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Climate Change - Where's the cooperation when it's needed?

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Postby nakatago » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 6:44 pm

JR8 wrote: Quelle surprise! 'Climate change' is just another politicised fake issue....


Oh, climate change is a real issue but it's gone the way of the concepts of democracy and organized religion.

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 7:30 pm

nakatago wrote:
JR8 wrote: Quelle surprise! 'Climate change' is just another politicised fake issue....


Oh, climate change is a real issue but it's gone the way of the concepts of democracy and organized religion.


You've hit the nail on the head there, Nakatago and JR8. As Marx put it, "religion is the opiate of the masses." So I guess it's all about brain washing. Expect to have price increases on every green matter ; is that all that it's about? That's totally sceptical; but remember the activists on board the boats and ships in the Gaza - they're green as grass. They did help the Palestinians, to a certain extent. Problems are solved piecemeal, aren't they? Like quantum physics?

But if we go beyond that, looking at SMS's amazing detailed knowledge of how oil rigs work and what's currently amiss in the rick, can anyone get to the bottom of it, say if a new oil rig were to be drilled in the same spot?

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 7:36 pm

JR8 wrote:
anneteoh wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
I had expected P. Obama to be more reassuring and hold out a hand to BP with assurance of technical support etc ( though BP's got the lot ) instead of the harshwords and the complete blame. I would also expect him to open the BP dilemma to members of Climate Change and start a Climate Change Think Tank to work out a stop the spill plan within a short time. BP can do with a lot of help as it's not able to stop the spill.

As an expert in this field, can you think of how BP can stop the gushing or get the oil out with the least spill into the environment?


If the greens hadn't gone so swivel-eyed about nuclear power since time immemorial, or land based drilling (ex: Alaska), then this never needed happen. I.e. it is their fault.

Obama is (and always has been) full of it, and simply playing to his audience. Quelle surprise! 'Climate change' is just another politicised fake issue....

There, that's my 2c :)


Hi JR8. Wow, the technology in this post has gone like BP's drilling in the Gulf. I'm sorry SMS , your post's about the nitty gritty, mine's snapshots of thoughts and impressions. And it hasn't cleared too. Boils down to the point - nothing can replace human labour and manual tasks. What if this is about nuclear buttons - misquoting all over the place? It won't stand a chance in court. LOL
Last edited by anneteoh on Tue, 22 Jun 2010 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby nakatago » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 7:37 pm

anneteoh wrote:Like quantum physics?


That is prone to being a very bad analogy but I get what you mean. Baby steps. :P

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:02 pm

anneteoh wrote:
nakatago wrote:
JR8 wrote: Quelle surprise! 'Climate change' is just another politicised fake issue....


Oh, climate change is a real issue but it's gone the way of the concepts of democracy and organized religion.


You've hit the nail on the head there, Nakatago and JR8. As Marx put it, "religion is the opiate of the masses." So I guess it's all about brain washing. Expect to have price increases on every green matter ; is that all that it's about? That's totally sceptical; but remember the activists on board the boats and ships in the Gaza - they're green as grass. They did help the Palestinians, to a certain extent. Problems are solved piecemeal, aren't they? Like quantum physics?

But if we go beyond that, looking at SMS's amazing detailed knowledge of how oil rigs work and what's currently amiss in the rick, can anyone get to the bottom of it, say if a new oil rig were to be drilled in the same spot?




'The people' seem to need something to self-flagellate about at any given time. i.e People seem to have a guilt-thing and need to punish themselves. Hence these few years, it has been 'climate-change', and 'carbon-footprints'.

Could you ever imagine anything so preposterous?

And yet there a

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:04 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Anne, if I knew the answer to that, I sure as hell wouldn't be sitting behind this computer playing HR & Finance Manager at a 200 man SME in Singapore.

It'll be good to know what you're doing these days but I can't decode the abbreviations - haven't lived in SG for some years. Whatever it is, I'm sure you're a mighty great asset. SG's lucky to have you there.
Anyway, you're in a silver lining in SG. The paper's reporting that many bankers are leaving London, and US bankers too, are moving to SG in this current economic clampdown on wealth ( new capital gains tax among others ) and the free market here.


The problem is that once the BOP has been breached (the blowout preventor) and the pipe from the drillship/semisub has been severed there is only one way into that well bore and that is by drilling directional drilling shafts far enough down to the oil-bearing rock and hitting a 7" diameter hole from 3.5 miles away. Not once but twice from two different angles. And you cannot drill through 18,000' of rock/clay/shale/mud overnight. Sadly that is the only way to have a chance of stopping it. You will notice I said "a chance" because even that is a calculated gamble, albeit with a much higher percentage of success as it's been done sufficient number of times. But this could take 4 to 6 months. As you read, the Ixtoc 1 flowed for almost 9 months and eventually poured 3.5 million barrels of oil into the gulf before it was capped.

Shouldn't BP and the US have taken lessons from the past and precautionary steps together with a 'Fix it" package before they drilled? Is this spill an acident or a gamble?

Now, the next question would have been isn't there a way to "cap it" at the BOP. In theory yes. But in practice what they have done is a close as they would be able to get. Let me explain......

When they are drilling for oil they have a steel casing (pipe) that goes from the top of the BOP stack (that which you see in the video) all the way up to the drilling rig. When the rig blew up and sank, where did that steel pipe go? Remember it's a mile long and going straight up in the sea to the surface. It now looks like a huge pile of spaghetti on the bottom. They tried to stuffing it up in the open end with no success. Next, they decided on try the cap on the top of that open pipe, but had methane gas freezing up the top of the first dome. Now they decided to cap the top of the BOP itself after cutting the pipe off. In theory sounds good, yeah.

Couldn't they have constructed the steel casing with nonflammable material, like the reinforced cables and plastics ( I can't remember the exact names and substances combined) used in Taiwan and HK which were light yet strong as steel and resistenet to breaking out in flames in storms.

The problem here is one that the average public doesn't think about. Take a length of reinforced waterhose that is fastened to a faucet, grab it 2 feet from the nozzle and stretch it till it is in a straight line away from the faucet end. Now, take that hose and bend in upwards so that it moves to a position of 90 degrees from the faucet nozzle. What happens when the hose bends? Of course, it flattens out and kinks. So obviously one thinks well if we cut it back away from the bend it should be okay, but the stresses on the pipe will bend the pipe out of round quite a ways back and unfortunately, they had not enough room to cut and still leave a "round" stub. So, because this round stub isn't really round at all but more of a slight oval shape, they cannot make a seal or a clamp to go around the pipe to seal it. Therefore all that they can do is get a close as possible but it will not stop the leak but allows them to siphon off the majority of it while the relief wells are continuing to be drilled.

And, all of this using ROVs under a mile of water.



Great details even though I don't know what a ROV is - rubberized ... something? From what I can see - only from tv pics, the gushing comes without any sealant. Does that mean the gushing forces the stub off because the mishapen lid cannot fit into the faucet and locked it up?
Can they not use another hose to draw the oil into lines of waiting tankers to transport the oil away and work at moulding the clamp to fit the pipe at the same time?


Since so much oil's spilled, can they recycle the spillage?
Last edited by anneteoh on Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:05 pm

...sorry for posting half-way through the epistle :)
[still on a dodgy little hyper net-book pre arrival of our cargo]

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:17 pm

JR8 wrote:...sorry for posting half-way through the epistle :)
[still on a dodgy little hyper net-book pre arrival of our cargo]


Have you surfaced from the dunes? I was clumsy with the colours . Is that the blackberry u're talking about. I have no idea about ipods and berries. Never have them. How's your new life, in Deutchland? Alles in ordernung? LOL

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:23 pm

anneteoh wrote:
JR8 wrote:...sorry for posting half-way through the epistle :)
[still on a dodgy little hyper net-book pre arrival of our cargo]


Have you surfaced from the dunes? I was clumsy with the colours . Is that the blackberry u're talking about. I have no idea about ipods and berries. Never have them. How's your new life, in Deutchland? Alles in ordernung? LOL


Let me take some more Berries, or pills. It is the same no?

Germany has lots of pork.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 8:38 pm

Anne,

Unfortunately, as I said before, BP is still at fault. They were having a series of problems and spikes in well bore pressures BEFORE the blowout. (As an aside, steel pipe is inflammable but methane gas isn't) The Blowout Preventor on the seabed was not testing correctly and the well should have been shut in (all drilling ceased until the problems were sorted out - probably should have cemented the well in and pulled up the BOP and found out what the problem was instead of continuing to drill). 30 years ago, a drilling rig went for around 40K USD a day not counting all the salaries, service companies, etc. I shudder to think of their costs today! So do the Oil companies (BP) as when they have to pull up 3.5 miles of drill string each time, that costs money - of course not as much as it's gonna cost them now, but they took a gamble and lost - and for that they should pay. Unfortunately, when the backup system fails, for whatever reason, mechanical or human error, then the fit hits the shan! Ecological disaster, yes, as bad as they say? I'll reserve judgement. The gulf recovered from Ixtoc 1. Texas got hit pretty bad with that one. But just like the constant pummeling by hurricanes, it all bounces back given time.

That's what the cap is doing now. It's siphoning up around 80% of the oil and it's being burned off or stored on tankers. The problem with trying to build a clamp to fit the out of round pipe is getting a shape of it as the pressure of the oil won't allow them to get a "print" of the opening.

ROV : Remotely operated Vehicles. Submersible unmanned robots.

Oh, everybody here got down on my case during the primaries/elections cause I knew then what Obama was. I wish I didn't have to say "I told you so....." :-|

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 9:27 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
That's what the cap is doing now. It's siphoning up around 80% of the oil and it's being burned off or stored on tankers. The problem with trying to build a clamp to fit the out of round pipe is getting a shape of it as the pressure of the oil won't allow them to get a "print" of the opening.

ROV : Remotely operated Vehicles. Submersible unmanned robots.

Oh, everybody here got down on my case during the primaries/elections cause I knew then what Obama was. I wish I didn't have to say "I told you so....." :-|


Isn't it a sheer waste to burn off the oil? Besides, smoke= more carbon in the atmosphere.
Are ROVs more competent than humans with oxygen tanks or is deep sea drilling too dangerous for humans?
The Americans are livid with BP, led by P Obama, I guess; but really they should stress co-operation. This spill requires that.
Take it easy, SMS. We learn from our mistakes.
The US was in a bad state then, and change was needed. Besides, there was no one else around.
But the public should be good watchdogs.
When do you reckon they'll succeed in controlling the rick again?

anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 9:35 pm

JR8 wrote:
anneteoh wrote:
JR8 wrote:...sorry for posting half-way through the epistle :)
[still on a dodgy little hyper net-book pre arrival of our cargo]


Have you surfaced from the dunes? I was clumsy with the colours . Is that the blackberry u're talking about. I have no idea about ipods and berries. Never have them. How's your new life, in Deutchland? Alles in ordernung? LOL


Let me take some more Berries, or pills. It is the same no?

Germany has lots of pork.


What pills?
Bacon's too salty for me. Yes, I remember the snichzels (how u spell it?) bratwursts, cold herring, gherkins and hey, some yummy gateaux. I like the rye bread and ham too. And, Henniken - all full of calories?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 10:35 pm

At the moment, the flow is a mixture of oil & gas. It's in a freeflow state so therefore cannot be controlled. Mostly they are burning the methane gases that are mixed in with the oil. Additionally, they are having to try to separate the water in the oil as well. As they are not at a production platform but a drilling platform, there are huge limitations on what they can do. As the moment, all energies are in slowing down the release of oil & gas into the water. If it were a production platform, then the pressures wouldn't matter and they could process the heavy oil in a controlled rate. At the moment, they cannot control the flow so have to do what they can. It's better burned off in the atmosphere than coating all the wetlands. No, it's not ideal, but when you have a massive train wreck or a bomb explosion where there is mass casualties, you try to staunch the flow, not do cosmetic surgery. You save that for when there is ample time. Some you lose, some you save and yes, there is always collateral damage. It's like sometimes you need to amputate some toes when frostbitten in order to keep your leg. Not ideal, but what has to be done in the circumstances.

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Postby nakatago » Tue, 22 Jun 2010 11:04 pm


anneteoh

Postby anneteoh » Wed, 23 Jun 2010 5:27 pm



Thanks for all the input SMS and Nakatago. This latest run down of the spillage events highlights two main issues:
1. International aid was turned down by white house
2. P. Obama accused the Mineral Research Services of corruption.

I'm so glad there were offers of help. Who turned that down? Would anyone like to start a petition to get white house or BP accept international aid? Since oil's still gushing out, the situation calls for urgent help. I mean, we can't sit comfortably and watch the ecological destruction, sheer wastage, plummeting shares ( BP shares also pay for council administration/ pensions etc) and sour relationships when offers for help can improve or end the leaks.
It's unclear who has the authority to allow help in the gulf. Is it white house ( P. Obama , I assume ) , BP or the Mineral Research Services?


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