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2nd Generation PR - URGENT HELP PLS

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bgmdd
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2nd Generation PR - URGENT HELP PLS

Post by bgmdd » Thu, 10 Jun 2010 9:27 pm

Dear All... I'm a UK citizen and a Singapore PR, My partner is an American citizen and resides here with me on an employment pass, we're not yet married. Last month our first son was born at Gleneagles, after much additional hoop jumping (given the unheard of situation of an un married couple having a baby here !!!) my son now has a Singaporean birth certificate, much easier to get were both a UK & a US passport which we now have also... So when I registered his birth at ICA I was given a 45 day visitors visa for him, tomorrow i have to take one of his passports and get a "Chop" to give him longer term right of abode here in Singapore. So here's the question... If i hand over my passport and he becomes my dependent I'm guessing he becomes a 2nd generation PR right there... No big deal if we plan on living here all his life but we probably don't... If he becomes 2GPR then we leave Singapore in say 4 years and IF NS still exists in 17 years time and IF on receiving a draft letter he decides not to return to an island he probably wont remember to serve NS when he could be finishing High School and chasing Cheerleaders then from what i read this may make it very difficult for him to get an employment pass here 10 years after that should he happen to want to move here in later life... With this in mind is there ANY way of him attaining dependent status / long term residency without becoming 2GPR ??? Many thanks

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Post by ksl » Fri, 11 Jun 2010 2:43 am

If i'm not wrong the Singapore birth certificate is just proof of birth in Singapore, the kid is not a citizen of Singapore. The child gets automatic UK citizenship, if the father is documented, not Singaporean. So you need to register the birth through the UK channels asap too. American citizenship I have no idea, maybe SMS or SE can shed some light. Of course you apply for the child pass, whatever that may be, probably dependant pass.

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Post by Mad Scientist » Fri, 11 Jun 2010 5:22 pm

ksl wrote:If i'm not wrong the Singapore birth certificate is just proof of birth in Singapore, the kid is not a citizen of Singapore. The child gets automatic UK citizenship, if the father is documented, not Singaporean. So you need to register the birth through the UK channels asap too. American citizenship I have no idea, maybe SMS or SE can shed some light. Of course you apply for the child pass, whatever that may be, probably dependant pass.
KSL

This is incorrect. Once a child is issued a SG Certificate since Dad is a SPR, he is A SGER He carries DUAL CITZENSHIP and the fun begins with his NS thingey.

MS
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 11 Jun 2010 5:40 pm

MS,

I think you will find that the child will not have either Singapore citizenship or PR. This is why the child should get a passport asap and either have right of abode stamped in it OR the parent applies for PR for the child. The child does not automatically acquire citizenship or PR just because the child is born in Singapore (unlike the US).

sms
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by Plavt » Fri, 11 Jun 2010 5:51 pm

I think this is still current, somebody like Vaucluse will be able to give a more concrete answer should he read this thread;


A person is a Singaporean citizen by birth if he or she is born in Singapore with at least one parent who is a Singaporean citizen.
However, a child whose father is a foreign diplomat who enjoys immunity in Singapore will not be granted Singaporean citizenship even if his or her mother is Singaporean. The gender-specific language of this clause allows an unusual scenario where a child born in Singapore whose mother is a foreign diplomat and whose father is Singaporean will obtain Singaporean citizenship by birth but not if the gender roles are reversed.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singaporea ... p_by_birth

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Re: 2nd Generation PR - URGENT HELP PLS

Post by Mad Scientist » Fri, 11 Jun 2010 6:04 pm

bgmdd wrote:If i hand over my passport and he becomes my dependent I'm guessing he becomes a 2nd generation PR right there... No big deal if we plan on living here all his life but we probably don't... If he becomes 2GPR then we leave Singapore in say 4 years and IF NS still exists in 17 years time and IF on receiving a draft letter he decides not to return to an island he probably wont remember to serve NS when he could be finishing High School and chasing Cheerleaders then from what i read this may make it very difficult for him to get an employment pass here 10 years after that should he happen to want to move here in later life... With this in mind is there ANY way of him attaining dependent status / long term residency without becoming 2GPR ??? Many thanks
Sorry KSL, SMS I misread the OP post :oops:You are right on this issue

To OP: NS will always and remain a part of SG life you can be assure of that

Dependant pass is thru MOM, PR application is thru ICA

If he decides to stay here and study, he can apply for student visa. This way he can decide later on if he wants to be SPR.
If he becomes 2nd Gen PR he will definitely has to serve NS.
Alternatively if you want him to get SPR and serve NS ,then renounce, he will be definitely able to return and find employment here as he is seen contributing to the national security of SG
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Post by ksl » Sat, 12 Jun 2010 2:04 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:MS,

I think you will find that the child will not have either Singapore citizenship or PR. This is why the child should get a passport asap and either have right of abode stamped in it OR the parent applies for PR for the child. The child does not automatically acquire citizenship or PR just because the child is born in Singapore (unlike the US).

sms
I totally agree with SMS interpretation, that PR for the baby is applied for and is not automatic, though a quick phone call should clear it up!

No problem mad scientist, I wasn't 100% sure but 99% sure :)

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Post by Arwen » Sun, 13 Jun 2010 8:43 pm

I think you can get a UK passport and get a LTSV for your kid. That works even if both parents are PR and it avoids the NS later for a boy.

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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 13 Jun 2010 8:54 pm

Arwen wrote:I think you can get a UK passport and get a LTSV for your kid. That works even if both parents are PR and it avoids the NS later for a boy.
Of course that works, but is it the best option? If the kid grows up here and all his kaki's are here and he is comfortable here, and then he hits the end of his schooling and then what? If the Parents are still here as PR' the kid will have to leave home and go where? You don't really think the Gahmen are gonna let him do that without him paying the price do you? He'll never get an LTVP nor will he get an EP let along PR. What happens if he falls in love with a local girl? Or doesn't the kid get a chance to live his own life?
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by carteki » Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:29 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Arwen wrote:I think you can get a UK passport and get a LTSV for your kid. That works even if both parents are PR and it avoids the NS later for a boy.
Of course that works, but is it the best option? If the kid grows up here and all his kaki's are here and he is comfortable here, and then he hits the end of his schooling and then what? If the Parents are still here as PR' the kid will have to leave home and go where? You don't really think the Gahmen are gonna let him do that without him paying the price do you? He'll never get an LTVP nor will he get an EP let along PR. What happens if he falls in love with a local girl? Or doesn't the kid get a chance to live his own life?
It works both ways - what if he wants to leave the country and finish his schooling elsewhere and doesn't want to contribute to SG or the family leaves when he is 15 (correct that you automatically become due for NS after your 14th birthday?) If he decides to continue staying in SG, then he can do NS and get on with his life. If the decision is to leave SG - then he shouldn't have a problem if he's not applied for PR - not shutting the door, just deferring the decision until closer to the time. A great deal can happen in 18 years.

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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:05 pm

carteki wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Arwen wrote:I think you can get a UK passport and get a LTSV for your kid. That works even if both parents are PR and it avoids the NS later for a boy.
Of course that works, but is it the best option? If the kid grows up here and all his kaki's are here and he is comfortable here, and then he hits the end of his schooling and then what? If the Parents are still here as PR' the kid will have to leave home and go where? You don't really think the Gahmen are gonna let him do that without him paying the price do you? He'll never get an LTVP nor will he get an EP let along PR. What happens if he falls in love with a local girl? Or doesn't the kid get a chance to live his own life?
It works both ways - what if he wants to leave the country and finish his schooling elsewhere and doesn't want to contribute to SG or the family leaves when he is 15 (correct that you automatically become due for NS after your 14th birthday?) If he decides to continue staying in SG, then he can do NS and get on with his life. If the decision is to leave SG - then he shouldn't have a problem if he's not applied for PR - not shutting the door, just deferring the decision until closer to the time. A great deal can happen in 18 years.
It's 13 year old, but if the parents are planning on leaving, then they shouldn't be applying for PR in the first place. But it's an argument that neither side can win. So, I'll just agree to disagree. (Although why anybody would want PR now I don't know - I was a strong supporter until they started penalizing the "real" PR like myself because of the PR abusers of the past half dozen years or so.)

But in this global world, I would still tend to go with don't burn any bridges to any country if you can help it. Especially when so many MNC's like to put their HQ's here and a trip to Singapore seems de rigueur for the climb up the corporate ladder. Would be hell to be offered a huge position here only to be rejected due to something your parents did. The best way would have been for the parents to remain on EP status with the child on a dependents pass. Therefore, no decisions, and no penalties later either for the child due to the parent's actions. They parents knew the quid pro quo when they signed on the dotted line for PR. It's their decision that makes it difficult for their offspring. The gahmen has always been upfront about the NS issue.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by Arwen » Mon, 14 Jun 2010 11:07 pm

kids under 21 are granted a LTSV as well. if the kid is a female unmarried and under 25 finished with finished uni and no job LTSV.

the child can later either study for his Diploma, for uni in Singapore or for Uni outside Singapore. We have a lot of interns here and fresh grads and they all do the same, 90% of them are outside Singapore to study (most of them didnt want to study in Singapore to be honest ,parents are either PR or still on EP, kids went here to school for more than 10 years, and none of the guys did their NS and they did not get dropped out of the country). If the kid has a job it can apply for an EP and if they wish to work in the country they have studied in ok, work somewhere else ok.

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Post by Mad Scientist » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 4:48 am

Arwen wrote: the child can later either study for his Diploma, for uni in Singapore or for Uni outside Singapore. We have a lot of interns here and fresh grads and they all do the same, 90% of them are outside Singapore to study (most of them didnt want to study in Singapore to be honest ,parents are either PR or still on EP, kids went here to school for more than 10 years, and none of the guys did their NS and they did not get dropped out of the country).
Here is my 1 cent
I do not think it is that simplicitic as one would see.First of all this nation is only 45 years old. The NS thing is about the 43 years old. This EP thing is about 10 years approx.
For most who is on dependent pass or LTVSP or Student Visa, you forgot one thing they pay thru their nose on education, medical etc albiet NO FREEBIES. Unless mom and dad works with a very good expat package, yeah this is the way to go.
For most expats that I know or knew, it will be just enough.So MOST will opt for PR for their child if given the opportunity as it save them some money and alot of hassle. Look at this comparison http://www.ica.gov.sg/data/resources/do ... 080429.pdf
To enter Uni will cost you an arm and a leg if you are on one of these passess. Not to mention the quota system between locals or foreigners, quota on local racial group, quota on subject that is sensitive to SG National Security and the competition that comes with it.
I will not argue that studying from Primary to College will be a breeze apart from the fees involved which will be exorbitant.
If you are still on these passes after you complete the local Uni, most likely you will be offered PR status, if you refuse and go for EP under PTS scheme , you will be queuing like everyone else in the mainstream application where chances are one to thousands.Your record will show that you refuse PR b4 and the invisible hands that works in MOM will make you wait , delay and reject your application. Don't you think the Gahmen is that "GONG" ala stupid, after all the educations that the child had here while growing up and not wanting to contribute to SG economy. This algebraic equation has already been in place b4 the policy is being implemented. That is why many forumers here questioning the delay or reject of their applications. It is all in the equations':twisted:'
Of course choosing PR at earlier stage will come with its pros and cons. NS is one of it. This is a thorny issue and one has to consider it properly.
I have kids too and from my perspective if you have a child and the child has been living in that country for more than 15 years, to uproot and go back to the child native country or somewhere else will be a battle.
For one, they have local friends, lots of them, next, culture shock,gf or bf etc.......:shock:
Go to other forums on those kids that lives abroad and listen to what they say and you will be in for a shock. They took quite sometime to adjust to the new environment.
If you want to uproot make sure they child is less than 10 years of age , it is easier for them to adjust to the new environment.
I have been hopping from one continent to another for the last 50 years, I am still trying to adjust. We as adult understand this needs but have pity to the child's emotions,though they may not say it but it will definitely affect them . Have a heart for your children b4 you make the move
There are always two sides of a coin and both surface has its rough edges.:cry:
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 7:03 am

Well put MS. :wink:
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by Arwen » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 7:24 am

definetly there are good and bad things and a (non) PR child. But I think as expat or foreigner you never now if you will have to move in future to a new job and or back home because your family needs help and depending on when I move and the PR for my child can make it very difficult with the NS. For the later education and or CV. Despite the fact that the kid then has to move to SIN might not stay there the last 5-10 years and then has to get along there alone.

So PR for the kid is sth you really need to think about and it should not be decided within 5 mins :)

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