Gordon Brown UK puts his foot in it!

[raden888]

Whoa, looks like someone been smokin' something!

Myth1: Immigrants don't pay taxes. False. Most of them do.Informal economy exist everywhere, why do you think most blue collar workers prefer their services to be paid in cash and frown when you use credit??? Obviously, they aren't declaring a chunk of what they earn and they are regular everyday Britons.

Remember, the days when the plumber, electrician etc would take you for a ride (i.e waiting the whole day for them only to be charged with exorbitant rates), now you have a group of people who are doing the jobs on time . No wonder the former are huffing and puffing.

The main issue here is not the influx of EU immigrants and the likes but the local attitude.Their work ethic and attitude has to change to survive the new economy. Its not all about shagging your mates Mrs and beating up rival footy fans.

These new immigrants have what it takes to succeed because they have dreams and the drive whereas the locals do not.

[sundaymorningstaple]

For a moment there I could have sworn you were talking about Singapore! Actually, it's exactly the same if you think about it, except the WP holder here is allowed in by the Government but with heavy restrictions about staying here. Doing what? What local either won't do, or charge exorbitant rates to do. Same game, different jerseys!

[aster]

I actually read somewhere that legal immigrants to the UK (as in intra-European migration) are apparently the only group who add to "the system" while the rest takes money out.

The real problem is spend, spend and yet more gov't spend. Hang on, isn't that how Greece got into trouble?

[anneteoh]

Who says they don't? Recent renovation work where I live has been done by good number of Romanians who don't work for less than Britons and a good many Poles live here too who also pay taxes.

Hard to say, some do but not all pay taxes; esp. those in businesses or privately employed e.g. cleaners, builders, plumbers, waiters etc

Some don't? How many born and bred Britons don't pay taxes? Who pays these immigrants who don't declare income? A plumber fixes a pipe for you and you say you don't need a receipt if he knocks 50 off . . . who is the culprit?

2. they do not send their money back to their own countries

Why shouldn't they? We do the same given the opportunity.
If 200,000 send 50% of their money back, there'll be less left for circulation in the country.

A fatuous argument at best. At any given time there are 6.329.450.660.000 sterling in circulation. Do you really believe that a few waiters and plumbers sending money home is depleting the country's reserves? That's simply laughable

3. they have to pay sufficient contributions before they can get benefits, health care, housing, free transportation for kids and over 60s.

Perhaps you believe some of the media-hype; a good number of immigrants aren't entitled to benefits unless they have been here X number of years. Although there is probably some substance in what you say, I have to admit I don't know the full details since I'm not an immigrant.

I didn't get this from any direct source but from what I SEE going around me. I know very well what go on in a lot of schools for sure. Visit any hospital and there'll be crowds of people speaking different tongues, looking shabby and smelly etc...who can deny such needs; but economics is a hard task master.\

Wow, looking shabby and smelly? I thought, initially, that your posts were not too bad, but this one is well below par. Smelly and shabby . . .speaking different languages . . . May I suggest that what you SEE is a fraction of a fraction of society . . . perhaps you should move to a better area . . .

The only good thing I can see at the moment is Cameron can't get his own way on every issue, only time will tell of course.

Yes, as long as he's not self-righteous. They might end up being the 'holier than thous' as someone's already put it. The first few weeks might be good indicators, but change needs time.

Self-righteous? In what way? I'm thinking that if anything the stance on immigration will become stronger . . . how did the BNP fare?

Quite a sad post for your standards, anne

Yes, indeed. That's why I can't be a politician. As my Chinese friends used to say about communisn, Nan zuo ren, zuo ren nan - It's difficult to be human, human to be difficult.
I don't know if you were to put the same person in two different domains - one living in an economically successful country and the other in present day Britain with an impressively insurmountable national debt ( 168 billions? ) in its present context, what can come out as solutions.
I live in a not too bad area, but there're lots of immigrants, at the fringe areas like most places in London and the UK as a whole, from what I've heard. I mean, it's great to see you guys speaking up for immigrants - I believe people always migrate myself - since the days Out of Africa. I must be depressed, sometimes on my way to work, driving past a long line of groups of blue collar immigrants waiting on the kerbs for their labouring jobs, having my travel wallet stolen by a couple of gypsy women in a shop, witnessing the daily arrivals of new students with no English in secondary schools etc. It is a strange experience, I suppose.

I'm sorry it sounds so depressing. To me, London today is very different from that of 20 years ago. You'll have to live here to notice how times have changed.

But you're right. People of all backgrounds have the right to look for ways to make their lives better. But can the social services stretch that far for so much longer? What other ways can you think of to use resources that can create production output and profitable gains, err, instead of draining the national wealth? So are you saying, you oppose the new government's act to stop all non-EU immigrants only?

The BNP did extremely badly - in Barking and Dagenham. It was difficult to gauge how they would fare in the elections. They won the European seat; but beyond extreme racism, they also have very narrow-minded views about global busineses. Anyway, I do feel sorry for them too.
Sad, indeed. I don't really think one can ever speak fairly in politics. It's a relative zone.

[raden888]

I'm not defending the immigrants ,however, its easy to blame them for all of Britain's woe.After all, who are employing these migrants if not Britons. ...in reality its the locals who have to realise that they need to change their mindset.Once they do ,only then can the real issues that have been plaguing British society for the last couple decades can be solved.

[ksl]

David Cameron a virgo same as John Lennon, that's inspiring but as a leader we will have to wait and see, eventually we will get through all the signs one day

Though he does come from the aristocratic breeding ground I'm sure the queen will be delighted, more funds going their way no doubt and what a boost to every noble out there, certainly no complaints. Ancestor was King William the IV.

I don't mind at all as long has they improve the whole state of the Country, immigrants have little say in the matter,,,its to do with sound management policies, hopefully they can work as a team and have their eyes opened by Nath21 And who said the Scottish don't like the British, they love being in charge of the House, I can imagine they are having a big celebration over the border. Can you imagine Singapore allowing that SMS one government suits me fine, no stress, not many lager louts and a developing Country.

Though i would prefer SMS's farm any day of the week, any chance you will have an old age retirement home built for all your expat buddies. Is the beer cheap!

[anneteoh]

Can you imagine Singapore allowing that SMS one government suits me fine, no stress, not many lager louts and a developing Country.

Though i would prefer SMS's farm any day of the week, any chance you will have an old age retirement home built for all your expat buddies. Is the beer cheap!

What's your criteria for a developed country? What's the point of having general elections when there're citizens who can't vote anyway?

When I walk down some pavements in London ( they seem to weather too quickly ) ; most pavements have flagstones not properly laid, they're uneven; some pavements are so full of chewing gum, the yukky odd dog mess and unswept debris that one yearns to be walking in Singapore instead. But this leads to the question posed above.

One thing no one has brought up so far, is the crime rate. There had been about 11 deaths this year among the youths, and quite of number of adults, if one can still keep track, killed; increasingly more each year. It's often remarked upon that Britain's too democratic, too liberal and not strict enough with criminals. There had been a series of 3-4 robberies, with men using short guns and balaclavas, breaking into jewellery shops in Bond street and elsewhere. They were prepared to harm ad even kill the shop assistants. No one's been caught so far and when caught, they get out too quickly as the sentences are lenient. As always, the innocent are the victims. Really, there seems to be an innocent victim murdered almost every other week. This is one area I expect the new govt will act on.

Is leniency and doing away with capital punishment signs of a developed country?

[anneteoh]

I actually read somewhere that legal immigrants to the UK (as in intra-European migration) are apparently the only group who add to "the system" while the rest takes money out.

The real problem is spend, spend and yet more gov't spend. Hang on, isn't that how Greece got into trouble?

Nice thought but I wouldn't envisage the EE'peans coming here to work hard and fill our treasury pot.
I gather there're many loopholes here - leniency or slackness is the rule of thumb. Most shops don't even bother to give receipts unless you want them. It's green and saves paper; but how can the govt keep track of business gains and taxation if there's nothing in the accounts? Is anyone surprised expenditure and incomes don't balance up?

[Plavt]

What's your criteria for a developed country? What's the point of having general elections when there're citizens who can't vote anyway?

I assume you mean immigrants who are not citizens they are foreign nationals like you have in Singapore. Natives of the EU still need passports to travel between countries but you probably know that already.

One thing no one has brought up so far, is the crime rate. There had been about 11 deaths this year among the youths, and quite of number of adults, if one can still keep track, killed; increasingly more each year. It's often remarked upon that Britain's too democratic, too liberal and not strict enough with criminals. There had been a series of 3-4 robberies, with men using short guns and balaclavas, breaking into jewellery shops in Bond street and elsewhere. They were prepared to harm ad even kill the shop assistants. No one's been caught so far and when caught, they get out too quickly as the sentences are lenient. As always, the innocent are the victims. Really, there seems to be an innocent victim murdered almost every other week. This is one area I expect the new govt will act on.

Under Labour the crime rate was falling, serious crime in this country is not a common problem unless you believe the hype by the media. Although there have been some horrific deaths amongst today's youth and even one is too many, they are not so numerous that anybody has lost count as your post appears to imply.

Is leniency and doing away with capital punishment signs of a developed country?

That depends on what you define as leniency, and what has capital punishment got to with the development of a country? There are plenty of developed countries that do not have the death sentence. However, capital punishment does not stop serious crime, you need look no further than your own country for confirmation.

[Plavt]

Nice thought but I wouldn't envisage the EE'peans coming here to work hard and fill our treasury pot.
I gather there're many loopholes here - leniency or slackness is the rule of thumb. Most shops don't even bother to give receipts unless you want them. It's green and saves paper; but how can the govt keep track of business gains and taxation if there's nothing in the accounts? Is anyone surprised expenditure and incomes don't balance up?

Ahem, not giving receipts has nothing to do with being green that has been the way as far back as I can remember. The government appoints auditors and other officials to keep track of what businesses do and any discrepancies are soon investigated. Any legitimate business such as a shop will have a bank account so not having anything in the accounts never happens unless the business is bankrupt maybe. Although there are of course cheats, more than often than not their 'lifetime' is limited.

[sundaymorningstaple]

It's green and saves paper; but how can the govt keep track of business gains and taxation if there's nothing in the accounts? Is anyone surprised expenditure and incomes don't balance up?

I like your subtle usage of it's a shame all are not able to understand nor appreciate that concept.

[aster]

I actually read somewhere that legal immigrants to the UK (as in intra-European migration) are apparently the only group who add to "the system" while the rest takes money out.

The real problem is spend, spend and yet more gov't spend. Hang on, isn't that how Greece got into trouble?

Nice thought but I wouldn't envisage the EE'peans coming here to work hard and fill our treasury pot.
I gather there're many loopholes here - leniency or slackness is the rule of thumb. Most shops don't even bother to give receipts unless you want them. It's green and saves paper; but how can the govt keep track of business gains and taxation if there's nothing in the accounts? Is anyone surprised expenditure and incomes don't balance up?

Of course they are coming to work hard, why else would they sign up for those jobs? Just like people coming to Singapore - they come here for jobs, not to sit around and daydream... I trust the same applies to you and I.

As for filling the treasury pot, that is just a side-effect of what's going on. Numbers don't lie - they are the ones adding to the system while your own abuse it and drain more than they put it...

As for the state of the economy, ask Gordon. He seems to be following Greece's example with all the over-spending...

[ksl]

anneteoh wrote:
What's your criteria for a developed country?

Developed or not developed doesn't really matter.
What matters is a relative safe stress free environment
Equality would be nice

Development would be the destruction of the aristocratic noblemen, that only care about themselves and their wealth..Those days are dying though they still have privileges that others do not have at present.

Evolvement, gradual growth, evolution, maturation; progression with out dated laws and living in the past, is not development at all.

The UK isn't meant to be organised, it is meant to be an obstacle course, with catch 22 for everything. That is not progressive. Things need simplifying to improve.

Though with Cameron and the libs it maybe possible, to improve things though i doubt it, becuase there is no money available.

[anneteoh]

What's your criteria for a developed country? What's the point of having general elections when there're citizens who can't vote anyway?

I assume you mean immigrants who are not citizens they are foreign nationals like you have in Singapore. Natives of the EU still need passports to travel between countries but you probably know that already.

One thing no one has brought up so far, is the crime rate. There had been about 11 deaths this year among the youths, and quite of number of adults, if one can still keep track, killed; increasingly more each year. It's often remarked upon that Britain's too democratic, too liberal and not strict enough with criminals. There had been a series of 3-4 robberies, with men using short guns and balaclavas, breaking into jewellery shops in Bond street and elsewhere. They were prepared to harm ad even kill the shop assistants. No one's been caught so far and when caught, they get out too quickly as the sentences are lenient. As always, the innocent are the victims. Really, there seems to be an innocent victim murdered almost every other week. This is one area I expect the new govt will act on.

Under Labour the crime rate was falling, serious crime in this country is not a common problem unless you believe the hype by the media. Although there have been some horrific deaths amongst today's youth and even one is too many, they are not so numerous that anybody has lost count as your post appears to imply.

Is leniency and doing away with capital punishment signs of a developed country?

That depends on what you define as leniency, and what has capital punishment got to with the development of a country? There are plenty of developed countries that do not have the death sentence. However, capital punishment does not stop serious crime, you need look no further than your own country for confirmation.

I don't make assumptions of others and I hope my tone of voice is Asian and sweet, but not too businesslike. I don't as a rule read the tabloids and not that stupid to media hype, but they can be deviously persuasive.

What country do you assume I'm from? Yes, I'd be interested to know that since I don't really think you know me at all.

I suppose the foreign nationals are professionals working in any other country than theirs of birth; but Singapore has extended foreign nationals PR status , and eventually citizenship as well. I was in such a situation. I suppose PRs can't vote but naturalized citizens can vote.
I hope I wasn't exaggerating the crime rate here. Just today , the BBC announces 400,000 million pounds being spent on the police and that it's the higest increase in any public service. There're debates about stop and check - what's the point of recruiting more police if they are simply walking the beat? At one time in London, most people feel that the crime rate in Britain's worse than NY.

The crimes I read about from China - usually involving men over the age range of 20s-40s who'd lost their jobs running amok and victimisng children, are slightly different from murdering and youth crime, though they have a similar vein in becoming a sort of subculture.
There are serious psychologicalissues among those Chinese men and the communities should take on some other revolutionary reforms or rehabs.

There is a correspondence between levels of crime rates and types of punishments for aggressors. Children who commit crimes often return to crimes (unless..), murderers are serially committed - might be in the DNA or psychological make up. In the UK, investigations made found that many murderers had had previous commitments in a range of crimes but they had not been incriminated due to shortages of places in prisons, rehabs etc. I would say the correlations between capital punishment and crime has some impact on prevention.

[anneteoh]

Nice thought but I wouldn't envisage the EE'peans coming here to work hard and fill our treasury pot.
I gather there're many loopholes here - leniency or slackness is the rule of thumb. Most shops don't even bother to give receipts unless you want them. It's green and saves paper; but how can the govt keep track of business gains and taxation if there's nothing in the accounts? Is anyone surprised expenditure and incomes don't balance up?

Ahem, not giving receipts has nothing to do with being green that has been the way as far back as I can remember. The government appoints auditors and other officials to keep track of what businesses do and any discrepancies are soon investigated. Any legitimate business such as a shop will have a bank account so not having anything in the accounts never happens unless the business is bankrupt maybe. Although there are of course cheats, more than often than not their 'lifetime' is limited.

That's sounds more like it, except the case of the shopkeepers who keep their income in cash. As far as I know, no one ever gets caught. There's a serious amount of money laundering just reported today. My, sounds like we're trying to help run Britian. Plavt, the Queen should have you knighted.