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Do I need to pay my maid extra to babysit in the evening?

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Postby road.not.taken » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 6:14 am

Splatted wrote:but even baby sitters back in western countries can get paid $30/hour.


:shock:

Not from the Western country I come from...

I wouldn't pay her extra to babysit in the evening just as I don't charge her for the:

ruined caphalon pots
chipped crystal vases
bleach spotted laundry
interest on loans
extra medical visits
impromptu evenings out


It's all about balance and respect.

Splatted wrote:But again, I'll repeat,.. if the long hours and ridiculously low pay is what they knowingly signed up for before stepping foot in the country, then they got exactly what they wanted.


I find this logic flawed ~ coming from a developing nation, with few options, poor education, bad healthcare, a corrupt government, civil unrest and more than their fair share of natural disasters is not exactly a firm foundation to launch a capable global workforce. Most of these girls have few options at best. Working as a maid is the lesser of the evils. Exactly what they wanted? No, I don't think so.

All we can do is not take advantage ~ pay them well and treat them well and offer them opportunities when the arise.

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Postby cbavasi » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 7:02 am

With a non-taxed salary, rent, board, medical expenses, 2 week paid holiday home, 13th month bonus, birthday bonus, random extra money given here and there... my helper is making more than I made my first job out of college.

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Postby road.not.taken » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 8:11 am

Mine too :)

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Postby Vaucluse » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 10:34 am

Superglide wrote:Not sure how the link given relates to potential bickering or fighting between vaucluse and myself. :-|

No idea either

(Although I do remember, silly Vaucluse adores a classig Tagheuer, whereas myself, I have a far more refined taste and wear a stylish Baume Et Mercier, but that aside). :wink:

I have a Baume et Mercier as well but my effeminate period is over . . . it's all rugged now. Can you smell the Testosterone?!!! Actually, my Tag Heuer has been with me in the Sahara, Caribbean, Samoa diving etc . . .
love it.
And one thing I learned in SEAsia - - - NO LEATHER WRISTBAND


Vaucluse, hard to find a topic to fight about, we agree on almost everything... O:)

So true . . . I think it's just two old warriors getting odl, sitting under a chestnut tree in town square, sipping their coffee and checking out the ladies (like the old guys in Asterix auf Korsika)

But to make you feel homesick, here's a nice one:

Went to Cologne (Koeln) a few weeks back, Eastern weekend holiday break.

Koelle.... Tolles Wochenende, viel Koelsch, viel Theater (Oper, Klassisches Konzert, Museum Ludwig), Fantastisches Essen neben dem Rhein und wirklich ein sehr gutes Hotel, SAS Radisson an der falschen Seite des Rheins.

Waere schoen gewesen, dich dort an zu treffen... :wink:

Ach, das hoert sich toll an. Weisst Du, das ist doech etwas das mir hier fehlt . . . sich in's Auto setzen und ein paar Stunden spaeter in einem anderen Land zu sitzen und die dortige Kultur zu geniessen (mal eine nicht-Asiatische). In diesem Fall die Koelsch-Kultur, sowie die kulturellen Angebote! :)

Vielleicht eines tages wenn wir von dieser Gegend genug haben . . . Eines tages!




I'm glad to hear you're enjoying yourself back in Europe . . . any plans at all in coming back here?


road.not.taken wrote:
I believe the term you're looking for is baby monitor.


Right. Those things . . . high-tech stuff . . . good value!


Splatted wrote:
even baby sitters back in western countries can get paid $30/hour.


:o Not where I come from, nor road.not.taken . . . pray tell, where s this baby-sitter nirvana . . . and don't say Oz because that's not the case


You fail to see the point, Splatted . . . these people are already employed and living in your home. They eat for free, don't pay electricity, water, shampoos etc...
No, they are not family . . . but anyone taking care of my child in our absence better feel like being part of our family . . . and if keeping an ear out while they are awake in case of an emergency is too much to ask . . . then make it a pure employer/employee relationship and have them pay for breakages, food etc . . . oh, and forget about birthday presents and bonuses, presents for their children at Christmas and their birthdays (bought and sent by the employer) etc etc etc . . .

chavasi wrote:
With a non-taxed salary, rent, board, medical expenses, 2 week paid holiday home, 13th month bonus, birthday bonus, random extra money given here and there... my helper is making more than I made my first job out of college.


Ditto . . . and being self-employed, she still does at times.
......................................................

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Postby Splatted » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:49 pm

Vaucluse wrote: :o Not where I come from, nor road.not.taken . . . pray tell, where s this baby-sitter nirvana . . . and don't say Oz because that's not the case



Well, yes OZ..there are people asking and getting these higher rates.

http://www.findababysitter.com.au/babysitting/perth
(first page has one person asking $25, but I have heard of people asking for higher)

You can certainly pay less, though the average high school girl baby sitter may not be trained level 2/3 first aid. Depends on what you expect for your money, really.

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Postby Splatted » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 1:17 pm

road.not.taken wrote:
Splatted wrote:But again, I'll repeat,.. if the long hours and ridiculously low pay is what they knowingly signed up for before stepping foot in the country, then they got exactly what they wanted.


I find this logic flawed ~ coming from a developing nation, with few options, poor education, bad healthcare, a corrupt government, civil unrest and more than their fair share of natural disasters is not exactly a firm foundation to launch a capable global workforce. Most of these girls have few options at best. Working as a maid is the lesser of the evils. Exactly what they wanted? No, I don't think so.


It's not flawed at all.

In the grand scheme of things, of course noone wants to be a maid. I'm sure your maid would have preferred to be a doctor if given the opportunity.

What I meant was everyone can choose to accept a work contract .. or not. If all the terms were clear in advance, and they accepted it, and were happy with the pay before they left their home then they shouldn't be asking for over-time once they arrive.

If, through omission of detail by the recruiter, the to-be-maid was lead to believe they will be doing a standard 38-40 hour week of light house duties for this pay but was then expected to jump at every beck and call upon their arrival 16 hours a day/7 days a week, then I think they got a raw deal.

I am assuming most know what they are in for beforehand, and that they willingly (to borrow your phrase) accepted the lesser of the 'two evils'.. hence they got exactly what they wanted.

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Postby Splatted » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 1:29 pm

Vaucluse wrote:You fail to see the point, Splatted . . . these people are already employed and living in your home. They eat for free, don't pay electricity, water, shampoos etc...
No, they are not family . . . but anyone taking care of my child in our absence better feel like being part of our family . . . and if keeping an ear out while they are awake in case of an emergency is too much to ask . . . then make it a pure employer/employee relationship and have them pay for breakages, food etc . . . oh, and forget about birthday presents and bonuses, presents for their children at Christmas and their birthdays (bought and sent by the employer) etc etc etc . . .


You're making it sound like all these "perks".. accommodation, shampoo, soap, food are something unique.

(you'll forgive me, as I have never hired a maid myself), but isn't this part and parcel of the contract? Does anyone in Singapore hire a maid from philippines/myanmar/wherever and then dock their pay for rent?

If yes, then my apologies. Otherwise, you make it sound like everyone employing a maid has done a charitable service.

Anyway, my apology in advance if indeed this is a perk that isn't expected from an employer. (I think i'll leave this thread alone now)

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Postby road.not.taken » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 3:53 pm

Splatted wrote:(you'll forgive me, as I have never hired a maid myself),


Well, I think until you have you really don't have a broad perspective on this subject. I lose sleep over a lot of things, but our maid being paid extra for babysitting in the evenings is certainly not one of them.

Splatted wrote:What I meant was everyone can choose to accept a work contract .. or not. If all the terms were clear in advance, and they accepted it, and were happy with the pay before they left their home then they shouldn't be asking for over-time once they arrive.


Yes, I guess in a nice, clear black & white world this would be true. But having worked with charities that look after abused migrant workers I can tell you these poor girls lack the education, support and opportunities that would be common to most people entering into a contract. I guess you could argue the parents that sell their daughters into brothels have choices too, just not the same choices we can even conceive.

As far as the website goes, the vast majority are asking for much less and they all seem to have more qualifications.

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Postby Splatted » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 7:16 pm

OK, this is my last reply...


road.not.taken wrote:
Splatted wrote:(you'll forgive me, as I have never hired a maid myself),


Well, I think until you have you really don't have a broad perspective on this subject. I lose sleep over a lot of things, but our maid being paid extra for babysitting in the evenings is certainly not one of them.

Well, that's utter nonsense. Just because I haven't perused the specifics of what the contractual agreement entails for maids doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on fairness and human decency.

And for the record, I am not trying to send anyone here on a guilt-trip. Lets get this clear before you start slammin' by broad perspective.



Splatted wrote:What I meant was everyone can choose to accept a work contract .. or not. If all the terms were clear in advance, and they accepted it, and were happy with the pay before they left their home then they shouldn't be asking for over-time once they arrive.


Yes, I guess in a nice, clear black & white world this would be true. But having worked with charities that look after abused migrant workers I can tell you these poor girls lack the education, support and opportunities that would be common to most people entering into a contract. I guess you could argue the parents that sell their daughters into brothels have choices too, just not the same choices we can even conceive.

As far as the website goes, the vast majority are asking for much less and they all seem to have more qualifications.



Regardless of their education level, people are not mute. They ask direct questions like "how much money can I make?" "Is it hard work?" "what if the boss makes a pass at me, what do I do?" etc etc etc. This is hardly a parallel with people that have been sold into prostitution.

I can guarantee that most maids will have asked the ins and outs of working abroad from others they know or are friends with that know someone working abroad, hence why I keep re-iterating they got what they wanted.

This is the very reason for the opening post. The maid had heard they should have been paid from someone in Singapore getting paid OT for childcare, and thus thought they were being cheated.

Whether it was stipulated before they started their contract (either by recruiter or the employer themselves) they were expected to work 16 hours a day for these employers, you will have to ask her.


Anyway.. that's really my last response...

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Postby Vaucluse » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 7:27 pm

Splatted wrote:(I think i'll leave this thread alone now)


Splatted wrote:OK, this is my last reply...
Anyway.. that's really my last response...


Okie . . .

splatted wrote:
You can certainly pay less, though the average high school girl baby sitter may not be trained level 2/3 first aid. Depends on what you expect for your money, really.
..... baby sitters back in western countries can get paid $30/hour.


I see 13, 18, 22, 18, 25, 20, 18, 18, 14

Now you're moving the goalpost by talking about 2/3 level first aid training etc . . .

It is clear you don't have a live-in domestic helper as you have no idea who these people are, where they come from nor what they expect.
......................................................



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Postby Superglide » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 7:39 pm

Vaucluse wrote:And one thing I learned in SEAsia - - - NO LEATHER WRISTBAND


I know.... I can close my eyes and I can trace my watch, just using my nose. :(

Vaucluse wrote:Ach, das hoert sich toll an. Weisst Du, das ist doech etwas das mir hier fehlt . . . sich in's Auto setzen und ein paar Stunden spaeter in einem anderen Land zu sitzen und die dortige Kultur zu geniessen (mal eine nicht-Asiatische). In diesem Fall die Koelsch-Kultur, sowie die kulturellen Angebote! :)

Vielleicht eines tages wenn wir von dieser Gegend genug haben . . . Eines tages!


It is one of the things I do appreciate, being back in Europe: visitng other countries by car, just a few hours drives. SE Asia not bad at all, but I like it here.

Vaucluse wrote:I'm glad to hear you're enjoying yourself back in Europe . . . any plans at all in coming back here?


Never say never, but not on my shortlist. Within Europe, most likely, Italy as a favorite...
If only we could pull out our brain and use only our eyes.
Pablo Picasso

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Postby Splatted » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 8:41 pm

Well, I wasn't expecting to have to answer at a final swipe at me after my last post... but here goes.

Vaucluse wrote:
splatted wrote:
You can certainly pay less, though the average high school girl baby sitter may not be trained level 2/3 first aid. Depends on what you expect for your money, really.
..... baby sitters back in western countries can get paid $30/hour.


I see 13, 18, 22, 18, 25, 20, 18, 18, 14

Now you're moving the goalpost by talking about 2/3 level first aid training etc . . .

Not at all. I think the difference between can and will is patently obvious. I used the word can when I said what babysitters may get.

And if you get back to the reason why we were on this point, rather than focus on trivialities you would realize that this comment you stated that maids are being treated as family is just nonsense. Pick any figure in that row of numbers you typed above which you would pay a fellow family member to work for you at an hourly rate, and compare. See if your maids income comes even close as the honorary family member.

Better still, ask a real family member to work for you 16 hours a day for a month, for the pay you offer your maid and see if they think you're employer of the year.


It is clear you don't have a live-in domestic helper as you have no idea who these people are, where they come from nor what they expect.

It's only clear, because I stated I don't have one. As for the rest, you're quite wrong. Either way, at least I'm not deluded about what is an expected working condition (food and board), versus what is a genuine 'perk'. But hey, you go on and continue thinking you're the humanitarian that you are.

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Postby cbavasi » Thu, 29 Apr 2010 9:22 pm

I'd like to know who gets paid $30 an hour to babysit... sign me up! It really is a "when in Rome" scenario... Jakarta we'd pay our maid extra to babysit - simply b/c she didn't live in and the salary was much lower than it is here (appallingly)... when we brought our helper here we still paid her to babysit and after a year when she went back and our new helper started we did, in fact, specify babysitting included in the contract. Babysitting is like Vaulcluse said - sticking a baby monitor in your room or sitting in the front room watching TV and just listening for a kid that rarely wakes up for parents that are coming home at a reasonable hour.
As far as treating my helper like "family"... I've learned my lesson. Our helper is fantastic... she loves my children and they love her... she is treated with respect and I would help her in any way... but I've also learned through previous experience that there is a comfortable "distance". This is also a "working contract"... I haven't signed adoption papers.... if she wants to leave, then so be it. So far, 3 years, we have a mutual understanding.

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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 30 Apr 2010 9:27 am

Splatted wrote:(I think i'll leave this thread alone now)


Splatted wrote:OK, this is my last reply...


Splatted wrote:Anyway.. that's really my last response...



Splatted wrote:Well, I wasn't expecting to have to answer at a final swipe at me after my last post... but here goes.


No-one says you have to answer but if you believe that your final statement, one of your many final statements, is a directive to not discuss the topic any further then you have misjudged what fora like this are for

Splatted wrote: at all. I think the difference between can and will is patently obvious. I used the word can when I said what babysitters may get.


Sure . . . I can now categorically state that babysitter in Australia can demand and get $350/hour if they have a postgraduate degree in medicine, astrophysics and molecular biology.

Splatted wrote: if you get back to the reason why we were on this point, rather than focus on trivialities you would realize that this comment you stated that maids are being treated as family is just nonsense. Pick any figure in that row of numbers you typed above which you would pay a fellow family member to work for you at an hourly rate, and compare. See if your maids income comes even close as the honorary family member.


You can't see the forest for the trees, can you . . . But ok . . . would any family member work for 14, 18 or 20 dollars an hour? You bet your life they would . . . perhaps we are not from the same level of society as you and scoff at these ridiculous numbers . . . for a baby-sitting job.

Splatted wrote: still, ask a real family member to work for you 16 hours a day for a month, for the pay you offer your maid and see if they think you're employer of the year.


Who is working 16 hours a day? My family members don't live in Asia and are not from Indonesia or the Philippines . . . can you not see the difference between working and living in Australia and working an living in Asia?


Splatted wrote:..... baby sitters back in western countries can get paid $30/hour.


If you can't even back up your own statement/hyperbole then your argument is lost anyway


Superglide wrote:
Never say never, but not on my shortlist. Within Europe, most likely, Italy as a favorite...


You and I agree on that location . . . Firenze and the surrounding area . . . but you need a lot of money to realise that dream, unfortunately
......................................................



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Postby Splatted » Fri, 30 Apr 2010 12:31 pm

Vaucluse wrote:No-one says you have to answer but if you believe that your final statement, one of your many final statements, is a directive to not discuss the topic any further then you have misjudged what fora like this are for

It's not a directive to cease discussion, but taking a pot-shot at someone and essentially saying they are clueless after they have expressed they are bored with the topic and no longer want to participate is essentially a cheap shot. Well done.

Splatted wrote: at all. I think the difference between can and will is patently obvious. I used the word can when I said what babysitters may get.


Sure . . . I can now categorically state that babysitter in Australia can demand and get $350/hour if they have a postgraduate degree in medicine, astrophysics and molecular biology.

Of course, and now your choosing to be ridiculous. I have quoted what I have known people to pay.


Splatted wrote: if you get back to the reason why we were on this point, rather than focus on trivialities you would realize that this comment you stated that maids are being treated as family is just nonsense. Pick any figure in that row of numbers you typed above which you would pay a fellow family member to work for you at an hourly rate, and compare. See if your maids income comes even close as the honorary family member.


You can't see the forest for the trees, can you . . . But ok . . . would any family member work for 14, 18 or 20 dollars an hour? You bet your life they would . . . perhaps we are not from the same level of society as you and scoff at these ridiculous numbers . . . for a baby-sitting job.

Perhaps re-read what I wrote before putting your foot in your mouth. I never said those rates were bad. The point which is beyond your comprehension is that you will never treat your maid as a true family member. It's just nonsense.

For your benefit only, I'll reiterate, pick any above rate that you consider a fair hourly pay and compare it to what your maid is getting. You will never pay a real family member as poorly as you do your maid, nor expect them to work the same conditions your maid does. Likewise you will never pay your maid the 'fair' pay you would select for a family member.

So to say that you treat your maid like a family member is just nonsense. This is just an excuse people throw out there to say how great they treat their maids and that their maids have the freedom to take a nap during the day, and that there should be "give and take". However from the maid's perspective whether they have a nap or are awake.. they are 'on call' to the employers every whim.

You expect your maid to sit beside a baby monitor until they sleep when they could be going out in evening and socializing. That's work even if you don't think you are working them 16 hours a day.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever tried to bring their maid back with them to USA, UK, Australia and continue paying $400 a month? They can't because you can bet laws exist in most countries to protect against this form of modern-day slavery.


Splatted wrote: still, ask a real family member to work for you 16 hours a day for a month, for the pay you offer your maid and see if they think you're employer of the year.


Who is working 16 hours a day? My family members don't live in Asia and are not from Indonesia or the Philippines . . . can you not see the difference between working and living in Australia and working an living in Asia?

Again, you missed the point or are choosing to ignore the point.


Splatted wrote:..... baby sitters back in western countries can get paid $30/hour.


If you can't even back up your own statement/hyperbole then your argument is lost anyway

Well I can't back up what's essentially an unregulated industry. Just like I can't back up that I know people who get paid $50 an hour for tutoring, or the fact that a group of us as students collectively chipped in to pay a former maths teacher $150/h to help for our CAT project. It doesn't make what I said wrong, just like choosing to repeatedly focus on a triviality rather than the crux of the statement doesn't rebutt what I said.

Last edited by Splatted on Fri, 30 Apr 2010 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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