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Another European county, Greece, goes bankrupt!

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Mad Scientist
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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 03 May 2010 9:20 am

tkuanhoo wrote:
earthfriendly wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... gvH_Idf_XQ

Japan has the highest debt to GDP of any industrialized countries and I read that it runs the risk of going bankrupt. Both SG and Japan have higher debt level than Greece and why is Greece more risky than them? Trying to understand the economics here.


Japan has a high level of debt but it has a lot of money in the bank at the same time, second highest amount of foreign reserves. And most of its debt are owned by citizens, that makes it safe.

This public debt measurement is very misleading. Singapore has a high debt because of the CPF government owes to the citizen (35% of everyone's total salary for life). Singapore's debt is 113% of GDP (including all the cpf money that needs to be paid to citizens), that means it is around 150 billion.

Singapore has around 260 billion in CASH right now. Not including Temasek and all the non cash assets which total TRILLIONS of dollars.

If Singapore draws out all its reserves today, everyone in Singapore can stop working for 3 decades while receiving still 5k sgd a month. That is how much money singapore has.


May I know how you come out with this number that is highlighted in blue. Please show me as you seems to know alot from your dreams....
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby x9200 » Mon, 03 May 2010 12:22 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:May I know how you come out with this number that is highlighted in blue. Please show me as you seems to know alot from your dreams....

MS, is Monday the 3rd, the weekend is over and you're still talking to this troll? :-k

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 03 May 2010 2:44 pm

x9200 wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:May I know how you come out with this number that is highlighted in blue. Please show me as you seems to know alot from your dreams....

MS, is Monday the 3rd, the weekend is over and you're still talking to this troll? :-k


X, I know, just piss off with this troll that is all. OK, I back off

Thanks for reminding me :)
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 03 May 2010 11:08 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
x9200 wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:May I know how you come out with this number that is highlighted in blue. Please show me as you seems to know alot from your dreams....

MS, is Monday the 3rd, the weekend is over and you're still talking to this troll? :-k


X, I know, just piss off with this troll that is all. OK, I back off

Thanks for reminding me :)


Actually. the thread has become interesting. If you look up Singapore on CIA world fact book, the numbers are correct. Singapore comes in at number 6, with public debt equal to 117% of GDP.

What I don't understand is where and what this debt is... might not be all bad.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 03 May 2010 11:44 pm

Could it be the CPF it is holding that actually belongs to the citizens? It is a debt as it is owed to each and every citizen and PR within and without the country. And the government pays interest at the rate of either 2.61 or 4% on that debt.

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Postby raden888 » Mon, 03 May 2010 11:44 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:Actually. the thread has become interesting. If you look up Singapore on CIA world fact book, the numbers are correct. Singapore comes in at number 6, with public debt equal to 117% of GDP.

What I don't understand is where and what this debt is... might not be all bad.


I believe a lot of this debt is bond related. The gahmen has been trying to create a SG bond market but then again I could be wrong.

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 04 May 2010 7:58 am

Mad Scientist wrote:Thanks for reminding me :)

You're welcome! :)

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 04 May 2010 8:02 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Could it be the CPF it is holding that actually belongs to the citizens? It is a debt as it is owed to each and every citizen and PR within and without the country. And the government pays interest at the rate of either 2.61 or 4% on that debt.

CPF is a strange debt but likely that's the case. On the other hand if a commercial bank is owned by the State does it also count to the debt?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 04 May 2010 8:51 am

Is a commercial bank considered commercial if it's owned by the government?

But yeah, I would think so, however, you would have to use the net and if the bank is commercial, e.g., profit oriented, then it wouldn't be a debt would it? At least as long as it's P&L is profitable that is.

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 04 May 2010 9:17 am

At least our troll was right here. The public debt alone could be definitely misleading.

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Postby subbuteo » Wed, 05 May 2010 2:41 am

I think CIA uses the outstanding Sing dollar Bonds as the debt number. Over the last 10 years, there was a need to development a deeper bond market even though the govt does not need to borrow. So they came up with benchmark issues every 2 weeks to draw a yield curve. It not meaningful as the system is flush with cash, therefore yields are close to zero. Which means they dont want you to buy their bonds, but its offered just for the record.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 05 May 2010 4:41 am

subbuteo wrote:I think CIA uses the outstanding Sing dollar Bonds as the debt number. Over the last 10 years, there was a need to development a deeper bond market even though the govt does not need to borrow. So they came up with benchmark issues every 2 weeks to draw a yield curve. It not meaningful as the system is flush with cash, therefore yields are close to zero. Which means they dont want you to buy their bonds, but its offered just for the record.


You lost me here. How did you come up with this ? I am not trying to ridicule you but just cannot understand the meaning of your posting

:???:
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Postby Vaucluse » Wed, 05 May 2010 9:59 am

Step back, everyone . . . and let a true professional explain. As you may, or may not know, I have a post-grad in economics (true).

So, if you follow the diagram you will see how the conclusion is arrived at:

Image



But yes, let Greece fail, the Euro will not suffer that badly.

PortugalItalyGreeceSpain
......................................................

'nuff said Image

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 05 May 2010 10:40 am

Thanks V.

Thanks for clearing that up.

YOU ARE A TRUE ECONOMIST and a Mathematician . I did not understand the last part of the equation as my Maths Teacher died when I was in College :lol:
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby earthfriendly » Wed, 05 May 2010 12:46 pm

But Greece is too BIG to fail. :P

and too small to succeed?


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