Clarification on PEP

[softwareengineer]

Hi,
I am in Singapore for the past 1.6 years. I was on Q1 for 10 months and then on a P2 pass till now. I am a Senior software engineer. I am a Bachelors degree holder in Information Technology and have 5 years of experience in IT.

I have certifications in IT and also in my working domain with good scores. I have also performed well before in my past working experiences and do have letter of apprecations for the same.

I understand from the MOM site that

P2 Pass holders who have at least two years' working experience on a P Pass. They should earn a fixed salary of at least $30,000 in the preceding year.
-- I meet the criteria of earning more than 30,000 per annum in the past 1.6 years experience at Singapore

Also read that MOM will be flexible in considering individual cases that do not meet the minimum criteria but merit the issuance of a PEP

So, will i be able to qualify for an PEP? Any friends with similar experience could help and advice me.

Thanks !

[sundaymorningstaple]

Hi,
I am in Singapore for the past 1.6 years. I was on Q1 for 10 months and then on a P2 pass till now. I am a Senior software engineer. I am a Bachelors degree holder in Information Technology and have 5 years of experience in IT.

I have certifications in IT and also in my working domain with good scores. I have also performed well before in my past working experiences and do have letter of apprecations for the same.

I understand from the MOM site that

P2 Pass holders who have at least two years' working experience on a P Pass. They should earn a fixed salary of at least $30,000 in the preceding year.
-- I meet the criteria of earning more than 30,000 per annum in the past 1.6 years experience at Singapore

Also read that MOM will be flexible in considering individual cases that do not meet the minimum criteria but merit the issuance of a PEP

So, will i be able to qualify for an PEP? Any friends with similar experience could help and advice me.

Thanks !

So, let me get this straight. You think, because you have been on a P2 pass for 8 months, (not even half of the time requirements for a P2 to be considered for an PEP), just because you earned more than $30K last year you should be given special consideration? Why? Because you did your job without getting fired? Because you earned over $30K last year? All P2 EP holders if they worked all year earned more than 35K. For that matter all Q pass holders if they worked a full year earned at least 30K so nothing special there. If you were within a month or two of meeting the time criteria then maybe you would stand a chance but even then I wouldn't hold out much hope. The webpage was written before the tightening up a criteria for foreigners last September. Now, I doubt very seriously if they would consider anything that is less than the minimum criteria.

In Singapore a Senior SE isn't anything special as the title is not really indicative of your actual job scope, but frankly that doesn't matter much anyway. You can apply. But I'd say it's a exercise in futility frankly. Your chances are about a good as MS operating systems are of being secure.

sms

[FaeLLe]

I guess Software Services was never a core function of services being provided out of Singapore. Guess they are trying to develop in house capabilities towards a drive to be self sufficient.

But it seems MOM systems have some sort of automation and algorithmic processing mechanisms. I have seen EP even P2 being approved in less than 24 hours for some people I know, like at the time of next batch processing.

They must have some rule sets to determine the eligibility criteria. Especially with the integration of FIN it would work well.

[sundaymorningstaple]

They do. But the problem is they, obviously, will not give out that kind of information. And rightly so, as you would have people writing CVs and applications "tailor" made to beat the systems. You read about them on this forum all the time asking each other how did they go about the process of getting approved, yadda, yadda, yadda. Fortunately, MOM, with the overseas task forces verifying data, educational claims and histories in the various countries where the bulk of foreigners come here from, most are caught and rejected. Often this is why it takes longer for some than for others. As MOM will not divulge the reasons for rejection, this way the reader cannot compile any sort of dossier to use for creative application purposes.

I personally hope MOM catches all of them and rejects them. Maybe then, the foreigners who DO get in will actually be assets here instead of just a foreigners taking some local's job or trying to "collect" PR's or otherwise abuse the system.

[roberto8080]

I don't think MOM verifies thoroughly the applications. My PEP was approved in a week and they never verified with either my bank in Australia (they need to ask me for deliver such information first, unless they did something dodgy on my back) neither with my last employment about my income. As a matter of fact, I was unemployed when I applied for the PEP last October.

If a visa is denied they should write completely the reasons, it's quality of service!

[sundaymorningstaple]

If a visa is denied they should write completely the reasons, it's quality of service!

Totally incorrect. And it's not quality of service. It's quality of applicant. If it were known, exactly what MOM was looking for, then all the applications would be written "just so". Therefore, Singapore has to protect it's interests from those who would knowingly defraud the system. Just because your qualifications weren't checked out, doesn't mean that that don't do it selectively, based of the application and the way it looks as a whole. Additionally, don't you think that the Government has agreements with those that it contacts for information? Especially, educational qualifications. That information is obtained in Strict confidence and neither would MOM OR the agency/company giving the information tell you either.

[roberto8080]

Unfortunately that would be illegal. They have to tell me, my privacy is protected by Australian Federal laws, only the Federal government can access my information. However, to be sure maybe I should ask MOM, however I guess they won't tell me because that'd be too much information about their procedures.

From my point of view, and citing in my defence ISO9000 (remember the plan-do-check-act model?) it's definitely quality of service. Otherwise we're assuming that the people processing the visas will never ever fail under no circumstance. Maybe they forgot to do some checkings, maybe my boss hates me and didn't support my case, maybe there was a glitch in the software processing the applications. How do we know if they're doing a good job?

I also applied for a Tier-1 in the UK, they explain in horrible detail what they need from you in order to be approved, from age to qualifications, to English levels. However, the number of Tier-1 visas approved aren't increasing! Furthermore, after a visa is denied, they have to explain by law, point by point what was wrong. So we can't say for sure that if they are transparent with the procedures, we'll be flooded with thousands of immigrants!

I rest my case

[sundaymorningstaple]

Actually, with your last paragraph, you didn't rest your case, you just destroyed it. The last thing that Singapore wants it to become a disaster like the UK has become with it's hoards of immigrants of suspect qualities and abilities and no recourse but to pay them the taxpayers money on the dole, etc,. etc.

I hate to say it, but normally, depending where you are from and where you go to school has a large bearing on "how" much checking is actually done. I've actually lost employees who had been working for 6 months on valid visas before getting a letter from MOM saying that they had received words from their field agents that those two employees degrees were suspect as they could not be verified. So it does happen. I'm not giving anecdotal evidence, but 1st had knowledge.

[roberto8080]

Again incorrect. A Tier-1 visa is a high skilled migrant with no access to benefits from the government, similar to PEP, but only for 3 years, you can't simply get that visa and ask for money like a citizen (although I wish I could ). Although it's arguably that the UK is a "disaster", let's have another example: Danish greencard visa (isn't a PR by the way, they just liked calling it "green card" ), you can even call Denmark directly and ask for clarification about your application and your certifications, still I don't see the "disaster" in Denmark!!

If MOM really trusts its methods and procedures I don't see why they can't give an explanation. Yourself are mentioning that particular case: if the degrees can't be verified then they issue a letter saying so and politely ask to leave the country. Or they can just ask you to leave the country without further explanation. Again, we come back to quality of service. That would be equivalent to be expelled from my University without further explanation, "because if we tell them why, all students will cheat and get high distinctions and we'll be flooded with bad students".

Actually I think is the opposite effect: if you explain in clear detail that unless you meet certain criteria you won't get a PEP, many people would just give up, or at least I wouldn't bother.

[sundaymorningstaple]

Let's put it another way then. This is not the UK, nor is it Denmark or for that matter any other country you might want to hold up as a tenative yardstick. The way Singapore operates, has worked beyond belief in it's short but very effect 44 years. While you don't have to agree with their methods, you do have to agree that the results. And by ANY yardstick is phenomenal. Frankly, they don't really care what you or for that matter any other country thinks. They never have. They are going to do it their way anyway. Those that don't agree, don't have to stay. Very simple really, conform to their rules in their country, or jump on a big silvery bird out at Changi. They embrace ISO whatever thousand if it is convenient for them to do so. e.g., it's to their advantage. Why should they adopt something that they have seen fail countless times in other countries? Doesn't make any sense. They have never followed mainstream thought, yet are more successful than most. Wy should they now? They probably came out of the last mess better than most if not all.

I might be technically incorrect. But factually, look at the UK's current straights and look at Singapore. There's not a lot of comparison is there. So you can keep on spouting about how it's not good service all you want. At the end of the day, it's the Government's bottom line that counts. They didn't ask you to come, you asked them. Be thankful that they didn't find you wanting. You really don't have any grouse at all.

Why do they need to politely ask criminal elements (fraud) to leave the country. They were found to be breaking the law. When found to have broken the llaw, you just deport them. I think you will find that's what most countries do. They didn't invent the word deport. Matter of fact, I believe your Australia was populated initially by "deported" criminal elements right? So it's not anything new is it.

Having been in HR for the past 16 years, I've got sad news for you. You would be surprised at what some of the individuals will try in order to get a foot into Singapore. Heck, for that matter, read some of the threads on this forum.

[sundaymorningstaple]

That would be equivalent to be expelled from my University without further explanation, "because if we tell them why, all students will cheat and get high distinctions and we'll be flooded with bad students".

I know, from you being on here, that you are computer literate. Have you seen the numbers of online universities? And degree mills? Where you can get a degree just be declaring you have been doing a certain job for donkey's years? There are a couple of countries in SE Asia where almost all the degrees can be purchased from the junta bosses for the right price and can also be notarized by those countries embassies/consulates here in Singapore for a sum of money as well.

[roberto8080]

Those that don't agree, don't have to stay. Very simple really, conform to their rules in their country, or jump on a big silvery bird out at Changi.

I got it now, no criticism at all allowed, thank you Big Brother, you are all correct of course, how did I dare to challenge such sacred word? My apologies, so the war has always been with Eastasia right? or Eurasia? Whatever it's irrelevant I guess.

Well, you might not be aware, but they DID ask people to come, otherwise they shouldn't go to those career fairs in countries with better HDI than Singapore (which apparently is a yardstick that doesn't count anyway) to come here.

Don't get me wrong, this country can do better, they've done amazing things in a short time that maybe only South Korea can say the same, but if no way to improve is allowed and all criticism is suppressed they will end up in the corner of the world, when they can be leading the world! It's just about improving quality. Do you think Australian immigration quality is better? Their policy is far better, but the implementation of their policy is currently a bloody nightmare, my God, those guys are giving me headaches. But the fact that I like their country doesn't mean I'll sit and say nothing.

Hey hold on! Can I get a degree online AND notarised? Why in the hell did I waste my time and money in a postgraduate degree? Sniff, sniff.... I should've spent all that money with girls at the pub... :'(

[sundaymorningstaple]

Those that don't agree, don't have to stay. Very simple really, conform to their rules in their country, or jump on a big silvery bird out at Changi.

I got it now, no criticism at all allowed, thank you Big Brother, you are all correct of course, how did I dare to challenge such sacred word? My apologies, so the war has always been with Eastasia right? or Eurasia? Whatever it's irrelevant I guess.

You can criticize the government all you want. As long as you can back it up with facts. Ask the IHT about that. And if you want to challenge the government sacred word, feel free do do so. It's not my country. I just work here. And what war? What the devil are you on about?

Well, you might not be aware, but they DID ask people to come, otherwise they shouldn't go to those career fairs in countries with better HDI than Singapore (which apparently is a yardstick that doesn't count anyway) to come here.

I said, did they ask YOU to come. I know they go to the top universities in various countries and hold job fairs to secure the top graduates if they can. That's how they are able to keep turning on a dime here.

Don't get me wrong, this country can do better, they've done amazing things in a short time that maybe only South Korea can say the same, but if no way to improve is allowed and all criticism is suppressed they will end up in the corner of the world, when they can be leading the world! It's just about improving quality. Do you think Australian immigration quality is better? Their policy is far better, but the implementation of their policy is currently a bloody nightmare, my God, those guys are giving me headaches. But the fact that I like their country doesn't mean I'll sit and say nothing.

Actually, that's probably exactly what you will do. If, that is, you possibly might want to continue to work here. You wouldn't be the first to get their pass not renewed for no obvious reason if you were to mouth off too much. The government here tends to stifle dissent especially if from a foreign source. Do some searches to see how many journalists that have been sued for too much noise that they could not back up.

Hey hold on! Can I get a degree online AND notarised? Only if you are holding the right citizenship. Why in the hell did I waste my time and money in a postgraduate degree? Good Question! Sniff, sniff.... I should've spent all that money with girls at the pub... :'(

With the silly conversation we are having at the moment, I think we both spent our money at the pub!

[ProvenPracticalFlexible]

ISO9000, well interesting to bring that in into immigration question, and what a great “misinterpretation”

[roberto8080]

And what war? What the devil are you on about?

Ha, ha, sorry I forgot to quote: is from 1984, the book by George Orwell, is a great book to read, many modern concepts such as "Big Brother" or "doublethink" actually come from there.

I have so much fun challenging the system, I don't think I'll keep my mouth closed. The PEP can't be renewed anyway, and if I'm deported well isn't the end of the world... I guess

You will need to keep reading the full document of ISO to understand how requirements are set and how quality failures are managed. Quality is not set against a set of absolute requirements such as 100% applications approved or rejected. Quality is the process, not your business outcome. In ISO they specify how you can achieve quality or works towards quality by planning and managing your failures, it's next to impossible to suppress defects, but you can manage them. Check the part about Quality Management System.

Toyota for example, I'm pretty sure they're still certified in 9000/9001, not because they didn't have any defects (and oh hell they did BIG mistakes) but because they have a quality system in which they could accept errors and (hopefully) improve. A bad quality approach (under international standards) would have been to tell all customers that no one is forcing them to buy Toyota cars, and remind them that Toyota is a leading manufacturer of cars, and more successful than American and German companies, so they all should shut up their whining mouths and buy other cars if they want because they're successful as they are and they don't need to change, and they don't need to explain anything to anyone or sent apologies letters of any sort. However, understanding they're not an island and that they still want to play in the international field, well they took the international quality approach.