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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 12 Feb 2011 7:01 pm

@mojobeng; You are a very irresponsible parents. If you have serve the NS , you should know the regulation of NS . YOU should be shot dead for screwing your son future. I am very reluctant to help you but I pity your son.

mojobeng wrote:Hi, anyone can help me in this sticky situation?
My wife (OZ-malaysian chinese) and I ( Singapore) married in Singapore in early 1990’s. My son was born in Singapore 2 years later and my wife, an Oz citizen, who was on an employment pass then, registered him as OZ citiz and thus he has dual citizenship.

So wife has M'sia and Oz, you have OZ and Singapore, child has SG and OZ citizenship right ?? Child has M'sia PP ??

We returned with her to Australia permanently in 1993 when he was one and a half years old and had not returned apart from a few social visits. We now have 2 other children, all of them born in OZ plus another son. I am still Singapore but now converting to OZ citiz.

I did not inform CMPB at 13 or register at 16. No excuse as it was my own ignorance and stupidity as I did NS myself. In denial probably that maybe he might want to go back. Having read the blogs now, I now realised that we are probably in contravention of the enlistment act. Not
sure what to do now?

SURRENDER ?
Should we take the chance to approach CMPB? Is a fine a criminal offence barring entry to other life opputynities and visas?

Yes do it now. No fine will not bar you from entering SG. But not sure if this is only fine. High chance jail time
Is there a chance he can still be deferred till 21 for renunciation if he comes forward or will he be jailed?

No chance on deferment since he is in NS age now. Jailed yes maybe three to six months depends

Is it better to take the chance and stay away in case they do not ever know? So far no letters or notifications.

They know for sure . Only thing is you did not realise.

Am I also liaible for not reporting or registering him and can I enter Singapore?

YES BIG YES

Can I enter Singapore myself.

Better NOT

What about my other son who was born and grew up in OZ? Is he laible. I am in process of getting OZ citiz. He never had Singapore citiz

Ah.. the other one will be good as gold if does not has a SG citizenship


Thanks in advance.

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NS Deferment rejected

Postby mimo » Tue, 15 Feb 2011 8:07 am

Hi mojobeng,
Just curious why you have not reply to first question from MS yet. I suggest you still get advise from MS as he is the best person to help or to state the facts which from there you can have a better picture on next step. MS has help numerous people and i can understand he get a bit piss off when he see a case like this which if done properly in the begining, you would not have put your son in this situation.

I do understand how you feel at the moment as i have been through this seeminly hopeless situation. I suggest that you get in touch with CMPB and discuss/negotiate it. I think you still stand a very very small chance or otherwise your son can never step foot in Sin. again if he don't serve NS. wish you luck.

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Postby mojobeng » Tue, 15 Feb 2011 9:09 pm

Thanks MS and Mimo
Sorry for not answering. First time I am using a blog and didn't realised that there was a response. Feel quite bad about it but such is life as one can't turn back the clock. Was not intentional as we thought he jsu needed to renounce at 21. I obediently went thru NS route and did not know the situation for deferment. did reservist even before migrate.


So wife has M'sia and Oz, you have OZ and Singapore, child has SG and OZ citizenship right ?? Child has M'sia PP ??

Wife is now fully OZ. she was born in Singapore pte hospital and stayed for fewdays and left for malaysia. never knew she was Singapore but when she found out, she renounced Singapore citiz later as an adult. I have Singapore but was born a malaysian. PR Singapore and did NS. PR OZ for many years now but about to accept OZ citiz. applied last year. Child has Singapore and OZ but only used OZ passport from beginning.


Not sure what to do now?

SURRENDER ?

Should we take the chance to approach CMPB? Is a fine a criminal offence barring entry to other life opputynities and visas?

Yes do it now. No fine will not bar you from entering SG. But not sure if this is only fine. High chance jail time

sounds harsh. I cannot let him take the flak for mistakes I have made. Conviction means reduced oppurtunities as I understand it means a criminal conviction is it not? His ourse will not wait for him. means that limited travel thru countries like US eg visa and also professional registration after Uni.

can you clarify.......No fine will not bar you from entering SG


No chance on deferment since he is in NS age now. Jailed yes maybe three to six months depends

even if he did not enjoy socio economic benefits?

They know for sure . Only thing is you did not realise.

Am I also liaible for not reporting or registering him and can I enter Singapore?

YES BIG YES

Can I enter Singapore myself.

Better NOT

I have entered before recently but no problems. ??? out of ignorance , not arrogance!


What about my other son who was born and grew up in OZ? Is he laible. I am in process of getting OZ citiz. He never had Singapore citiz

Ah.. the other one will be good as gold if does not has a SG citizenship
no Singapore but concerned about Singapore by decent.

Thanks again in advance.

as they say, bitter pill is hard to swallow.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 16 Feb 2011 8:46 am

mojobeng wrote:
Conviction means reduced oppurtunities as I understand it means a criminal conviction is it not? His ourse will not wait for him. means that limited travel thru countries like US eg visa and also professional registration after Uni.[/color]

can you clarify.......No fine will not bar you from entering SG


even if he did not enjoy socio economic benefits?

I have entered before recently but no problems. ??? out of ignorance , not arrogance![/color]

What about my other son who was born and grew up in OZ? Is he laible. I am in process of getting OZ citiz. He never had Singapore citiz

Ah.. the other one will be good as gold if does not has a SG citizenship
no Singapore but concerned about Singapore by decent.

as they say, bitter pill is hard to swallow.


Ok... stop.. you have my attention now.
Let me answer and queries you afew
1. Conviction means yes reduced opportunities for employment but in US, UK and Canada there is a period where all the records wil be rescind as you have done your time. I cannot remember the period .
2. If he travels out of Singapore using SG PP then yes he has enjoyed socio economic benefit. The SG PP has more value then the Pink IC.
Did he ever use a SG PP from then till now for travelling ?
Did your second son holds SG PP at all apart from attaining SG SC by descent?
3. When you entered SG , what PP did you use ?
4. At this point in time , how old is both your sons?
5. Did your wife taken out all CPF money?
6. Did you hold any HDB apartment in SG?
7. Did you inform ICA of change of address to overseas when you migrate to Oz?
8. Did your first son received notice to pre register for NS?
9. Did you apply for EP for yourself and son when he turns 13?
10. Have you done NS reservist and how many cycle have you done?
11. Have you completed the 13 yr cycle?
12. Did you recieved a letter of discharge from NS duties when you turned 40?
13. When did you apply for Ozzie Citizenship and do you know when you should be able to get it ?
14. All your children are Ozzies? How many dual either SG or M'sia
15. Wife still dual M'sia and Ozzie?
16. Did you inform MOE where your children is schooling
17. Have both of you paid any SG taxes?
18. Have you inform IRA of your overseas status?


Reply to all the above truthfully. and I will guide you. I am not a wizard hence I cannot second guess if you do not want to tell me your problems.
I am here to help but if you do not co-operate , I cannot help you .
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Postby Plavt » Wed, 16 Feb 2011 2:49 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:1. Conviction means yes reduced opportunities for employment but in US, UK and Canada there is a period where all the records wil be rescind you .


Not true; UK records of convictions are permanent. Some are considered 'spent' after a period (three years I think). However, when you apply for certain jobs you will often be told you are not allowed to withhold information about spent convictions.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 16 Feb 2011 3:04 pm

Ok , my bad, I was trying to find the correct word to describe it. And you have said it "spent" was what I was trying to convey. Sorry
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Postby manutdfan » Wed, 16 Feb 2011 3:11 pm

Plavt wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:1. Conviction means yes reduced opportunities for employment but in US, UK and Canada there is a period where all the records wil be rescind you .


Not true; UK records of convictions are permanent. Some are considered 'spent' after a period (three years I think). However, when you apply for certain jobs you will often be told you are not allowed to withhold information about spent convictions.


Having said that, it does seem unlikely to me that the UK would hold it against an Australian that he did time in Singapore for not turning up to do NS.

At a more practical level though it may mean if his options for the Kangaroo route are restricted!

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Postby Plavt » Wed, 16 Feb 2011 5:48 pm

manutdfan wrote:Having said that, it does seem unlikely to me that the UK would hold it against an Australian that he did time in Singapore for not turning up to do NS.



I wasn't referring to just the NS issue, just correcting MS as to the law in general. Athough as regards a conviction it seems you may well be wrong;

http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-04971.pdf

This paragraph makes interesting reading, I don't know about Singapore but Australia will definitely share information;


1.3 Access to information
How the UK immigration authorities get information about a person’s conviction in another
country is a different matter. The UK does not have unfettered access to other countries’
criminal records databases, but countries do share specific information. Some police
information would show up on the UK’s ‘warnings index’ and other databases against which
people applying to come to the UK are checked,
7
as would people identified by Interpol as
being of interest. The UK’s warnings index has over 17 million entries.

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Postby mojobeng » Wed, 16 Feb 2011 8:50 pm

Hi MS, Thanks for reply

Did he ever use a SG PP from then till now for travelling ?
PP lost? but wife recall trip to JB at few months old.none else.

Did your second son holds SG PP at all apart from attaining SG SC by descent?
NO

3. When you entered SG , what PP did you use ?
Singapore.

4. At this point in time , how old is both your sons?
18.8

5. Did your wife taken out all CPF money?
Y

6. Did you hold any HDB apartment in SG?
Y sold many years ago.

7. Did you inform ICA of change of address to overseas when you migrate to Oz?
Y, more than once

8. Did your first son received notice to pre register for NS?
No. not for anything

9. Did you apply for EP for yourself and son when he turns 13?
myself- all throughout. son - no. didn't know.

10. Have you done NS reservist and how many cycle have you done?
about 4-5 I tink, not sure.

11. Have you completed the 13 yr cycle?
no, left b4 that


12. Did you recieved a letter of discharge from NS duties when you turned 40?
Y, they have my address for all exit permits and notifications.

13. When did you apply for Ozzie Citizenship and do you know when you should be able to get it ?
approved awaiting formalisation.

14. All your children are Ozzies? How many dual either SG or M'sia
Y only one dual CT


15. Wife still dual M'sia and Ozzie?
Ozzie only

16. Did you inform MOE where your children is schooling
father told them when they called his home( corr addrs). told them we left country at 1.

17. Have both of you paid any SG taxes?
yes in the past. nothing owing.

18. Have you inform IRA of your overseas status?
yes. recieved IR8 many years after arrival.

Thanks for your intrest.
from your questioning, sounds grim and dead end.

could we PM for more details/clarification?
mojobeng@gmail.com

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Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 17 Feb 2011 5:32 am

Plavt wrote:This paragraph makes interesting reading, I don't know about Singapore but Australia will definitely share information;


Yes I agree , UK do share with Oz, NZ those you mentioned and taxation among other things. I know I got stung once because of this.

The extradition treaty between UK and Singapore does not compromise citizen information. It is not a global thing. No one country has extradition treaty will all the countries in the world
Those countries that fought on the war on terror or involved in the rebuilding of Afghanistan, Iraq only disclose terror suspect , names.
Shared information at the interpol are for those that committed heinous crime, fraud etc. NS offence although is an offense per se is not shared with other countries. There are few times where extradition were made from countries when the NS men went AWOL / Deserted during NS. Very rare cases and special category of people that really made this possible.
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Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 17 Feb 2011 6:50 am

mojobeng wrote:Thanks for your intrest.
from your questioning, sounds grim and dead end.

could we PM for more details/clarification?
mojobeng@gmail.com


Had to ask all those tough questions. There are more but at present those question is sufficient enough to go forward for your case only. It is not dead and gloomy if you are providing all these as truthful as possible. I had many cases where the informants were testing my brain juice and at the end ridiculed me for all the informations I provided. Made me chased around the bush with their nonsensical infos. Pretty piss off , I must say.
Though I would like to have this under wraps with you but for the benefit others reading this, the initial reply will go out in the open. After this if you wish further assistance , make 5 post then PM. Sorry I cannot provide my e-mail address. If you wish to talk to me PM after 5 post .

OK, let's begin.........My thoughts are as follows. Correct me if I am wrong

1. I guess you used the SG PP for your son to travel out of Singapore and you dumped it after he attained his Oz citizenship and PP. In 1993 the PP is either 5 or 10 yrs, although you lost it, the SG PP has some years to go maybe One or 2 more years before it expires if it is a 10 year one.
2. Stop using the SG PP even if you have found it. not to travel with it at all. Same goes with the whole family if they have one too.
3. Under the law dual citizenship by descent if child of a Sger was born overseas and returned to attain SG PP. This minor is allowed to live in SG and study here. Travel on either one PP or have a right of entry stamp on the minor SG PP so that he can lives here even without applying for SG PP. Yours is the reverse as your child is born here in SG and you acquire foreign one soon after. As you are an SGer, your son is a Sger Fullstop. This overrides the foreign one unless you have informed SG ICA that your son has acquired one before the age of 10 (some say 5) this is disputable.
4. Based on your infos this will be my route going forward

a) I think you are under the radar as your child left at a young age and your whole family has renounce except yourself.
b) renounce your SG citizenship asap
c) as you have no CPF or anything else in SG yours will be a breeze. Do it asap.
d) If your family needs to travel do it with Ozzie PP after that
e) Then you go and ask someone in SG to go to CAB ICA and check if your son BC still listed in the population census. Do this after you have cleared yourself. I will tell you later if it is there.
f) Then comms with ICA providing your son foreign citizenship and PP.
g) Try to look for his SG PP as you need to make a photocopy of all his travelling even the empty pages as proof that he left at a very young age.
h) If you are NOT able to do that , you need to make a police report to that effect. It will be difficult as the travel pattern will make ICA decide if the child has benefit from SG socio economic. ICA can tracked your son SG PP travel pattern that is for sure. They are just trying to make you jump over hoops to get there that is all. Persevere.
Make sure you write detail explanation with all the supporting documents including yourself and wife Ozzie citizenship. You can leave out your other son from the equation.
i) If ICA allows you based on these then you are home free. You will recieve a letter for renounciation to get it notarise on all the docs.

If ICA does not allow and inform you to contact CMPB, you will told to contact either beYum Kah Leng , Esther or Ms Tan then it gets sticky
1. Chances are they will asked you to explain why you did not apply for EP for child etc when he turns 13 which is an NS offence under Enlistment Act and section 33 of the same act.
2. If it comes to crunches that you have to answer this charges back in SG with your son then it is your call to decide to go and clear it or toss it overboard. Do not come back at all to SG for a good measure
3. If you decide the latter travel using OZ PP. Chances are, you will pay a fine no more than 10 K max or 3 yrs jail. IMHO, your son's fine will not go to that extend as your family has left SG since he was ONE. You might get a fine too of 3K max for not carrying out your duties as a parent of NS Child but I do not think it will go to this extend as based on previous cases , the max was a fine of 5K only for child and parent $2K
4. If you chose not to go then appeal again but let's not go to that stage first . PM me after that once you are at that stage. I will try to be in this forum as long as I can. Good Luck and godspeed
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Postby manutdfan » Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:35 am

Plavt wrote:
manutdfan wrote:Having said that, it does seem unlikely to me that the UK would hold it against an Australian that he did time in Singapore for not turning up to do NS.



I wasn't referring to just the NS issue, just correcting MS as to the law in general. Athough as regards a conviction it seems you may well be wrong;

http://www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-04971.pdf

This paragraph makes interesting reading, I don't know about Singapore but Australia will definitely share information;



And would the Australians tell the Brits one of their own did time in third country for not doing the NS requirements of that country?

I'm not saying it's not going to make life more difficult - you might need to explain in detail to the Visa office in Sydney why the conviction shouldn't count against you - but it seems to me skipping NS in Singapore is hardly in the same class of crime as petty theft from determining if you're an "undesirable foreigner", never mind the more serious crimes.

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Postby Plavt » Thu, 17 Feb 2011 3:31 pm

manutdfan wrote: but it seems to me skipping NS in Singapore is hardly in the same class of crime as petty theft from determining if you're an "undesirable foreigner", never mind the more serious crimes.


The issue is whether somebody has a conviction and whether or not the information is available to another government. As to what the conviciton is that will depend on the respective country's criteria.

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Postby mojobeng » Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:01 pm

Thanks MS, for the detailed post. Brilliant lateral thinking. You must play chess a lot.


Assure you a real case and desperate for help. But you will understand the hinderances to openly seeking direct assistance from proper authorities.

1.Dunno when PP lost but looking for it, somewhere in the move. Never know that important until now. his OZ citiz was at from day 1. but Singapore PP would have expired long ago even if found, 10 years isn’t not?

2. Only one stamp to JB and never again.

3 .should have born in OZ instead. then don't have this mess. but in those days, as they say in army “blur like sotong”

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Postby mojobeng » Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:09 pm

Also had a friend here told me that despite being OZ 30 years, ICA refuse to let them renounce Singapore. told that if not withdraw cpf, re entry is future is possible despite renunciation. fact or fiction?


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