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NS - also for foreign born ?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 1:43 pm

vidya463 wrote:
ScoobyDoes wrote:As they say..... "Don't blame the Player, only the Game."

The "abuse" of the system was down to Government and Citizens. PR was too easy and given out willy nilly with no fixed format of how and when it would awarded. Citizens didn't complain, certainly not vocally and then only in the kopitiam.

The government at times were so desperate for PRs they over looked the system, and could do so because it didn't affect themselves or the citizens...... until it was too late. Then something more drastic needed to be done and this is where we are now.

It's incredible, here everybody complained PR was too easy and in Malaysia everybody complains PR is impossible to get. In this case i have to fully support the HK system or at least the way it used to be. Applications for PR only entertained after 7 full years of Temporary Residence and then only if you qualify - open and transparent.


I am a PR and I did not apply PR for my son. He is on a student visa here and he has got the option to apply for PR if he decides to stay here after his studies. This is only to avoid NS, as he will be treated as 1st gen PR, ie., if he decides to stay here.

I have undergone NS in my home country and I know the benefits. I would have definitly encouraged my son to undergo NS, but I do not want to commit on my son's behalf when he is still a minor (aged 14) and is not capable of taking his own decisions. In my opinion, this is the biggest drawback. Assuming that I commit him now, tomorrow he may not like it and blame me for that, which I want to avoid. Moreover, Singapore is not his mother country.

Instead, Govt of Singapore should give a choice to the person once they attain the age where they can take decisions, say 18, whether they should do NS and contiune to stay in Singapore or not, instead of asking the parents to commit on their sons' behalf and then hold them as defaulters.

It is true that foreigners get the benefits of socio-economic prosperity of singapore, but at the same time Singapore also gets the benefit of foreign talent and I would say, foreigners' contribution is as equal as singaporeans for creating this wonderful land. In my opinion, Govt of singapore is treating FT as some kind of beggers as far as NS is concerned, ie., their logic is " You have enjoyed the benefits so now you commit yourself or else....". Definitly this is not a matured policy.


You were mighty quick to point out that it was NOT his mother country. To me, that tells me you have no intentions of making Singapore you home either. So, with that in mind, why did you take up PR? Sounds to me like you just want to use the system like most of the other "New" PR's.

Actually you have taken away one of your son's options already!

Let's hope he doesn't find a girlfriend here who will not leave Singapore but wants to have your son stay here. Guess what! You son may just end up hating you because he will have to leave Singapore after he finishes his schooling because of your shortsightedness. (He WON'T have the option of applying for PR when he finishes.) Furthermore, he will never be allowed to return to Singapore for anything other than a tourist.

The government has a long memory. If you take up PR and do not take up PR for your children, especially the male ones, the reason, to the gahmen, is obvious. Therefore he will have an extremely difficult time getting an EP at all, let alone PR. And guess who he's gonna blame for his predicament? And rightly so. It's a double edged sword and unfortunately, the loser, through no fault of his own, it the child. The child inherits the sins of the father who doesn't obviously think past the end of his nose, let alone 18 years into the future. Of course, he can apply for PR and they may well give it to him, but the codicil is that he will still have to do NS, regardless of whether he's on the PTS or the Family scheme. Yeah, he may well come to hate his parents especially if he spends all of his growing up years here and all his friends are here, etc., etc. You do your son a big disservice.

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Postby vidya463 » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 2:13 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
vidya463 wrote:
ScoobyDoes wrote:As they say..... "Don't blame the Player, only the Game."

The "abuse" of the system was down to Government and Citizens. PR was too easy and given out willy nilly with no fixed format of how and when it would awarded. Citizens didn't complain, certainly not vocally and then only in the kopitiam.

The government at times were so desperate for PRs they over looked the system, and could do so because it didn't affect themselves or the citizens...... until it was too late. Then something more drastic needed to be done and this is where we are now.

It's incredible, here everybody complained PR was too easy and in Malaysia everybody complains PR is impossible to get. In this case i have to fully support the HK system or at least the way it used to be. Applications for PR only entertained after 7 full years of Temporary Residence and then only if you qualify - open and transparent.


I am a PR and I did not apply PR for my son. He is on a student visa here and he has got the option to apply for PR if he decides to stay here after his studies. This is only to avoid NS, as he will be treated as 1st gen PR, ie., if he decides to stay here.

I have undergone NS in my home country and I know the benefits. I would have definitly encouraged my son to undergo NS, but I do not want to commit on my son's behalf when he is still a minor (aged 14) and is not capable of taking his own decisions. In my opinion, this is the biggest drawback. Assuming that I commit him now, tomorrow he may not like it and blame me for that, which I want to avoid. Moreover, Singapore is not his mother country.

Instead, Govt of Singapore should give a choice to the person once they attain the age where they can take decisions, say 18, whether they should do NS and contiune to stay in Singapore or not, instead of asking the parents to commit on their sons' behalf and then hold them as defaulters.

It is true that foreigners get the benefits of socio-economic prosperity of singapore, but at the same time Singapore also gets the benefit of foreign talent and I would say, foreigners' contribution is as equal as singaporeans for creating this wonderful land. In my opinion, Govt of singapore is treating FT as some kind of beggers as far as NS is concerned, ie., their logic is " You have enjoyed the benefits so now you commit yourself or else....". Definitly this is not a matured policy.


You were mighty quick to point out that it was NOT his mother country. To me, that tells me you have no intentions of making Singapore you home either. So, with that in mind, why did you take up PR? Sounds to me like you just want to use the system like most of the other "New" PR's.

Actually you have taken away one of your son's options already!

Let's hope he doesn't find a girlfriend here who will not leave Singapore but wants to have your son stay here. Guess what! You son may just end up hating you because he will have to leave Singapore after he finishes his schooling because of your shortsightedness. (He WON'T have the option of applying for PR when he finishes.) Furthermore, he will never be allowed to return to Singapore for anything other than a tourist.

The government has a long memory. If you take up PR and do not take up PR for your children, especially the male ones, the reason, to the gahmen, is obvious. Therefore he will have an extremely difficult time getting an EP at all, let alone PR. And guess who he's gonna blame for his predicament? And rightly so. It's a double edged sword and unfortunately, the loser, through no fault of his own, it the child. The child inherits the sins of the father who doesn't obviously think past the end of his nose, let alone 18 years into the future. Of course, he can apply for PR and they may well give it to him, but the codicil is that he will still have to do NS, regardless of whether he's on the PTS or the Family scheme. Yeah, he may well come to hate his parents especially if he spends all of his growing up years here and all his friends are here, etc., etc. You do your son a big disservice.


I took the PR because we were allowed to apply for it. And it is still not mandotory to apply PR as a FAMILY as a whole.

We as parents are responsible for our children's well being as for as their upbring and education are concerned(both acadimic and moral education), and are not responsible for their girlfriends decisions which are thrusted upon them. Tomorrow if he blames me for the reason you have stated, I truly wouldn't bother.

Moreover, he was born in his mother land and not in singapore, I would be quite contented if I did not jeopardise his citizenship status in his mother land. Singapore PR status is really secondary compared to the citizenship of our country.

Saying all this, I would really encourage my son to take up NS either in singapore or his country (it is not compulsory there), but I do not want to commit on his behalf to a foreign country while he is still a minor.
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Postby Saint » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 2:22 pm

vidya463 wrote:
I took the PR because we were allowed to apply for it. And it is still not mandotory to apply PR as a FAMILY as a whole.

Really can't wait for the Gahmen to close this loophole

We as parents are responsible for our children's well being as for as their upbring and education are concerned(both acadimic and moral education), and are not responsible for their girlfriends decisions which are thrusted upon them. Tomorrow if he blames me for the reason you have stated, I truly wouldn't bother.

As parents you are already making decisions for your son's adulthood as well beacause as SMS has alway correctly memtioned, once he finishes his studies he'll have to most probably leave Singapore. That's a decision you've already made for him!

Moreover, he was born in his mother land and not in singapore, I would be quite contented if I did not jeopardise his citizenship status in his mother land. Singapore PR status is really secondary compared to the citizenship of our country.

Saying all this, I would really encourage my son to take up NS either in singapore or his country (it is not compulsory there), but I do not want to commit on his behalf to a foreign country while he is still a minor.

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Postby vidya463 » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 2:46 pm

Saint wrote:
vidya463 wrote:
As parents you are already making decisions for your son's adulthood as well beacause as SMS has alway correctly mentioned, once he finishes his studies he'll have to most probably leave Singapore. That's a decision you've already made for him!


Exactly. As long as he can still go back to his country, I am quite OK.

Until he attains the age where he can take his own decisions, I will not commit him to any other country. If he decides to stay in singapore and this Govt allows, with or without NS, well and ok, or else, world is still big enough.

What I am trying to say is, Doing NS in a foreign country should be his own decision and not of his parents. I am not against him doing NS in singapore, but the choice should be given to boys atleast after they attain 18 yrs.

If any one wants to surrender his citizenship, they have to attain 21 yrs of age. They are not allowed to do it not earlier than that age.

That means, your gahmen do not allow parents to renounce the kids citizenship, but why do they want PR parents to commit on their children's behalf ? quite strange!!!
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Postby vidya463 » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 3:36 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Yep, it was the abusers of PR that brought about our current lack of benefits into the ever downward spiral. And they wonder why the long-stayers don't think too highly of them. The benefits used to be sufficient hence my pro-PR stance here for many years. However, now, thanks to the abusers of the system, my benefits have been eroded greatly at a time when I'm more likely to need them (as I get closer and closer to retirement and that point in our lives when medical issues tend to crop up more and more).

As far as the obligations are concerned, nobody forces anybody to sign on the dotted line when requesting PR. Therefore, one accepts the obligations up front and therefore have no issue. If they do, they don't need to apply for PR in the first place. If they do, they are abusers. Pure and simple.


I would say, the benefits eroded not because of the abuse, but because of the saturation.

In the initial stage, Singapore had the requirement to attract more FT and the Gahmen dangled more carrots and once the application for PRs started pouring, they withdrew the carrots.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 4:45 pm

vidya463 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:Yep, it was the abusers of PR that brought about our current lack of benefits into the ever downward spiral. And they wonder why the long-stayers don't think too highly of them. The benefits used to be sufficient hence my pro-PR stance here for many years. However, now, thanks to the abusers of the system, my benefits have been eroded greatly at a time when I'm more likely to need them (as I get closer and closer to retirement and that point in our lives when medical issues tend to crop up more and more).

As far as the obligations are concerned, nobody forces anybody to sign on the dotted line when requesting PR. Therefore, one accepts the obligations up front and therefore have no issue. If they do, they don't need to apply for PR in the first place. If they do, they are abusers. Pure and simple.


I would say, the benefits eroded not because of the abuse, but because of the saturation.

In the initial stage, Singapore had the requirement to attract more FT and the Gahmen dangled more carrots and once the application for PRs started pouring, they withdrew the carrots.


It's people like you I am talking about. It's obvious you don't have a clue. Having been here over a quarter of a century, I believe I do know what the situation was, is, and is coming to. The requirements for PR did not and has not changed in the past 30 years. Neither did the benefits (carrots) or codicils (paybacks) if you take it up. What HAS changed is the mentality of the newer generation of mememe selfish users and abusers of what this country was willing and able to offer provided one accepted their quid pro quo. Hopefully, they will soon realize that the PRs who have not made their whole families PR but have them here to enjoy to standard of living that you cannot enjoy in your own country, are just abusers and will toss them out of the country. Or at least refuse to grant them re-entry permits thereby giving you the choice to remain here or lose your PR the first time you leave the country to go back to your "motherland". One can only pray anyway. :cool:

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Postby vidya463 » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 5:06 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
It's people like you I am talking about. It's obvious you don't have a clue. Having been here over a quarter of a century, I believe I do know what the situation was, is, and is coming to. The requirements for PR did not and has not changed in the past 30 years. Neither did the benefits (carrots) or codicils (paybacks) if you take it up. What HAS changed is the mentality of the newer generation of mememe selfish users and abusers of what this country was willing and able to offer provided one accepted their quid pro quo. Hopefully, they will soon realize that the PRs who have not made their whole families PR but have them here to enjoy to standard of living that you cannot enjoy in your own country, are just abusers and will toss them out of the country. Or at least refuse to grant them re-entry permits thereby giving you the choice to remain here or lose your PR the first time you leave the country to go back to your "motherland". One can only pray anyway. :cool:


Sorry, I dont know what the situation was. All I know is that I was born in a particular country and my son was born in that same country. I have come here for profession and will go back one day. If my son wants to stay in this countr, it should be his own decision and not mine.

I would like to just narrate how I happen to come to this country in the first place. The PM of this country happend to visit mine, sometime around 1998-99, and gave a statement saying that your country has a lot of technical manpower, lend us some. Many not be these exact words, but the meaning was there and then I dicided to try to migrate, they allowed me to apply for PR, I applied and got the PR. I am paying all my tax and also with my technical profession, I am benefiting singapore, I also get the benefit at the same time.

What is the obligation you people are talking about!!!

If singaporeans do not want to give birth to more kids and their population is dwindling, are we responsible for that? Let the govt make a rule saying that every singapore women who is a citizen should give birth to atleast 4 kids and enforce it strictly with immediate effect, I will be quite happy.
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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 5:18 pm

vidya463 wrote:


If any one wants to surrender his citizenship, they have to attain 21 yrs of age. They are not allowed to do it not earlier than that age.

Correct on the 21 yrs of age but incorrect on the notion per se. By 16 and a half he will be given a choice to take up or not albeit NS or not. By 18 if he refuse, his student visa is canceled and he has to leave SG . This goes the same for student visa and 2nd Gen PR

That means, your gahmen do not allow parents to renounce the kids citizenship, but why do they want PR parents to commit on their children's behalf ? quite strange!!!

What is so strange about this ? SG NS is the exact mould from the Israel Conscription Law which was enacted in 1967 and enforced in 1972.The Korean, Taiwanese, Thais among other all have some form of NS
When you live in one country as a PR you take the good and the bad in one bowl. You can't get to choose to take what is beneficial to you only and not accepting what is required for you to do. Yes, you will argue all your might that this is "strange" or not fair blah blah blah blah.
At the end of the day why work and live here if you do not agree with what the Gahmen policy is which was carefully thought out years ago. You may see this policy as strange and unfair but the Gahmen see it as working perfectly and eradicating those free loaders.
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Postby vidya463 » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 5:26 pm

Well Mr SMS, Good luck to you.
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Postby vidya463 » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 5:27 pm

vidya463 wrote:Well Mr SMS, Good luck to you.


Sorry, it should have be Mr. MS
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 5:48 pm

vidya463 wrote:
Sorry, I dont know what the situation was. All I know is that I was born in a particular country and my son was born in that same country. I have come here for profession and will go back one day. If my son wants to stay in this countr, it should be his own decision and not mine.

I would like to just narrate how I happen to come to this country in the first place. The PM of this country happend to visit mine, sometime around 1998-99, and gave a statement saying that your country has a lot of technical manpower, lend us some. Many not be these exact words, but the meaning was there and then I dicided to try to migrate, they allowed me to apply for PR, I applied and got the PR. I am paying all my tax and also with my technical profession, I am benefiting singapore, I also get the benefit at the same time.

What is the obligation you people are talking about!!!

If singaporeans do not want to give birth to more kids and their population is dwindling, are we responsible for that? Let the govt make a rule saying that every singapore women who is a citizen should give birth to atleast 4 kids and enforce it strictly with immediate effect, I will be quite happy.


You do know the meaning of the word "resident" correct? And you also know the meaning of the word "Permanent" as well, right? Then you should have seen the conflict in the two statements of your post above. You are exactly the type of abuser we are talking about. This country doesn't need you that badly, believe me. Yeah, they offered you PR, and you were made aware of the costs of accepting same when you took it. Today, you don't like the agreement you made. With luck, your pact with the gahmen here will be rescinded and you can go back to your 'motherland' that you 'intend' to go back to anyway. It's better sooner than later as that way somebody, who wants and deserves it, can take your place. :-|

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 6:04 pm

ScoobyDoes wrote:
vidya463 wrote:

I'm not against NS as a principle, only here in how it is applied to foreigners, with foreign passports, who don't really benefit these days from being PR whilst at the same time being expected to fight for a country that is not their own.

If my son decides Singapore is his home, then fine but going through the International School System and being covered by an international medical insurance lowers to virtually zero the "benefit" of being PR. Okay, so can buy HDB........ yeah, right :roll:


Scoobydoes

This policy is not about monetary gain. This is a well thought out policy which is taken from another country i.e Israel and has been working well since then. If you want to live here be it PR or SC comes rain or shine you have to take everything in your stride. As a foreigner this timeline befalls on your child to decide between the perks and the "perky" all gel into one when he comes to that age of 16.He will be ask about PR , the ID card and its benefit
Yes, one may argue they are too young to understand but take a look at one aspect of criminal law. If a child commits a crime and below 16 he will be tried in a juvenile court but he is above that he will be tried as an adult in a sub court. Many countries like OZ, NZ, M'sia, Indonesia have this guide too.
It is the same here with NS
Just to compensate the time taken out out of their civilian routine to do the reservist for those that serve NS Reservist, they are being paid civilian pay including their rank commission and vocation in the Army to top it off. In my unit I have a judge, a scientist whose pay is huge and the Army still compensate them in full for their time in reservist.
3% of the Gahmen budget goes to defense and a big chunk goes to pay claims and NS men benefits.
What I am trying to convey yes, it is hard to understand from your POV but this is the way it is being run. It is either the Gahmen way or the Highway.
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Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 8:13 pm

Singapore really needs to decide what it means to be a PR. If I were a PR in the US, and I was, I was indeed 'permanent'. No qualifications with respect to job, employment... as long as a crime was not committed I would not be ejected from the US.

Compare that to the Singapore PR. I'm up for renewal in 2012 and the gahmen will not tell me what the criteria are for me to qualify. Ya, ya... for you purists, it's the re-entry permit... but in reality, the same difference.

Am I too old? Is my company making enough money? The reality of the situation at this stage of my life is that there is not much difference betweem a PR and an EP. I get 5 years instead of 2. I can open other companies. Other than that, I have no real long term security in Singapore... my PR can be pulled at any renewal cycle.

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Postby Koalabear » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 9:38 pm

vidya463 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
vidya463 wrote:
ScoobyDoes wrote:As they say..... "Don't blame the Player, only the Game."

The "abuse" of the system was down to Government and Citizens. PR was too easy and given out willy nilly with no fixed format of how and when it would awarded. Citizens didn't complain, certainly not vocally and then only in the kopitiam.

The government at times were so desperate for PRs they over looked the system, and could do so because it didn't affect themselves or the citizens...... until it was too late. Then something more drastic needed to be done and this is where we are now.

It's incredible, here everybody complained PR was too easy and in Malaysia everybody complains PR is impossible to get. In this case i have to fully support the HK system or at least the way it used to be. Applications for PR only entertained after 7 full years of Temporary Residence and then only if you qualify - open and transparent.


I am a PR and I did not apply PR for my son. He is on a student visa here and he has got the option to apply for PR if he decides to stay here after his studies. This is only to avoid NS, as he will be treated as 1st gen PR, ie., if he decides to stay here.

I have undergone NS in my home country and I know the benefits. I would have definitly encouraged my son to undergo NS, but I do not want to commit on my son's behalf when he is still a minor (aged 14) and is not capable of taking his own decisions. In my opinion, this is the biggest drawback. Assuming that I commit him now, tomorrow he may not like it and blame me for that, which I want to avoid. Moreover, Singapore is not his mother country.

Instead, Govt of Singapore should give a choice to the person once they attain the age where they can take decisions, say 18, whether they should do NS and contiune to stay in Singapore or not, instead of asking the parents to commit on their sons' behalf and then hold them as defaulters.

It is true that foreigners get the benefits of socio-economic prosperity of singapore, but at the same time Singapore also gets the benefit of foreign talent and I would say, foreigners' contribution is as equal as singaporeans for creating this wonderful land. In my opinion, Govt of singapore is treating FT as some kind of beggers as far as NS is concerned, ie., their logic is " You have enjoyed the benefits so now you commit yourself or else....". Definitly this is not a matured policy.


You were mighty quick to point out that it was NOT his mother country. To me, that tells me you have no intentions of making Singapore you home either. So, with that in mind, why did you take up PR? Sounds to me like you just want to use the system like most of the other "New" PR's.

Actually you have taken away one of your son's options already!

Let's hope he doesn't find a girlfriend here who will not leave Singapore but wants to have your son stay here. Guess what! You son may just end up hating you because he will have to leave Singapore after he finishes his schooling because of your shortsightedness. (He WON'T have the option of applying for PR when he finishes.) Furthermore, he will never be allowed to return to Singapore for anything other than a tourist.

The government has a long memory. If you take up PR and do not take up PR for your children, especially the male ones, the reason, to the gahmen, is obvious. Therefore he will have an extremely difficult time getting an EP at all, let alone PR. And guess who he's gonna blame for his predicament? And rightly so. It's a double edged sword and unfortunately, the loser, through no fault of his own, it the child. The child inherits the sins of the father who doesn't obviously think past the end of his nose, let alone 18 years into the future. Of course, he can apply for PR and they may well give it to him, but the codicil is that he will still have to do NS, regardless of whether he's on the PTS or the Family scheme. Yeah, he may well come to hate his parents especially if he spends all of his growing up years here and all his friends are here, etc., etc. You do your son a big disservice.


I took the PR because we were allowed to apply for it. And it is still not mandotory to apply PR as a FAMILY as a whole.

We as parents are responsible for our children's well being as for as their upbring and education are concerned(both acadimic and moral education), and are not responsible for their girlfriends decisions which are thrusted upon them. Tomorrow if he blames me for the reason you have stated, I truly wouldn't bother.

Moreover, he was born in his mother land and not in singapore, I would be quite contented if I did not jeopardise his citizenship status in his mother land. Singapore PR status is really secondary compared to the citizenship of our country.

Saying all this, I would really encourage my son to take up NS either in singapore or his country (it is not compulsory there), but I do not want to commit on his behalf to a foreign country while he is still a minor.


Then you should not think about PR at all unless you are confident you wont step into Singapore ever again after letting your son default (which my friends did and never regretted). The thorny issue is you will never know how well your son adapts to Singapore so that is a significant risk you just have to take. Its part of PR package.

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Postby Koalabear » Fri, 04 Jun 2010 9:41 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:Singapore really needs to decide what it means to be a PR. If I were a PR in the US, and I was, I was indeed 'permanent'. No qualifications with respect to job, employment... as long as a crime was not committed I would not be ejected from the US.

Compare that to the Singapore PR. I'm up for renewal in 2012 and the gahmen will not tell me what the criteria are for me to qualify. Ya, ya... for you purists, it's the re-entry permit... but in reality, the same difference.

Am I too old? Is my company making enough money? The reality of the situation at this stage of my life is that there is not much difference betweem a PR and an EP. I get 5 years instead of 2. I can open other companies. Other than that, I have no real long term security in Singapore... my PR can be pulled at any renewal cycle.


I thought Singapore already decided? Its a glorified employment pass that lets you have some monetary benefits over the other EPs, but dumps you off the sea like other EPs when you are no longer contributing to their gdp.


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