Should Personal Liberty Be Defended?

[Vaucluse]

Nick Clegg stepped in to defend the country's stand on personal liberty that's written in the constitution.

The UK has a Constitution? No, seriously . . .

[anneteoh]

This is a great abstract, fine for art but linguistically short of context. Don't worry about speaking up on errants of deomcracy -it's for the social good.

I read this three times and still have no earthly idea what it means

It wasn't the typo, I'm nimble-brained enough to jump that hurdle. It's the lack of actual content without the framework of grammar that have me thrown.

Should personal liberty be defended? Of course. Always. The Bill of Rights is there for a reason and are debated endlessly in the US, which is exactly what, I believe, the framers had in mind. As far as terror suspects are concerned, they either are protected by the Geneva Convention or Habeas Corpus.

Check your own grammar which I noticed wasn't always quite precise.
Besides, I don't belong to the old struturalist school of linguists, so you can preen yourself out there, out of my realm of consideration. Boot!

[Strong Eagle]

Besides, I don't belong to the old struturalist school of linguists, so you can preen yourself out there, out of my realm of consideration. Boot!

No, but you do sound like you belong to the school of pseudo intellectual blathering boneheads, quite convinced that you make perfect sense, in some erudite fashion, when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer... able to string together nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc... and with a seemingly large vocabulary... but without understanding or depth.

If one person calls you and ass, you can forget about it. If a dozen people call you an ass, you really ought to consider buying a saddle.

[sillingw]

No - The UK has no written constitution.

I suppose it could be argued that it is constituted in the laws, but it is mostly in unwritten agreements and mutual understanding.

As far as I understand it, the courts' decision was based on the presumption that should these individuals be returned to their home country (Pakistan) there was a probability that they would be tortured. To me, part of civil liberty is that if you use the freedom to act, then you must suffer the consequenses - UK law should not presume what would happen elsewhere and should repatriate people who wish to destroy the society that has given them the liberties they so obviously wish to destroy.

On the other side of the coin, some of the evidence was given in closed sessions as it was felt that the evidence would reveal too much information and put other lives in danger. But I also thought that the conlusion was that under UK law, there was probably not enough evidence to obtain a conviction even though the security authorities were certain they were right - If they could not use the evidence in open court, their case was weakened significantly.

[anneteoh]

Hmm... Did I stir up a hornet's (or at least some buzzing insect's) nest?

Anne does have a point in her critique of my post - I was speaking mostly in the abstract with some thinly(?) veiled references. Ok, perhaps I was pushing some buttons to see what kind of a rise I would get. And the bit about dystopia? I just threw that in because it had a nice rhythmic consonance with pseudo-utopia.

I cannot speak for the UK nor can I speak for Singapor (at least not until I start living here). I have only been too these countries as camera toting tourists and all I saw was the gloss and not what's underneath the veneer.

However - as an American, I am seeing a continual erosion of civil liberties post 9/11. Some bothers me and some don't. I think each of us will have a different place as to where to hold the line.

Some are not necessarily erosions of civil liberties - more constraints placed on our day-to-day lives. As long as these are fairly applied and are based on reason, I may be amenable to accept them.

We Americans (like most other countries) do have a history where these "constraints" were applied most unfairly and targeting distinct ethnic/racial/religious groups.

From slavery, to Jim Crow laws, to the WWII Nisei internment, to pushing Native American to remote reservations, to mass detention of Mid-Eastern looking people post 9/11, to the now anti-Hispanic laws being enacted under the guise of stopping illegal immigrations.

Almost every nation on earth has a similar history. To America's credit it is sufficiently open society that issues like these are not thrown under the rug - and that we can and will speak up against what is considered unfair or untenable. Yes, we can speak up. It is when we lose the ability to speak up - our rights will be been eroded so much that we will have lost. No, the terrorists will not have won - we will have lost.

This 15 hours gap in our discourse makes it difficult to have a vibrant discussion - I should be in the same time zone in a couple of months to take up the cudgel more firmly.

Boy, you do speak like a politician when you use the referential 'We.' Seriously, do you trust politicains or reporters - everything being subjective esp in the present mutilcultural contexts?

But thanks. I'm really enjoying your posts. You've brought a distinctive contribution to this forum that's already one of the best in the world ( just my limited opinion - I 've only posted on 3 forums ) The mods in this forum make sure of that!

Free speech is indeed everybody's right and an asset to every country if those in power accept that differences of opinion provide healthy options and are good at bashing our ego with its limited capacity and smallness of mind.

I appreciate your rendering of American history. I was inspired by the beauty and simplicity of an indigenous poem to go out there and trek into the natives' reserves. It was a culture shock; one could not help but feel depressed about the way the American natives were so shacked up in the extremes of America. There was slavery too, of course. It's a country that spells out good or evil, but it might be more complex . The upshot for me was I liked it all the same. It's a vast country - I travelled East-West, North-South and into Colorado before heading back to NY. Most people I met were crazy, generous and well-informed. They, esp, the youngers ones, are much more nationalsitic than the young Brits who are either apolitical or self-denigrating ( considered as cool ). But the times are changing, esp in the light of the current economic mismanagement in Europe.

I believe terrorism is so serious an issue, it deserves to go solo. It's not a straightforward discussion. There's much history, politics, morals, religions etc...it's the tip of an iceberg.

Don't worry about the time lapse, unless you're so stressed out. I was in NY as long ago as 1987 but even then, most guys appeared hyper stressed, esp. at the airport. I think language is one constant yardstick we people use to negotiate our meaning across all time zones and other differences. If I read your post centuries later, I'm sure your communication will still convey its meaning. Languages are a major technology of our civilisations, but we, might be constrained within our different cultures - as in the cases shown in studies in cross-cultural pragmatics.

Our literacy is dependent on our knowledge of the world and our understanding corresponds with what's in our field of knowledge.

I apologise if my semantics is dense; a move away from the basic structures which I find so pedantic. Our language bespeaks us.

So, you're still not yet in the garden city. I love the dot. If it's vibrancy that turns you on, you'll be smack right there! Orchard road on Saturday nights is a concoction of home with tourism. I dream of arriving in Changi (or departing - it's one airpot with free internet access). It was actually an America concept. I was invited to a few sessions of talk - all cutting edge stuff - given by the guy who dreamt up the vision; unfortunately, I can't remember names.

This is natural conversation speak so it's rushed but the cohesion's there; though come to think of it, I'm off topic. But responding to the threads in your post.

Safe journey and fantastic time in SG.

[ksl]

There is no such thing as democracy and liberties in acts of terrorism. Only national Security rules!

People need to wise up, that they have no voice, they are electorate numbers, that's all.

Victims of terrorism will remain victims for life. I know because I have had 10 years of active terrorism training and I am a victim of my own past. The UK have had 30 years of terrorism in its own backyard don't forget!

You can bet your life that all USA soldiers that have had to deal with guerilla warfare, now understand what terrorism is all about.

Once a policeman always a policeman, once a pro soldier always a pro soldier, once a victim always a victim....life goes on and we deal with it.

National Security will always take priority in any Country over democracy!

[road.not.taken]

Check your own grammar which I noticed wasn't always quite precise. Besides, I don't belong to the old struturalist school of linguists, so you can preen yourself out there, out of my realm of consideration. Boot!

My own grammar may not be up-to-snuff, but most can understanding the meaning of my posts. I believe Strong Eagle hit the nail on the head:

No, but you do sound like you belong to the school of pseudo intellectual blathering boneheads, quite convinced that you make perfect sense, in some erudite fashion, when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer... able to string together nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc... and with a seemingly large vocabulary... but without understanding or depth

What's the term for data entry? GIGO?

[anneteoh]

Besides, I don't belong to the old struturalist school of linguists, so you can preen yourself out there, out of my realm of consideration. Boot!

No, but you do sound like you belong to the school of pseudo intellectual blathering boneheads, quite convinced that you make perfect sense, in some erudite fashion, when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer... able to string together nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc... and with a seemingly large vocabulary... but without understanding or depth.

If one person calls you and ass, you can forget about it. If a dozen people call you an ass, you really ought to consider buying a saddle.

Oops , here goes free abuse, (not free speech if you know what I mean).

I'm just surprised that you're a mod here or anywhere else. Gang bullying is your game, so line up your like-minded cronies. I am similarly repelled.

Say what you like - the psychology of racist bullies like you is well known today. I'm aware how some boys go about bashing others simply because they don't really have the art of conversation, a small mind with absolutely no awareness of others and a brain in a box.

It's below my dignity to interact with you but I can't stop you spoiling my posts.Your criticism does not hold any water and smacks only of prejudice without evidence.

Don't worry, I'm not impressed with your parts of speech and basic pedantry. You might be able to show off a bit if you can speak other languages or have some decent manners, yob. I'm sorry if your pea brains cannot digest my discussions - a cliche you should have heard many times before. You don't have to participate in my threads little boy. We're from different backgrounds and cultures.

I don't assume I know everything; that's why I enjoy talking to educated guys with character but certainly not you who I avoided because you just don't have it. So stop stomping about like a lunatic.

If I remember right from my newbie post, you're an arrogant nobody but a barbarian out to terrorise Asians while showing your condescending acknowledgement of expats with your dictum, "THis is my territory mate, and you take it from me."

Sorry, we don't meet in the open ocean and I will teach my grandchildren to ignore you. Go and read some Gandhi. I need to.

[road.not.taken]

Besides, I don't belong to the old struturalist school of linguists, so you can preen yourself out there, out of my realm of consideration. Boot!

No, but you do sound like you belong to the school of pseudo intellectual blathering boneheads, quite convinced that you make perfect sense, in some erudite fashion, when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer... able to string together nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc... and with a seemingly large vocabulary... but without understanding or depth.

If one person calls you and ass, you can forget about it. If a dozen people call you an ass, you really ought to consider buying a saddle.

You're a disgusting, prejudiced, racist unashamed to show your bias and your attitude. I'm just surprised that you're a mod here or anywhere else.
Say what you like - the psychology of racist bullies like you is well known today.

It's below my dignity to interact with you but I can't stop you spoiling my posts. Your criticism does not hold any water and smacks only of prejudice without evidence.

Don't worry, I'm impressed with your parts of speech and basic pedantry. You might be able to show off a bit if you can speak other languages or have some decent manners, yob.

Stop flashing your cheap mirror to get noticed. I'm not your decoy, you Asian women basher. Fly home eagle.

I don't assume I know everything; that's why I enjoy talking to educated guys with character.

You're a riot anneteoh!

Of course you are interacting with SE, this is a forum.

An ass isn't a race, it's a species of animal.

You brought up your ethnicity and gender and Strong Eagle is home.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson: "sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here".

[x9200]

...when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer...

Got exactly the same thoughts. Could be a nice PhD. project with the initial data set on semantics fed perhaps from some statues.

[QRM]

Wooaa there Anneteo, you are doing yourself no favours by flying off the handle again, especially raving and ranting gibberish, If you are going to have a spaz session at least stick with the facts, come on shame on you playing the racist card, where did that come into the equation?

Its obvious from your post English is not your native language, which is fair enough its suppose to be mine and I am still having problems with it.

What is odd , Anneteo seem to have two persona, well three if you include the "everyone is a racist Asian woman bashing homophobic Philistine’ version.

Did you cut and paste the original post? That was very clear and an interesting post. Then you go off on one of your post that similar to reading a China product instruction manual.

You say you write like its “natural conversation speak”

[anneteoh]

...when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer...

Got exactly the same thoughts. Could be a nice PhD. project with the initial data set on semantics fed perhaps from some statues.

Boys, don't be so suspicious or shock. Chinese is the most difficult language to master and thoughts are from the Mind which is beyond your ken. It'll be peaceful for everyone if you simply mind your own buisness and get on with sharing your own ideas, if you have any.

[QRM]

...when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer...

Got exactly the same thoughts. Could be a nice PhD. project with the initial data set on semantics fed perhaps from some statues.

Boys, don't be so suspicious or shock. Chinese is the most difficult language to master and thoughts are from the Mind which is beyond your ken. It'll be peaceful for everyone if you simply mind your own buisness and get on with sharing your own ideas, if you have any.

I couldn't agree more Chinese is a difficult language to master, I think thats where you got it wrong, people are not here on this forum to master Chinese.

Yes the Chinese language is from the mind and its brilliant I love all the chinglish signs very humorous and poetic, could be your new sideline. Like I said before everyone is welcome here if we can understand the post. If English is not your mother tongue, why not try and keep it simple to start with that way we can all chip in and keep the dialog going.

[anneteoh]

[quote="QRM"]Wooaa there Anneteo, you are doing yourself no favours by flying off the handle again, especially raving and ranting gibberish, If you are going to have a spaz session at least stick with the facts, come on shame on you playing the racist card, where did that come into the equation?

Its obvious from your post English is not your native language, which is fair enough its suppose to be mine and I am still having problems with it.

What is odd , Anneteo seem to have two persona, well three if you include the "everyone is a racist Asian woman bashing homophobic Philistine’ version.

Did you cut and paste the original post? That was very clear and an interesting post. Then you go off on one of your post that similar to reading a China product instruction manual.

You say you write like its “natural conversation speak”

[anneteoh]

No, but you do sound like you belong to the school of pseudo intellectual blathering boneheads, quite convinced that you make perfect sense, in some erudite fashion, when in reality your sentences appear to have been thrown together by a badly programmed linguistic computer... able to string together nouns, verbs, adverbs, etc... and with a seemingly large vocabulary... but without understanding or depth.

If one person calls you and ass, you can forget about it. If a dozen people call you an ass, you really ought to consider buying a saddle.

You're a disgusting, prejudiced, racist unashamed to show your bias and your attitude. I'm just surprised that you're a mod here or anywhere else.
Say what you like - the psychology of racist bullies like you is well known today.

It's below my dignity to interact with you but I can't stop you spoiling my posts. Your criticism does not hold any water and smacks only of prejudice without evidence.

Don't worry, I'm impressed with your parts of speech and basic pedantry. You might be able to show off a bit if you can speak other languages or have some decent manners, yob.

Stop flashing your cheap mirror to get noticed. I'm not your decoy, you Asian women basher. Fly home eagle.

I don't assume I know everything; that's why I enjoy talking to educated guys with character.

You're a riot anneteoh!

Of course you are interacting with SE, this is a forum.

An ass isn't a race, it's a species of animal.

You brought up your ethnicity and gender and Strong Eagle is home.

In the immortal words of Jack Nicholson: "sell crazy somewhere else, we're all stocked up here".

Tell that to Lineas and please stop quoting others but come up with something more original. Curry your favour somewhere else.