

for a variety of reasons, i recommend you finish up your NS before you leave singapore.

firstly, early enlistment assures you will be of (relative) lower age and rank, thus will hold lower responsibilities (more breaks) while serving NS.

you will ALSO be an enlisted personnel, and have a shorter NS liability than compared to an officer - this will come in handy if you change your mind during your 2 years.

the amount of money required for your bond is another reason.

also, having no disruption during your university life is particularly important if your course of study is long and intense (eg, MBBS or direct PHD grad school)... AND also if you don't want to have to make friends "all over again" when you resume school as a junior.

finally, whether you like it or not, whether or not it's your choice to be a singapore PR, the NS-thing must be responsibly completed, and can make you better person.

at your age, you are not likely to see past the nasty term "NS," but time is a heckuva thing... you might change your mind down the road, so don't give yourself LESS options by trying to escape the inevitable.
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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 12:55 am

Why does Singapore have enlistment? Is it like being sent to re-education camp for the pampered masses? The family, with the maid carrying your bag, can't make a man and puppet of you, so the state will have a last shot?

What is the point? Has any Singaporean fired a shot in anger since WW2? Are the Malasysians honestly going to stream over the Causeway and invade. Won't you just dial up for the US 6th Fleet in any case?

And yet here the state is demanding every young man give perhaps two of the potentiually more productive years of his life for nothing. Talk about 'opportunity cost'.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to employ a professional army of Ghurkas, rather than force a local enlisted 'troop' of D&G clad pooftas to flounce around a field for a couple of years?



(Yeah Nakatago... 'kinda trolling' 2)

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 1:29 am

I'll say! [-X

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 3:28 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I'll say! [-X


Sorry did I go at it a bit hard there? :)

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 11:50 am

nah, no worse than me when I've got a bee in my bonnet! :lol:

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Postby taxico » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 6:32 pm

JR8 wrote:Why does Singapore have enlistment? Is it like being sent to re-education camp for the pampered masses? The family, with the maid carrying your bag, can't make a man and puppet of you, so the state will have a last shot?

What is the point? Has any Singaporean fired a shot in anger since WW2? Are the Malasysians honestly going to stream over the Causeway and invade. Won't you just dial up for the US 6th Fleet in any case?

And yet here the state is demanding every young man give perhaps two of the potentiually more productive years of his life for nothing. Talk about 'opportunity cost'.

Wouldn't it be cheaper to employ a professional army of Ghurkas, rather than force a local enlisted 'troop' of D&G clad pooftas to flounce around a field for a couple of years?


i don't speak for the singapore government. i don't like the idea of NS much either.

but i do feel the threat from singapore's neighbors are very real, purely from a geographical standpoint. this is a ridiculously small country, and its safety is mostly ensured through ridiculously high quantity of dollars spent on defense.

many small but real "push and shoves" happen on singapore's territorial borders; especially out at sea. these cases that test singapore's patience and boundaries are not reported in any newspapers, and you can be sure neighboring navies and military forces will continue to test the boundaries (especially depending on who their head of governments are).

whether or not the US can send troops to assist singapore in the event of an emergency is moot - what is important is how quickly a response can be mounted, and no response will be quicker than that from the singapore armed forces.

time, and possibly pre-emption is of the essence for a country of singapore's size.

however "unprofessional" or "uneffective" the make-up of national servicemen, we know they understand the basics of soldiering and can handle a weapon from "flouncing around a coupla years." wouldn't you take them over untrained civilians any day?

3mil, 4 mil, 5 mil... whatever the population count, you can also be sure that the true number of available "singaporean males" to help defend their country is not as high as the government would like. reservist training keeps them up-to-date with tactics and in-touch with fellow citizen soldiers.

additionally, singapore's national service is more than national defense or militarism. they also make up a big number of police officers and paramedics/fire-rescue personnel.

not everyone would willingly take up such roles, and unlike sanitation, these are not roles that can NOR should be easily filled by foreign labor...

such as ghurkas. they are indeed foreign labor force that makes up part of the singapore police force, however they are not directly hired by the singapore government as i understand it - the head of the ghurka contingent is an englishman on loan from... well, england. there is an agreement for england to allow singapore to use these ghurkas.

as such, it is better to liken the contingent to a detached paramilitary force than to assume they make up a large part of the police department.

further, there are reasons (for the government) to not deploy them in larger numbers; as it stands, the ghurka community has been advised to have minimal contact with singaporeans and to live within the fences of the full-service ghurka village (?) that has been purpose built for them on mount vernon.

i believe the government MAY feel that ghurkas are good only as professional paramilitary men, and if that identity is shod, the nepalese (sic?) do not add value to the local labor pool and thus should not be retained past their contract. (of course, some do manage to stay, but this is never an easy task)

a foreign-born and bred singapore police force, even in the command of a singaporean commissioner, will NEVER WORK.

the idea of a national police force filled up with foreign nationals will never sit well with nit-picking fussy singaporeans, no matter how alike the country is to a dictatorship... the government must ALWAYS maintain a semblance of democracy and peace.

with the shrinking pool of candidates available for both full-time (compulsory) national service and regular service, changes have been made to accommodate them - in part to reflect the complaining and questioning nature of singaporeans, and in part to entice them to sign up for regular service (be it in the military or civil defense force).

these necessarily include a shorter service period, higher pay, and a clearer understanding/education of the WHYs behind a command (in both sense of the word). life "within" the service needs to be better ALSO because... singaporean parents are probably worse fusspots than their offprings and they must be kept reasonably happy! (SimCity comes to mind here)

be it 2 years, 2.5 years or 3 years, national service is a necessary evil and an acceptable solution for many states (even very "peaceful" ones).

i don't like it, but i will accept it.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 08 Aug 2010 11:01 pm

Image

With absolutely no sarcasm intended! Welcome back Taxico!

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Postby JR8 » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 1:54 am

many small but real "push and shoves" happen on singapore's territorial borders; especially out at sea. these cases that test singapore's patience and boundaries are not reported in any newspapers, and you can be sure neighboring navies and military forces will continue to test the boundaries (especially depending on who their head of governments are).

Thanks for the most thoughtful reply to my beer keg-of-beer fuelled polemic :lol:

Many things that you said caught my eye, but I'm too busy to debate at length this weekend this w/e unfortunately

I wanted to comment on the above quoted paragraph though. An impression that I have had for as long as I can remember, is that SGn politicians seem to love taking every opportunity to remind citizens how vulnerable they are (i.e. I sense the sub-text is 'Keep voting PAP or risk losing it all'). Whether that be the geo-politics of being a 'little red dot', 'a small fish in a big pond' or more recently a 'small boat tossed around by the wake of a financial supertanker'. LKY&Co seemed to speciailise in spinning out these rather child-like allegories as if speaking a class of five year old children.

So with that in mind, why would the gahment choose not to frighten the people with real-life territorial threats?

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Postby taxico » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 2:32 am

JR8 wrote:An impression that I have had for as long as I can remember, is that SGn politicians seem to love taking every opportunity to remind citizens how vulnerable they are (i.e. I sense the sub-text is 'Keep voting PAP or risk losing it all').

Whether that be the geo-politics of being a 'little red dot', 'a small fish in a big pond' or more recently a 'small boat tossed around by the wake of a financial supertanker'.

LKY&Co seemed to speciailise in spinning out these rather child-like allegories as if speaking a class of five year old children.

So with that in mind, why would the gahment choose not to frighten the people with real-life territorial threats?


leeky's worried about blowback.

i'll address the rest tomorow, before or after the damn parade...

my comment was not meant to be a debate.

xanax OUT!
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Postby JR8 » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 3:00 am

taxico wrote:
JR8 wrote:An impression that I have had for as long as I can remember, is that SGn politicians seem to love taking every opportunity to remind citizens how vulnerable they are (i.e. I sense the sub-text is 'Keep voting PAP or risk losing it all').

Whether that be the geo-politics of being a 'little red dot', 'a small fish in a big pond' or more recently a 'small boat tossed around by the wake of a financial supertanker'.

LKY&Co seemed to speciailise in spinning out these rather child-like allegories as if speaking a class of five year old children.

So with that in mind, why would the gahment choose not to frighten the people with real-life territorial threats?


leeky's worried about blowback.
i'll address the rest tomorow, before or after the damn parade...
my comment was not meant to be a debate.
xanax OUT!


I thought a blowback was something you could do with a lungful of smoke and a reversed joint of marijuana.

Don't really understand what you are saying to be honest.

Enjoy the parade!

p.s. And what the hell is xanax out?

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Re: WTB: Glock 19 polymer paddle holster

Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:35 am

taxico wrote:such as ghurkas. they are indeed foreign labor force that makes up part of the singapore police force, however they are not directly hired by the singapore government as i understand it - the head of the ghurka contingent is an englishman on loan from... well, england. there is an agreement for england to allow singapore to use these ghurkas.


i believe the government MAY feel that ghurkas are good only as professional paramilitary men, and if that identity is shod, the nepalese (sic?) do not add value to the local labor pool and thus should not be retained past their contract. (of course, some do manage to stay, but this is never an easy task)


This policy of national security is more like who is calling the bluff. Deterrent is better than full scale war. Hence we buy arsenal of weaponry , aircarft , the whole works and we tried and test it in places like Thailand, Taiwan, Queensland and even USA

The Gurkhas battalion consist of two bn. One is Paramilitary and the other is working along the Armed Forces.
No it is not headed by an Englishman
Their purpose is more of the security of government installation and the President of SG and its cabinet ministers aka Lee Family.
They report to MHA
Just to get the facts straight :)
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Re: WTB: Glock 19 polymer paddle holster

Postby taxico » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:09 pm

this discussion has become a black hole! after a day at the padang, i have decided not to speak further on any topics i've raised above. i'm sure they'll come up again, and i'll make (additional) comments if i feel for it in future.

what i must add however, is: national security and strategic policies remain multi-faceted.

political and military ties are not as simple as "buying weapons overseas" - there are many intricacies and kinks that need to be ironed out (including trust and over-sight issues) for the establishment of bases (any sort) and conduct of military/training exercises on foreign soil.

for tiny singapore, a QUID PRO QUO exchange is never sufficient when dealing with mightier nations - but still a worthy transaction for relative peace of mind.

MY ABRUPT CONCLUSION: all opinions expressed were/are mine. whether or not my facts are correct, i think it'd be best if the reader does some leg work to check them out, rather than take anyone's word for it (including mine).
Last edited by taxico on Tue, 10 Aug 2010 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby taxico » Mon, 09 Aug 2010 10:27 pm

http://www.ekantipur.com/the-kathmandu- ... nt/209961/

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/aug/26/news/mn-38395

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0704/120.html

i hope the above links are allowed, as they are not SPH/A1-material.

here are additional details, under the section "How The British Have Sold The Gurkhas To The Other Nations"

http://www.gurkhas.com/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=946

Assistant Commissioner Bruce Mackenzie Niven retired honorably and deservedly, sometime in 2006.

whatever the current "employment status" of Gurkhas, information regarding them continues to remains sketchy.

while i have only conducted minor research into what became an aborted academic paper about these nepalese some years back; where applicable, i stand corrected.
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Postby taxico » Tue, 10 Aug 2010 1:30 am

JR8 wrote:I thought a blowback was something you could do with a lungful of smoke and a reversed joint of marijuana.

Don't really understand what you are saying to be honest.

Enjoy the parade!

p.s. And what the hell is xanax out?


coz you're a good kinda bloke, i felt a reply was in order:

blowback's kinda like "consequence" i guess... or if you want to go Wikipedia's way:

Specifically, blowback denotes the resultant, violent consequences—reported as news fact, by domestic and international mass communications media...

Generally, blowback loosely denotes every consequence of every aspect of a secret attack operation, thus, it is synonymous with consequence...


it's not important why anyone should understand what i was talking about. i have a tendency to ramble in these parts of the woods.

the parade was shite.

i was on the cusp of being knocked out by the relaxant "xanax" when i posted that message... xanax'ED out! it's been a very stressful month of july, and august is no joke so far either.

actually from time to time, when i've had a bad MONTH, i wish there was a dingy housing project with shady people somewhere nearby for me to buy some of that good purple stuff.

YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT I MEAN! so... perhaps blowback should mean just what you said.

JR8 wrote:...An impression that I have had for as long as I can remember, is that SGn politicians seem to love taking every opportunity to remind citizens how vulnerable they are (i.e. I sense the sub-text is 'Keep voting PAP or risk losing it all')...

So with that in mind, why would the gahment choose not to frighten the people with real-life territorial threats?


bearing in mind this is not a debate, in MY simplistic opinion:

not everything can be used ONLY towards the end-game of gaining votes for the PAP.

some situations, if exposed, serve to unravel a totally private PAP onion - something the party thus feels, unworthy of mentioning to the public. or perhaps there are other strategic reasons behind it?

recent examples can be seen in the revelation of the tanjong pagar train station land: WHO KNEW the malaysian government did not have that much of a stranglehold as the public had thought...

if that damn land was no longer used as a train station, it has to be reverted to singapore's possession. the land is also "leasehold" - not freehold, not sovereign malaysian land of any sort! where were these details during the leeky and mahathir years?

why, o why, couldn't the land acquisition act, so well applied on hapless private individuals, not be used here? why a need for a 40:60 dealio? AND NOW, BUSINESS COUNCILS REFORMED ... to help open up markets... and what not...

PAPSI: SHHHHHHHHHHHH. the land thing is water under de bridge. we going to develop shopping mawll wiff malaysia! we tight-as!

another example can be found in a speech made recently by LeeKY the leek at the wake/funeral/death celebrations of some "old guard" minister... and a no-joke minister he was...

the leek let slip that the idea for separation from malaysia did not pan out like how the country's PAP-approved historians have been telling the public.

it was in fact an idea mooted by the no-joker INSTEAD OF THE LEEK! (or something along that line... i will surely be corrected on this issue of importance and public record, i just know it!)

what would the consequence be if these two little details were made known to the public decades ago? i dono. can't be good, i wager. that's why PAP kept it on the down low. did the leek even know he slipped that nugget of information out that day? and more importantly... DID THE LEEK CARE? (ans: NO)

i'm sure many more accounts of other situations will come a'tumblin' out out, in part as private papers in UK and Malaysia become decommissioned, and in part, because as these old guard ministers keel over one by one, there is less of a need to hide secrets.

i'm just not sure how long is needed for the entire truth about singapore's past, to be fully revealed.

MERDEKA!

(I TOLD YOU I RAMBLE TOO MUCH IN THESE WOODS!!!) i'm taking valium tonight to deal with my crispy skin.
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