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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 30 Apr 2010 5:05 pm

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Postby Tau Beta » Fri, 30 Apr 2010 11:27 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:Honestly SMS

I am prepared to do battle with him . I do not see what he has said that was deleted, honestly I do not care but you and I , we are old soldiers, we know what's coming. We have trotted where no one goes
From the very onset he knew that there was no way out to this unless I am wrong but I'd be damn if he has no feelings by saying he is a "Chinese" not Indonesian hence not understanding B.I.What kind of crap is that ?
Where does one put its loyalty then ? Scoot when trouble comes like in 1997-98.Most of them did.
Will he run when trouble comes to SG if he is a Sger. Probably or should I say most definitely

MS :x



Hi SMS, MS,

I saw the writing of this kid just before I call it quit last night. Nasty little arrogant punk kid! I hate stereotyping them too but man….

He thinks he had it and his sense of loyalty to anything is smaller than a grain of sand. My wife and I talked a lot about Chinese from M’sia and Indo. She had experienced some really nasty attitude from Indo & M’sia Chinese while she was still in Taiwan in college. They wanted everything of Taiwan but not willing to pay full price for it constantly bragging of their S.E. Asian passport and yet, not willing to return to their native country but also NOT wanting to make full commitment to Taiwan while receiving privileges in education and work. They took everything they could from motherland (which is why they went calling themselves Chinese) and yet not recognizing motherland.

Here in the U.S., we see them doing the same crap constantly claiming themselves as “Chinese”

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Postby Splatted » Sat, 01 May 2010 12:01 am

cavalier wrote:What is so wrong with avoiding NS if possible? Very few of you if any would have taken up PR if it meant doing NS...


Actually, initially, before I applied for my PR, I was praying hard that I wouldn't have to serve.

However, after I applied, . I thought to myself, maybe it's not such a bad thing... it'll certainly whip a person into shape... and to think how billions of dollars is being spent annually by people trying to lose body flab.. is NS it really such a bad thing?

Anyway,.. turned out I was exempt as first generation PR, so I didn't get to find out.

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Postby Tau Beta » Sat, 01 May 2010 12:11 am

Splatted wrote:
cavalier wrote:What is so wrong with avoiding NS if possible? Very few of you if any would have taken up PR if it meant doing NS...


Actually, initially, before I applied for my PR, I was praying hard that I wouldn't have to serve.

However, after I applied, . I thought to myself, maybe it's not such a bad thing... it'll certainly whip a person into shape... and to think how billions of dollars is being spent annually by people trying to lose body flab.. is NS it really such a bad thing?

Anyway,.. turned out I was exempt as first generation PR, so I didn't get to find out.


At least you try with a positive mindset and attitude. It's not your fault that you're not serving now. This mindset will go a long way helping you stand up for your new country and home in times of need. You never know what will happen in the next 20 years.

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Postby raikoken » Sat, 01 May 2010 12:28 am

sigh... that outburst wasn't unprovoked, you know that. I was trying to keep things civil and not offend anyone, but you people were openly attacking me. You got on my nerves and I ended up saying things I dont mean. I take the things I said in the post back and apologise. Many of my guy friends have told me good things about ns, and I know that it teaches you very good things.

I think you people are misunderstanding something. I think you assume that I do not want to do ns because I dont care about singapore and I only want to spend my time for myself. I never said that (except in the last post, which as I said I dont mean). I admit that is most people's reason for not taking ns and such assumption is reasonable. However, I dont want to go ns because I cant. Living here in singapore is darn expensive, especially when you earn your income in rupiah. Unlike most indonesian chinese, I'm not rich at all. Which is really why I'm looking for temporary work in the vacation; to support my family. My father just cannot pay for another two extra years. I was considering going for double degree, but that would extend my uni education to five years, and my father cannot afford that. He can barely pay for four years as it is now. The recession hits everyone, not just here in SG. I need to graduate ASAP and start earning my own keep. Many people have recommended me to go ns and I know it would be good for me. I didnt mind to go ns actually. But it's just financially impossible for me.

I love singapore and want to continue staying here. Which is really why I never went back for the last seven years. I consider singapore my home. But you brought out an important point. My feelings now are not so strong that I'll die for SG when SG is invaded. That may change as I continue staying here, but currently if SG is invaded I'll be a war refugee. I'm still young and have many things to do in my life. Maybe when I'm older and settled in, I'd change my mind. Whether I can consider singapore my home when I'm not prepared to die defending it, that is certainly controversial. I wont even get to that surely long and heated discussion.

Again, I'm sorry for the outburst. I didnt mean that. If you dont believe what I said above, so be it. Keep flaming. Just know that I dont enjoy flame wars and wont participate in any "battle", especially when they wont change anyting.

peace

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Postby Tau Beta » Sat, 01 May 2010 4:04 am

raikoken wrote:sigh... that outburst wasn't unprovoked, you know that. I was trying to keep things civil and not offend anyone, but you people were openly attacking me. You got on my nerves and I ended up saying things I dont mean. I take the things I said in the post back and apologise. Many of my guy friends have told me good things about ns, and I know that it teaches you very good things.

I think you people are misunderstanding something. I think you assume that I do not want to do ns because I dont care about singapore and I only want to spend my time for myself. I never said that (except in the last post, which as I said I dont mean). I admit that is most people's reason for not taking ns and such assumption is reasonable. However, I dont want to go ns because I cant. Living here in singapore is darn expensive, especially when you earn your income in rupiah. Unlike most indonesian chinese, I'm not rich at all. Which is really why I'm looking for temporary work in the vacation; to support my family. My father just cannot pay for another two extra years. I was considering going for double degree, but that would extend my uni education to five years, and my father cannot afford that. He can barely pay for four years as it is now. The recession hits everyone, not just here in SG. I need to graduate ASAP and start earning my own keep. Many people have recommended me to go ns and I know it would be good for me. I didnt mind to go ns actually. But it's just financially impossible for me.

I love singapore and want to continue staying here. Which is really why I never went back for the last seven years. I consider singapore my home. But you brought out an important point. My feelings now are not so strong that I'll die for SG when SG is invaded. That may change as I continue staying here, but currently if SG is invaded I'll be a war refugee. I'm still young and have many things to do in my life. Maybe when I'm older and settled in, I'd change my mind. Whether I can consider singapore my home when I'm not prepared to die defending it, that is certainly controversial. I wont even get to that surely long and heated discussion.

Again, I'm sorry for the outburst. I didnt mean that. If you dont believe what I said above, so be it. Keep flaming. Just know that I dont enjoy flame wars and wont participate in any "battle", especially when they wont change anyting.

peace




Hey kid…

I apologized if I rubbed you the wrong way. You have your priority about family, finances, and school. I can dig that. I don’t think the good folks here are warmongers either. They’re here to help with questions and they’re very good at that. You’ll learn to appreciate their knowledge and talent over times. It is good that these posters brought out a critical question and a sense of belonging in you. Where you want to make landfall is your choice. There is no right or wrong decision. How we make them shows our integrity toward our country, work, and family. Maybe I’m very old school but when I recruit college kids from campus which I still like to do my run at this age and time, I always look for integrity first above everything else.

There’s a common train of thought coming from ethnic Chinese from your region – mind you it’s NOT everyone; and that’s a lack of loyalty to the land you live on. Perhaps it’s generated through political reasons that drive such mentality. Nanyang has always been a complex melting pot in its own. There’re 600 hundred years of immigration history and ethnic Chinese are still struggling with their place. That’s the reason why military obligation is always a touchy conversation.

You have the fortune to receive your higher education in SG and experience a different world in your time. Very soon, you’ll earn your wing and you may possibly be confronted with the same question again – who you are and where your heart/loyalty lies as a Citizen. It may not be your birth place but be prepare defend it when duty calls. That is what been a citizen is all about.

I often say this to my son…. we may not have all the privileges like others here, we have our share of crappy treatments, and this may not be the best place for us BUT we are Americans and this is our home. We feel proud as citizens and we will defend our fatherland no matter what. I don’t know if your dad ever shares these thoughts with you. You do well for the country; the country will do well to you. I’m pretty confident you’ll sort out your need if your heart is in the right place when you finally decide where to call home.

Peace!

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Postby raikoken » Sat, 01 May 2010 5:15 am

Tau Beta wrote:Hey kid…

I apologized if I rubbed you the wrong way. You have your priority about family, finances, and school. I can dig that. I don’t think the good folks here are warmongers either. They’re here to help with questions and they’re very good at that. You’ll learn to appreciate their knowledge and talent over times. It is good that these posters brought out a critical question and a sense of belonging in you. Where you want to make landfall is your choice. There is no right or wrong decision. How we make them shows our integrity toward our country, work, and family. Maybe I’m very old school but when I recruit college kids from campus which I still like to do my run at this age and time, I always look for integrity first above everything else.

There’s a common train of thought coming from ethnic Chinese from your region – mind you it’s NOT everyone; and that’s a lack of loyalty to the land you live on. Perhaps it’s generated through political reasons that drive such mentality. Nanyang has always been a complex melting pot in its own. There’re 600 hundred years of immigration history and ethnic Chinese are still struggling with their place. That’s the reason why military obligation is always a touchy conversation.

You have the fortune to receive your higher education in SG and experience a different world in your time. Very soon, you’ll earn your wing and you may possibly be confronted with the same question again – who you are and where your heart/loyalty lies as a Citizen. It may not be your birth place but be prepare defend it when duty calls. That is what been a citizen is all about.

I often say this to my son…. we may not have all the privileges like others here, we have our share of crappy treatments, and this may not be the best place for us BUT we are Americans and this is our home. We feel proud as citizens and we will defend our fatherland no matter what. I don’t know if your dad ever shares these thoughts with you. You do well for the country; the country will do well to you. I’m pretty confident you’ll sort out your need if your heart is in the right place when you finally decide where to call home.

Peace!


well it's good that the animosity's out of the way. I was really shocked when people start putting words in my mouth.

Anyway, yes, the chinese in SEA are very disloyal to their countries, especially in indonesia. We are a very small minority, and the native locals discriminate badly against us. They treat us second class citizens, call us 'cheena', always threat us to give them money. I never took public transport in indo even once, because I'd surely get mugged. There have been too many cases of that. In the riots, only my uncle's house was burnt down. All his malay neighbours' houses in his complex never even got a scratch. Imagine being despised, hated and rejected since you are born because of your skin color. I have never had any sense of belonging to any place before I came to SG.

In SG, the chinese form the majority, so there's naturally no discrimination against the chinese. Better, there's almost no discrimination at all to anyone, regardless of race and nationality. People accept me here. I can relax about my safety. I have equal opportunity as my classmates to learn. That was a first for me. I feel home in singapore. As the years went by, my feelings have deepened, though not to the extent of willingness to die for SG. I really admire that loyalty though, and look forward to the day when I'll have that feeling for a place (most likely SG).

As for my father? haha he's a China maniac. His dream is to earn enough money to immigrate back to China one day. My grandfather was born in China, so the loyalty to China is still very strong in my father and uncles, especially with how the indonesians treat us. The loyalty dies with me, I'm afraid. I love the english language, and would like to spend the rest of my life living in a country with english as the primary language. Is there a place like that where the chinese arent discriminated? I'm right there now, and as far as I know only singapore fits the bill. My chinese friend studying in US gets constantly discriminated too.

So yes, I'd very much like to be a citizen here. But as I said earlier it's not financially possible for me to spend two years doing ns. I'll be alright with reservist duties after I work, as long as they dont cause me to lose my monthly pay. Whether it's possible for me to become a citizen without doing ns, well I guess that depends on how hard I work in NUS!

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Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 01 May 2010 9:14 am

SMS, MS and Tua Beta, you guys jump the gun on this kid. Three grown wise men. I thought it is usually the women who let their emotions get ahead of themselves. I have met several Indonesians, both Malay and Chinese and found them pleasant to get along. Or maybe I don't know them well enough to realize how scummy and leeching they really are. LOL.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 01 May 2010 10:27 am

earthfriendly wrote:SMS, MS and Tua Beta, you guys jump the gun on this kid. Three grown wise men. I thought it is usually the women who let their emotions get ahead of themselves. I have met several Indonesians, both Malay and Chinese and found them pleasant to get along. Or maybe I don't know them well enough to realize how scummy and leeching they really are. LOL.


Actually, we didn't. You did not have the opportunity to read the post he deleted apparently. We did, or at least 2 of us did. We need to ask the questions we do because ultimately, if a kid makes a wrong choice only because of insufficient data at that age about life in general and lack of integrity specifically, then he doesn't belong in Singapore.

While I'm NOT a Singaporean, my son will be doing NS as soon as he finishes at NAFA. I understand the need for NS both here and in any country. He understands why he needs to do so, and he doesn't begrudge the system. In fact, he'd rather get his training here where the chances of having an event free enlistment than in his other homeland, the US, where he could get killed for no other reason than being a American on some country's soil where we don't even belong (like I was - only I survived).

I would hate to think that all those intelligentsia in all the schools here would do a runner here at the first sign of trouble. With that kind of infectious attitude, it would be reminiscent of America in 1966 with thousands of kids running away to Canada. Unfortunately, Singapore does not have the wealth of youth that the US has with their 2.3 fertility rate compared with an only 1.23 rate here so it is imperative that every able-bodied male here be required to carry there part of the load. Especially those that come here and enjoy the fruits that this country has to offer.

Oh, I didn't judge him at all on his ethnicity. Only his attitude. I know literally '000s of Indonesians of all ethnicities. I works in Indonesia for almost 14 years from Aceh to Irian Jaya and from the Maluka's to Timor and most points in between. I do understand being a Chinese in Indonesia is at times difficult or a luxury ride (not much in between) but that has no bearing on his desire as stated originally to take up PR without wanting to pay the price of doing so.

If he doesn't explain himself, as he as now done, we only have the data set given to work with. You should know that yourself.

As far as the "grown men" comment, I'll forgive you for that remark. I was a grown man at 18. I was given bars and aviator wings on my 18th birthday and was shipped to VN shortly thereafter where I flew a chopper for the next 18 months. I daresay this young man is older than that now.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 01 May 2010 12:24 pm

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Postby earthfriendly » Sat, 01 May 2010 12:39 pm

I skimmed thru the thread and did not like the chinese indonesian overt tone. I know all you three wise men are trying to be helpful. Cheers.

My conclusion. It takes a PHD to understand all the NS and immigration policies in SG. And I used to think the US immigration was bad. I was never aware of all these issues when I lived there 20 years ago. I must have led a very sheltered life.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sat, 01 May 2010 12:43 pm

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Postby Tau Beta » Sat, 01 May 2010 1:29 pm

earthfriendly wrote:SMS, MS and Tua Beta, you guys jump the gun on this kid. Three grown wise men. I thought it is usually the women who let their emotions get ahead of themselves. I have met several Indonesians, both Malay and Chinese and found them pleasant to get along. Or maybe I don't know them well enough to realize how scummy and leeching they really are. LOL.


Earthfriendly,

Jumping the gun? Have you not figure out what's his intend? Yes, attitude drives everything. There will always be a reason for not committing to things. I couldn't articulate better than SMS.

Look, going home is not an option for him if you've not understand Indo ethnic Chinese enough. As much as he loves SG, he's not willing to draw the line on the sand. Perhaps MS coaching provides better options for him.

Wise men? I wouldn't go that far but I've seen enough to carry my own.

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Postby raikoken » Sat, 01 May 2010 7:00 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:Yeah , I am Indon Chinese too and I lived and work in many places from Semarang to Irian Jaya. You are looking at one aspect of being second class citizen but what about the local whereby for 80 years from Sukarno till Pak Gus the local was being degraded , humiliated by 'cheena"
There is always two side of the coin. You are young and naive.
90% indigenous Indonesian but the business sector is run by 10% of us"cheena" You and I know and realise this. Can you see the inequalities there.
No matter how poor we are they are poorer and in the worse state. So this anger being kept for so long boiled out an the Tri Sakti Riot began.I was there right in the middle of the action.
You should see when they left all their flash cars at the airport. Selling to anyone for peanuts !!
I am NOT angry at being a Chinese but I do not accept that attitude you show.
Hence SG Gahmen open the immigration for Indon Chinese when that happen.



So be grateful with what you have and being offered.


Well if I did not make it clear in my last post, I am very grateful with this opportunity.

If you are an Indon chinese, you should know that we are hostile to them because they are hostile to us. Whichever comes first is debatable, but we are not hostile to anyone who arent hostile to us. I cant speak for every indon chinese, but at least my family arent. We had a lot of nice malay friends, and we treat them nicely as well. Problem is, only about 10% of the malays dont discriminate against us. The rest of them do. So when a small minority of constantly oppressed people have an opportunity, they strike back. It's an ugly display of human nature, yes, but you just cant expect people to be nice to those who are openly hostile to them.

As for being richer, yes we are richer than them by a wide margin. But inequality doesnt justify their attitude towards us, no? Especially when we earned our wealth through honest, hard work. I remember my father used to eat 3000 rupiah meals (45 cents SGD) daily. So when you have a chinese neighbour who is far richer than you, you naturally get envious, even though you know that his money is clean. But you just dont burn down his house and rape his children (didnt happen to my uncle's daughters, thankfully, but did happen his friends').

anyway, thanks a lot for the tips, mad scientist. I'll bear them in mind. btw I'm not a doctor, but I'll be an engineer. Serving the army after getting my degree is something I never considered before. It's an interesting option :)

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Postby raden888 » Sat, 01 May 2010 8:06 pm

raikoken wrote:
Well if I did not make it clear in my last post, I am very grateful with this opportunity.

If you are an Indon chinese, you should know that we are hostile to them because they are hostile to us. Whichever comes first is debatable, but we are not hostile to anyone who arent hostile to us. I cant speak for every indon chinese, but at least my family arent. We had a lot of nice malay friends, and we treat them nicely as well. Problem is, only about 10% of the malays dont discriminate against us. The rest of them do. So when a small minority of constantly oppressed people have an opportunity, they strike back. It's an ugly display of human nature, yes, but you just cant expect people to be nice to those who are openly hostile to them.

As for being richer, yes we are richer than them by a wide margin. But inequality doesnt justify their attitude towards us, no? Especially when we earned our wealth through honest, hard work. I remember my father used to eat 3000 rupiah meals (45 cents SGD) daily. So when you have a chinese neighbour who is far richer than you, you naturally get envious, even though you know that his money is clean. But you just dont burn down his house and rape his children (didnt happen to my uncle's daughters, thankfully, but did happen his friends').



I think you fail to realise what MS is trying to point out that is probably attributed to your age and upbringing. Sooner or later you must realise that you can't always take what you want .

Let me be clear that I do not condone any form of violence or discrimination based on race, creed or religion but you must understand the common underlying factor illustrated by yourself of the local attitude towards the 'cheena'.

Like Indonesia, Malaysia's ethnic Chinese behaved the same way too then 69' happened and now they play the victim card. They didn't bother much prior to this when they were freely discriminating against non- chinese by having a work with Chinese only mentality. They used to charge higher rates to non-Chinese who used their services etc.They got wealthy, some very wealthy.

This sort of discrimination still occurs in MY and SG...After all, you see a lot of job advertisement which require the candidates to speak Chinese even though most of their business is local and not even dealing with PRC. Go and ask the non- Chinese Singaporeans and they would probably tell you a different story of the discrimination free Singapore that you have painted.

I've traveled to Indonesia far and wide even use their public transport,never have I been robbed or mugged. They can easily tell that I am a foreigner but never had issues with the locals.You treat them with respect and you will get the same of course there are black sheep everywhere.

This is a very typical attitude of SEA Chinese.They consider their host as an all you can eat buffet grab everything while you can.Every action has consequences.

Similar situation exists in other nations too Fiji , Solomon Islands, Rwanda .Western nations would not be what they are today if they had this same mentality.

Hopefully one day you will mature to realise that we have to give back to the community that we live in.That's how we make our own backyard green.The grass is not always green on the other side!


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