Gordon Brown UK puts his foot in it!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Somebody on the plonk again?

[Plavt]

Somebody on the plonk again?

[Mad Scientist]

I think the idea that there is no waste in UK Public service provision is wrong - and I think there are probably hundreds more examples that could prove the point and that could be cut without costing a single job for teachers, nurses or police officers.

Then maybe you should take a course in basic economics; the single most costly factor to all but a handful of employers is the wages bill and that is a fact. Look at just about any company merger or takeover and the first thing that happens is they reduce their cost by transferring work to over countries where workers may be little more than slaves while cosily claiming they cannot survive in Europe without so doing.

Thats not my experience of mergers and takeovers.

They usually do involve redundancies - particularly among back office staff.

However outsourcing to other parts of the world (such as India and China - or in one company I worked in, the Czech Republic) has nothing to do with mergers and takeovers.

As for the six billion - that's supposed to be the cost of the Conservatives reversing Labour's NI increase. NI shouldn't be used to pay for teachers and police - and only indirectly for doctors and nurses - it's a handy way for Labour governments to put up taxes on the lower income groups while claiming they aren't increasing taxes. But then I don't expect much from a party who increased taxes on the lowest earners in society to give a tax cut for the low to middle income groups.

Further, much of the increase was on employer's NI - meaning they slapped a billion of hundreds of millions of pounds on organisations like the NHS.

None the less - tax cuts are not taking money out of the economy - they are leaving the money in the hands of people who earned the money in the first place who will often choose to spend it - there by stimulating growth.

Sorry, I read and read and read your post through(10x), though I am not English, I really cannot make up what is that you want to convey

Is this real or not

[Plavt]

Sorry, I read and read and read your post through(10x), though I am not English, I really cannot make up what is that you want to convey

Is this real or not

Don't worry about it: couple of Brits having a political dig at each other, maybe not the right place for it.

[raden888]

Anyway, I see nothing wrong in regulating immigration . . . and keeping a certain ethnic balance through immigration . . . we can all see what the seeming free-for-all has brought us in Oz . . . ghettos.

I'm in total agreement here..... Drinks on me..What's your poison?


Yeah, I reckon Nath 21 and Plavt for PM/DPM

The UK is too dependent on this bullcrap 3rd economy .i.e service economy. The UK does not manufacture much these days and blaming the loss of jobs due to outsourcing is just a cop out. Go back to the basics and start spending heavily on R&D.

There is a lot wastage in Government..Recently, I came into contact with someone had a trip to Oz courtesy of the British Taxpayers Club. I really do not see the benefit these two nations received by this person's visit.Despite, the financial crisis and all, they are still spending recklessly.I'm sure this is not an isolated case!

NI is heavily dependent on public jobs and public funding.

Hey Plavt ..Love your Avatar. Pity England do not make men like these anymore. They could use them now! Be Easy on ManUtdFan after all he is a Man Utd Fan

[Plavt]

Be Easy on ManUtdFan after all he is a Man Utd Fan

Ah well you see I live in near Tottenham.

[manutdfan]

Sorry, I read and read and read your post through(10x), though I am not English, I really cannot make up what is that you want to convey

Is this real or not

The current UK Prime Minister and Chancellor are justifying the huge Greek style deficit the UK is running on the grounds that they need to stimulate the economy - this is based on the Keynesian idea that this is what you do in a recession. The Bank of England is also trying to increase the money supply by means of a technique they call "quantitive easing".

They then attack suggestions that a NI/tax increase be reversed as "taking money out of the economy". This seems to me to be confusing public sector spending with the economy - the 6 billion is still there - it's just not being spent by the government but by the private individuals and businesses who no longer have to pay the increase.

Does that help clear it up?

[manutdfan]

Thats not my experience of mergers and takeovers.

They usually do involve redundancies - particularly among back office staff.

That's what some like to claim but the evidence suggests otherwise - get a real sloppy service from a good number of companies these days.

However outsourcing to other parts of the world (such as India and China - or in one company I worked in, the Czech Republic) has nothing to do with mergers and takeovers.

Maybe but in every merger or takeover I have heard there have been job losses and no end of companies have moved operations abroad to acquire cheap labour. Here's and example an American owned company produce caterpillar tracts at Birtley near Newcastle-upon-Tyne; the company was profitable but the American ownership still moved production to South Korea for cheaper labour (some years ago now).

So you're agreeing with me that mergers / takeovers do lead to job losses? Because you started off by saying "what some like to claim but the evidence suggests otherwise "

However, the decision to offshore work is seperate from the process of merging and taking over two companies. In the case you cite, it was an American company who having outsourced manufacturing to Newcastle decided it was cheaper to do it in South Korea.

As for the six billion - that's supposed to be the cost of the Conservatives reversing Labour's NI increase. NI shouldn't be used to pay for teachers and police - and only indirectly for doctors and nurses - it's a handy way for Labour governments to put up taxes on the lower income groups while claiming they aren't increasing taxes. But then I don't expect much from a party who increased taxes on the lowest earners in society to give a tax cut for the low to middle income groups.

Bullshit! You clearly do not know what you are talking about since every government has increased NI contributions. As for it being a 'handy way to put up taxes for the lower income groups', again you are talking nonsense since it only applies to those earning 20K or more. An increase of income tax to 50p for those earning a 150K of more is hardly a tax cut for middle income groups is it?

The 50% tax rate has nothing to do with the 6 billion (though even the Chancellor admits it will only raise less than they originally claimed).

20k however, which is the group affected by the NI raise is very definitely middle income. And the fact the Tories did it is hardly an excuse for Labour - who according to myth are supposed to protect from the poor and middle incomes from the big bad Tories grinding their faces into the dirt - from doing the same.

The reference to "on the lowest earners in society to give a tax cut for the low to middle income groups" was a reference to the farce that was the abolition of the 10% tax rate by the way.

Further, much of the increase was on employer's NI - meaning they slapped a billion of hundreds of millions of pounds on organisations like the NHS.

Get your facts right will you? None of the increases have been applied yet. The more likely reason is there are more people not working than are working throughout Europe for various reasons but then maybe you have been away too long?

You're making no sense here - the increases shouldn't be reversed but they haven't have been applied yet. And the Tories are big and bad for suggesting it should be reversed?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say with the last sentence - but I've been "away" all of about two months.

None the less - tax cuts are not taking money out of the economy - they are leaving the money in the hands of people who earned the money in the first place who will often choose to spend it - there by stimulating growth.

Now you really are sinking into the gutter with your own argument! Bankers award themselves obscene bonuses, the conservatives want to give money to a minority of people who have more than they need to survive comfortably. That does not simulate growth since the money will end up in tax havens such as Litchenstien or in Swiss bank accounts where it earns no interest and benefits nobody other than the few individuals who put it there to start with.

When we're talking about the NI increases - the bankers are practically irrelevant.

Firstly, because they stand to benefit the least from the increases.

Secondly - the real issue is that a time of rising unemployment increasing employer NI contributions has the affect of making hiring people more expensive. This doesn't strike me as a formula for job creation.

[Plavt]

Since you obviously want to believe the garbage the conservatives are spewing out get on with it! Who was it who put VAT on domestic fuel? Who created the poll tax? Who's policies more than trebled unemployment after they cosily lambasted the labour party for a figure a good deal less? Who was de-regulated the transport industry that we now have the shambles of a transport system that we do have? Who is who are for every cutting benefits so much so the needy get penalized and the fiddlers still continue their thieving?

That's a just a few issues but then I expect you either too young to remember or just one of those privileged individuals whose only interest is himself. As I said earlier increasing NI contributions has been done by every government. The furore that it will somehow hurt jobs is a myth created by the media and greedy business persons.

By the way the company I mentioned near Newcastle was making a profit the move was shear greed. While were on the subject of greed, I am in no doubt that is the very reason a good number of expats are living in Singapore and probably includes yourself for all I know. Makes a mockery of some who preach loyalty to their own country doesn't it?

[manutdfan]

Since you obviously want to believe the garbage the conservatives are spewing out get on with it! Who was it who put VAT on domestic fuel? Who created the poll tax? Who's policies more than trebled unemployment after they cosily lambasted the labour party for a figure a good deal less? Who was de-regulated the transport industry that we now have the shambles of a transport system that we do have? Who is who are for every cutting benefits so much so the needy get penalized and the fiddlers still continue their thieving?

That's a just a few issues but then I expect you either too young to remember or just one of those privileged individuals whose only interest is himself. As I said earlier increasing NI contributions has been done by every government. The furore that it will somehow hurt jobs is a myth created by the media and greedy business persons.

By the way the company I mentioned near Newcastle was making a profit the move was shear greed. While were on the subject of greed, I am in no doubt that is the very reason a good number of expats are living in Singapore and probably includes yourself for all I know. Makes a mockery of some who preach loyalty to their own country doesn't it?

You're quite clearly of the school of thought that says public spending is a good thing and should be done as much as possible. Having said that - I'll respond to some of your points.

My wife is Singaporean - as I've noted elsewhere on these forums. I met her in the UK, and just moved out here because I felt it was time for us to try living in her country for a change.

I don't particularly remember the Thatcher years - I was four and my parents moved to Ireland about four months after Thatcher was elected. I was 15 when she was forced out - a scene greeted with joy in my part of Ireland as she was seen as the devil incarnate over the Hunger Strikes. What I do remember is wandering around Cambridge as a small child watching the rubbish pile up. What I also remember was the huge shambles that was the rail service in the UK as I travelled back to England to visit family long before privitisation. Labour simply wasn't working.

What I do remember more recently is the longest period of growth the UK has ever had (which had been growing for four years before Brown was ever made Chancellor) and yet the Labour government pissed the money away. Unemployment is rising fast - especially among the 16 to 24s, and the current government's solution is to make it even more expensive to hire them.

I'm not overly keen on some of the economic policies being announced by the Conservatives if the truth be told. I can see that there is a massive, massive hole in the public finances and if we don't start some strong, nasty medicine now, then my kids and grandkids will have to take something even nastier in the future.

It was good to see Blair back on the campaign trail - if Labour win, he'll be one of the few that can afford it.

One final point - during the runup 1997 election campaign I remember John Major complaining about how bad things were in 1979 - it made me cringe everytime I heard it. But at least he had four years of growth behind him - Brown's running pretty much the same tack but is doing it in a recession.

[ScoobyDoes]

Since you obviously want to believe the garbage the conservatives are spewing out get on with it! Who was it who put VAT on domestic fuel? Who created the poll tax? Who's policies more than trebled unemployment after they cosily lambasted the labour party for a figure a good deal less? Who was de-regulated the transport industry that we now have the shambles of a transport system that we do have? Who is who are for every cutting benefits so much so the needy get penalized and the fiddlers still continue their thieving?

That's a just a few issues but then I expect you either too young to remember or just one of those privileged individuals whose only interest is himself. As I said earlier increasing NI contributions has been done by every government. The furore that it will somehow hurt jobs is a myth created by the media and greedy business persons.

By the way the company I mentioned near Newcastle was making a profit the move was shear greed. While were on the subject of greed, I am in no doubt that is the very reason a good number of expats are living in Singapore and probably includes yourself for all I know. Makes a mockery of some who preach loyalty to their own country doesn't it?

There is good and bad about all governments.

Whilst I am with you on Thatch in the most part I have to say that after Labour governments of the 70's and the various mining, train, fire, nurses, teacher, garbage and Leyland type strikes the ONE thing Thatch did do well enough was privatise business in such a way to destroy the union influence.

We only have to look at BA, LH and the whole of France now to see how unions have the greater potential to hurt the people they are supposed to protect...... because like a polititian the shop steward negotiates to keep his own job at the expense of his "brothers" on the floor.

The poll tax was a travisty, and as a Scot we felt that harder than anybody. Putting VAT on essentials was never supposed to be the deal but at least now some goes back into the pockets of those that need them, in the way of cold weather payments but it took many years to refine the system.

Labour started off well but lost track through the years. There was a quite good article in TODAY a few days ago about Brown, a man who has spent most of his life actually trying to put in policy to help others than power up for himself. Unfortuntely he's also a bit of a dope.

I think it's finally time to give the LibDems a go........ otherwise I might be tempted to ship over the "Party" from Beijing

[24601]

So the votes are in....

Well all I can say is that id Gordon-Brown gets his way (a hung parliament with Labour + Lib dems) then I'm not returning to the UK until the next election!

Hopefully he can be stopped at least a Consertative/Lib dem hung parliament wouldn't be too bad.

But as my wise boyfriend says (though he is from the Nordics and not the UK) get out quick because that ship is going down!

[ScoobyDoes]

Honestly, either combination of Lib-Lab or Lib-Con will be better than a single party of Torry or Labour.

As can be seen in a Proportianal Representative allocation of seats, more and better decisions are made for the good of people rather than the good of politians.

Of course there are a lot of "good" ideas that also get watered down in debate but overall i think, at the end of the day, it is more representative of what people need.

[anneteoh]

There is good and bad about all governments.

Whilst I am with you on Thatch in the most part I have to say that after Labour governments of the 70's and the various mining, train, fire, nurses, teacher, garbage and Leyland type strikes the ONE thing Thatch did do well enough was privatise business in such a way to destroy the union influence.

We only have to look at BA, LH and the whole of France now to see how unions have the greater potential to hurt the people they are supposed to protect...... because like a polititian the shop steward negotiates to keep his own job at the expense of his "brothers" on the floor.

The poll tax was a travisty, and as a Scot we felt that harder than anybody. Putting VAT on essentials was never supposed to be the deal but at least now some goes back into the pockets of those that need them, in the way of cold weather payments but it took many years to refine the system.

Labour started off well but lost track through the years. There was a quite good article in TODAY a few days ago about Brown, a man who has spent most of his life actually trying to put in policy to help others than power up for himself. Unfortuntely he's also a bit of a dope.

I think it's finally time to give the LibDems a go........ otherwise I might be tempted to ship over the "Party" from Beijing

Great to read the discussions. Britain need to be saved! My idea of God or the great intelligence, lie in collective consciousness and relativity. which is similar to the Daoists' concept of duality. Most of the world we know, from Semitic to Western thinking, was based on an absolutist version of monotheism and good and evil. For long, humans had tried to prove that in our literature, grey is the colour. It seems few can accept that the truth is that plain.

When I first ventured into this dynamic forum, patrician was the word in my subconscious. It's not really about the town and gown or nobs and yobs; in fact, I'm very much on the side of the proletariats. The point I wish to make is that the expats in this thread have wider framed glasses that enable them to have clearer visons; you have more to compare and therefore, things on the peripheral do not stay out of your sight. So, what I've read from your discussions sound more complex and intelligent than the power crazed, ego-centric politicians here in the backwater of Britain. who are like the frogs living in a small well so they can't see the sky. However, I'm able to make this verdict for you're free to talk, banter, argue or dribble. And this is what Britain is about. It's about the tradition of liberal democaracy, perhaps the best in the world; though it's not untainted or perfect.

I agree with the points made here. But a democratic world is more complex than we want it to be. This is due to the fact that human rights are not only recognised, but are legally bound into the constitution; though, of course, that doesn't guarantee that everyone treats it with respect and will not abuse or take advantage ot it. So, look at it this way, democarcy is full of loopholes for those who are seeking to abuse the law and promote themselves, their greed, ideology or whatever. That is ignoble. That is why many condemn the liberal left wingers for allowing such lack things to go on in Britain - e.g. uncontrolled immigration, spending, PM's corruptive spendings... the list is long.

Whatever the state of its economy and politics, the British government , at its core, is intrinsically noble. That is what I can say of dopey old Gordon Brown in the light of the latest British struggles. I had wanted to vote Lib Dem; change was what most of us wanted to see. Nath21, I agree with some of you, does not waste time with words - Britain has to get her act together; now or never. So , when , as many of you pointed out too, that Brown was deliberately bugged, I agree with that. Just so strange that NONE of the BRITISH newspapres or media, so highly rated as most democratic amongst the gobstoppers, admitted anything of that sort!

For me, it turned out to be ironic. I admired Brown's champion for universal fraternity. In his darkest hour ( he knew how unpopular he was ) he was prepared to stand up for his old Labour beliefs. That to me was integrity. He could be genuine or he might be thinking about getting the votes of ethnic minorities. But I think he sincerely cares for the underdog.
The upshot of the hung parliament is that one begins to read, from the faces of the 3 main contestants, what they were really hoping for.Clegg definitely looked disappointed; contrary to Clegg, Cameron look ed elated. They were both aiming for the corridors of power. Why should they appear thus, when None of the leaders really spelt it out transparently and honestly what measures they had to resort to, to propel the country forward. China used to have the Five Year Plan, The gReat Leap Forward, etc - similar in vein to the Buddhists' Fivefold Truths and Eightfold Path. There's no point simply warning the public about austerity measures, job cuts, higher taxation, reining in on public spending etc because employment and public spending are expected of the government by people who pay taxes. What's necessary is for the leaders to spell it out in a plan with some dates and lots of sums how they're going to pay the debts as well as how they can create or find the resources for things we can innovate or produce.
In truth, apart from Nath 21, it makes us wonder what the Privy Council, the Treasury and the political parties are doing - mainly slanging matches or fighting for their own corners! Instead of for the country and the people and the great tradition of liberal democracy.
Post elections, Brown looked solidly experienced as he talked about ' national stability' and working to clear that millstone of a debt, rising unemployment etc. But , as Brown had repeatedly reminded us, this is a world, or rather, a European problem. I see more clearly now that the coalition should be a Labout-Liberal one rather than a Tory led or Tory - Liberal government. Clegg will be over powered by ambitious Cameron who, I suspect will stick up for bankers, investors and the elites.
OTOH, I can't see why the 3 parties cannot form a centralised government seeing that the ratio of the public's votes was :-
Tory - 306
Labout - 295
Lim Dem - 58 near enough figures.
Finally, Nath's list of corrections for the Uk should be presented to the new government, (let's hope there's one soon , or the stock market's going to shiver more so) but one acutely important issue was that the election system is grotesquely outdated ( from the Victorian times) and none of the politicians had ever even given that bizarre shortfall their consideration. For instance, a councillor at one borough complained about a massive increase of voters with ballot papers. When about 4000 were expected, 14,000 turned up! Quite a number of polling stations turned away pople who waited to vote at ten o' clock when the election ended. Consequently, hundreds of voters were denied their rights to vote. Who can say that foreigners can't photocopy ballot papers - like fake passports, otherwise, what can explain the increase in the numbers of voters in some communities?
Was it a coincidence that there was a dumbing down on this councillor's complaint as it was that Brown's been framed? Is there a conspiracy somewhere? What British government Monday tomorrow?

[ksl]

Nice post!

Nath21 appears to have given some deep thought to the issues at hand.

Politicians or the nobles are living outside their time, the aristocrats are a dyeing breed, industry is dead, assets are dumped and the Eastern block Countries are moving in. So blatantly that east Europeans where actually holding live auctions of trafficked women at heathrow airport. Mass crime and abuse of welfare system is fully in operation, swindling every day of the week.

Every other person appears to be a con artist, while the NOBLEMeN live in their own tiny little doss house, abusing the system too and quoting Victorian laws. The place is a bloody shambles and has been since the war time and the introduction of the term welfare state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paramahansa_Yogananda

Gordon Brown cocked up big time in public, but for me, I can genuinely feel that he was, speaking truthful about how he felt about the woman. Old women and men always tend to be outspoken, when they feel they have worked all their lives for peanuts, and are still treated like monkeys.

And many of these monkeys have never ever had a holiday other than Butlins Holiday Camps http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butlins

Now what happens when you attempt to lead your own life, you get stamped has a raving lunatic and can be sectioned for not cooperating, with the bureaucratic system which is run by monkeys too, while the educated civil servants hide out of the way behind closed doors, and take the telephone, did you know that welfare workers have false names, when they answer the telephone, and just slam the phone down, if you raise your voice, they also tear up your applications if, you fall out of line!

My sisters daughter actually works has a telephone operator for welfare enquiries, and she explained to me that the system is so tough, all the genuine cases don't get through, she said she actually had to fill in the forms, because you can only tell lies to get your money, becuase the application forms have been set up by academic experts with all questions being catch 22. Someone is getting the money though thats for sure!