NS - also for foreign born ?

[HK_Annie]

Hi everyone,
Thanks for this fantastic, informative forum. We are a Western family current live in HK and will be moving to Singapore soon. I have two sons, aged 8 and 10. We have been thinking of applying for PR and eventually citizenship in Singapore but all this talk of National Service and how strict it all is, has me reconsidering things. Both my boys were born in Holland, will they have to do national service if we become Singaporean citizen even if they weren't born in Singapore ?
Please help.
Thanks in advance
Kind Regards
Annie

[revhappy]

Yes. Regardless of where they were born, second generation Male PRs are NS liable.

[HK_Annie]

Thanks for your response.

Ah man !! That's not good.
Is it a common thing for western guys to do NS in Singapore ? Can't imagine your answer to be yes...
And will they then also have to be available for further service of 40 days per year until they are 40 ?? Or did I misunderstand that bit ?

[sundaymorningstaple]

Why can't you imagine yes?

It's becoming more and more common as there are more and more westerners taking up citizenship here. Even those who are 2nd Gen PR's will have to do NS. Actually NS is good. Hopefully, not everybody thinks like you do. If nobody had to do NS, this country would be a part of Malaysia or Indonesia real quick don't you think? Then you wouldn't want to stay here would you.

Everybody wants to listen to the nice music but nobody wants to pay the piper. Fortunately, there are those like me who insist that their sons do military service to help them grow up and also to pay back this country for what it is giving them. That, along with the networks that they build while in NS, are worth possibly more than an MBA in the long run.

Yes, if they are still in Singapore and still PR's or Citizens they are required to do reservists training as well but it's rarely 40 days a year. More like 14-21 days but rarely all at one go. Even then it's possible to get exemptions for a lot of them.

[Vaucluse]

It's all a bit typical . . . let's have all the advantages but we want none of the obligations . . . plus: we're white!!!!!! Can't have our children mix with locals.

Geez, the attitude of some people amazes me.

HK-Annie; why do you want to take up Singapore PR?

[ScoobyDoes]

It's all a bit typical . . . let's have all the advantages but we want none of the obligations . . . plus: we're white!!!!!! Can't have our children mix with locals.

Geez, the attitude of some people amazes me.

HK-Annie; why do you want to take up Singapore PR?

V, we often see eye-to-eye more often than not and whilst i would say yes, take the advantages then must pay something back, the reality these days is that PR doesn't really afford much benefit these days.

Certainly not so many benefits as to make it worthwhile to risk ones life for a country not my own. It may be more accurate to say this is the case if we are from a Western society than (hand in fire) from somewhere stepping UP to Singapore.

We pay far more in taxes to be given more right to the so called "advantages" than would be counted by doing NS.

Let's face it anyway, at the first sign of real trouble all the PRs would be straight in a taxi to Changi. You only need to look at the handover of HK back to the mainland to illustrate where loyalties often lie. I saw it first hand and the numbers of people buggering out to Australia, Canada and the UK was a real surprise...... I mean, what did these people think the Red Army was going to do to the place?

[raden888]

the reality these days is that PR doesn't really afford much benefit these days.

I wonder why? Perhaps too many in the mould of the OP....

[sundaymorningstaple]

Yep, it was the abusers of PR that brought about our current lack of benefits into the ever downward spiral. And they wonder why the long-stayers don't think too highly of them. The benefits used to be sufficient hence my pro-PR stance here for many years. However, now, thanks to the abusers of the system, my benefits have been eroded greatly at a time when I'm more likely to need them (as I get closer and closer to retirement and that point in our lives when medical issues tend to crop up more and more).

As far as the obligations are concerned, nobody forces anybody to sign on the dotted line when requesting PR. Therefore, one accepts the obligations up front and therefore have no issue. If they do, they don't need to apply for PR in the first place. If they do, they are abusers. Pure and simple.

[ScoobyDoes]

As they say..... "Don't blame the Player, only the Game."

The "abuse" of the system was down to Government and Citizens. PR was too easy and given out willy nilly with no fixed format of how and when it would awarded. Citizens didn't complain, certainly not vocally and then only in the kopitiam.

The government at times were so desperate for PRs they over looked the system, and could do so because it didn't affect themselves or the citizens...... until it was too late. Then something more drastic needed to be done and this is where we are now.

It's incredible, here everybody complained PR was too easy and in Malaysia everybody complains PR is impossible to get. In this case i have to fully support the HK system or at least the way it used to be. Applications for PR only entertained after 7 full years of Temporary Residence and then only if you qualify - open and transparent.

[Koalabear]

As they say..... "Don't blame the Player, only the Game."

The "abuse" of the system was down to Government and Citizens. PR was too easy and given out willy nilly with no fixed format of how and when it would awarded. Citizens didn't complain, certainly not vocally and then only in the kopitiam.

The government at times were so desperate for PRs they over looked the system, and could do so because it didn't affect themselves or the citizens...... until it was too late. Then something more drastic needed to be done and this is where we are now.

It's incredible, here everybody complained PR was too easy and in Malaysia everybody complains PR is impossible to get. In this case i have to fully support the HK system or at least the way it used to be. Applications for PR only entertained after 7 full years of Temporary Residence and then only if you qualify - open and transparent.

too bad singapore doesnt have the bargaining chips of hong kong.

[Koalabear]

Why can't you imagine yes?

It's becoming more and more common as there are more and more westerners taking up citizenship here. Even those who are 2nd Gen PR's will have to do NS. Actually NS is good. Hopefully, not everybody thinks like you do. If nobody had to do NS, this country would be a part of Malaysia or Indonesia real quick don't you think? Then you wouldn't want to stay here would you.

Everybody wants to listen to the nice music but nobody wants to pay the piper. Fortunately, there are those like me who insist that their sons do military service to help them grow up and also to pay back this country for what it is giving them. That, along with the networks that they build while in NS, are worth possibly more than an MBA in the long run.

Yes, if they are still in Singapore and still PR's or Citizens they are required to do reservists training as well but it's rarely 40 days a year. More like 14-21 days but rarely all at one go. Even then it's possible to get exemptions for a lot of them.

While I do not find NS that valuable as a ticket to remain in singapore (the world is very big and my ns defaulter friends are doing great), I just don't know why its so hard for parents to accept NS. When I went back to serve, I thought I had to stay inside the camp for 2 years until I claim my annual leave. You can imagine the shock on my face when I learned that we can actually go out on weekends! The 2 years was a holiday vacation compared to armies around the world.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Yeah, I remember my military training days! 6 months before I saw the town the camp was in and then only for two days! Barracks life sucked! Especially in the swamps of Louisana at Ft Polk (home of Tigerland back in the 60s~70's) Aircon? What's that? A least one day a week when the humidity was over 100% but training must go on. The only relief was we didn't have to blouse our fatigue pants. And we didn't have maids to carry our packs. See the recent article about outsourcing some of the military crap? Accompanying editorial cartoon with a guy carrying a backpack for a soldier on march. (should have been a maid portrayed though).

[SGBoyxxx]

seriously is not tough to serve National services in singapore.

after 2 yr of serving

they will recall you back in camp training aka reservists.

Mostly once per year or two.

whereas every year you have to go for IPPT test.
if fail have to attend RT.

what most singaporean piss of NS is because of reservist and IPPT.
interupt their daily work.

[vidya463]

As they say..... "Don't blame the Player, only the Game."

The "abuse" of the system was down to Government and Citizens. PR was too easy and given out willy nilly with no fixed format of how and when it would awarded. Citizens didn't complain, certainly not vocally and then only in the kopitiam.

The government at times were so desperate for PRs they over looked the system, and could do so because it didn't affect themselves or the citizens...... until it was too late. Then something more drastic needed to be done and this is where we are now.

It's incredible, here everybody complained PR was too easy and in Malaysia everybody complains PR is impossible to get. In this case i have to fully support the HK system or at least the way it used to be. Applications for PR only entertained after 7 full years of Temporary Residence and then only if you qualify - open and transparent.

I am a PR and I did not apply PR for my son. He is on a student visa here and he has got the option to apply for PR if he decides to stay here after his studies. This is only to avoid NS, as he will be treated as 1st gen PR, ie., if he decides to stay here.

I have undergone NS in my home country and I know the benefits. I would have definitly encouraged my son to undergo NS, but I do not want to commit on my son's behalf when he is still a minor (aged 14) and is not capable of taking his own decisions. In my opinion, this is the biggest drawback. Assuming that I commit him now, tomorrow he may not like it and blame me for that, which I want to avoid. Moreover, Singapore is not his mother country.

Instead, Govt of Singapore should give a choice to the person once they attain the age where they can take decisions, say 18, whether they should do NS and contiune to stay in Singapore or not, instead of asking the parents to commit on their sons' behalf and then hold them as defaulters.

It is true that foreigners get the benefits of socio-economic prosperity of singapore, but at the same time Singapore also gets the benefit of foreign talent and I would say, foreigners' contribution is as equal as singaporeans for creating this wonderful land. In my opinion, Govt of singapore is treating FT as some kind of beggers as far as NS is concerned, ie., their logic is " You have enjoyed the benefits so now you commit yourself or else....". Definitly this is not a matured policy.

[ScoobyDoes]

I have undergone NS in my home country and I know the benefits. I would have definitly encouraged my son to undergo NS, but I do not want to commit on my son's behalf when he is still a minor (aged 14) and is not capable of taking his own decisions. In my opinion, this is the biggest drawback. Assuming that I commit him now, tomorrow he may not like it and blame me for that, which I want to avoid. Moreover, Singapore is not his mother country.

I'm with you 100% on that.

It will be my son's choice. At the moment he has a HK passport, is eligable for a British one and later can apply PR here. Which he chooses will be for his own thinking at the time though he's still pretty much a toddler.

I'm not against NS as a principle, only here in how it is applied to foreigners, with foreign passports, who don't really benefit these days from being PR whilst at the same time being expected to fight for a country that is not their own.

If my son decides Singapore is his home, then fine but going through the International School System and being covered by an international medical insurance lowers to virtually zero the "benefit" of being PR. Okay, so can buy HDB........ yeah, right