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Postby Strong Eagle » Sun, 04 Apr 2010 9:04 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:They don't need to be specific. They only need to be pragmatic. That way, the ball is always in their court. By NOT being specific, they hold the upper hand as they can enforce it any time that they like or they can overlook it at their pleasure. There is nothing the individual can do, because at the end of the day, they have covered the bases. If they feel like making an example out of someone, they have all they need in order to do so. They do the same thing at MOM when rejecting EP/WP's and ICA when rejecting PR applications. By not divulging the reasons for rejection, they eliminate the applications being "written" for approval. Gives them the upper hand. Makes sense to me.


And at the same time, it give the authorities wiggle room for those cases that are deserving on merit and yet may not technically meet the letter of the law.

I've seen examples of the law that, when applied with exacting specificity to a particular case, make a mockery of the intent. At least here I've seen people treated fairly (and yes, unfairly).

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 09 Apr 2010 5:32 am

john_nyc_71 wrote:Exactly my thoughts. The laws as written gives the govt discretion to take away citizenship from some an yet close their eyes to others. It's a pretty stark contrast to the UK and the US, where the guidelines from work permits, PR and citizenship are a lot more clearly spelt out. But it is perfectly consistent with the way the SG govt behaves.


John

If you are still in doubt and for those that still trying to find a loop hole or any means read this.BTW since 1965 the constitution was rewrittens approx 11 times just on Immigration only /
Read SG Consitution on Immigration Chap 133 Clause A, B , C. You will know what I mean. If below is NOT CRYSTAL CLEAR ENOUGH, I really do not know how to put it across anymore
What SE, SMS and myself have trying to say all along
Please read below by DPM Wong Kang Seng
This was taken out of a context
05 February 2009
Ministry Of Home Affairs Committee Of Supply Debate 2009 - Speech By DPM Wong Kan Seng – Security & Counter Terrorism, 05 February 2009

Dual Citizenship

17. Let me now turn to Dr Lam Pin Min’s question on dual citizenship. To survive and prosper as a nation, Singapore needs to compete with other countries for human capital. We must continue to ensure that Singapore remains an attractive place in all aspects, not only as an immigration destination for other nationalities, but also as a best home for our own people.

18. There are many countries which recognise dual citizenship and there are others considering this option like Dr Lam mentioned, perhaps believing that this is a way of retaining and attracting talent. They have to decide what is best for them, in the context of their political, social and historical development.

19. For Singapore, we are a young nation and we are still in the process of forging our national identity. Citizenship is and should be for us a badge of commitment, for those who are born here, and also for those who come from overseas and make this their home. A commitment to this country and a willingness to defend its sovereignty is first and foremost what we are about as a nation.

20. I do not think that allowing dual citizenship is the right course for us at this point in time. However, we will keep our options open and review this position in future if necessary.

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Postby john_nyc_71 » Fri, 09 Apr 2010 8:22 am

I am actually talking about the technical distinction between law and policy here, and my understanding is that dual citizenship is not against the law ("illegal") but it is against the policy of the SG govt. I apologize if this has caused any confusion - whenever I have said that dual citizenship was not illegal, I am referring to law, not policy.

I'm aware of DPM's speech below. However, to the best of my understanding, they way the government has chosen to implement this is not by actually having a law that explicitly bans dual citizenship or passports (if there is such a law I still have not been able to locate it so if anyone know of one please send me a pointer), but by deciding to enforce the provision in the current law that allows the government to take away the SG citizenship of someone who has acquired another citizenship.

If this is correct, it is still true that it is not illegal to have two citizenships or passports. It just means that if the SG govt finds out, they will as a matter of policy choose to take away your SG citizenship (but they are actually not legally obligated to). It also means that there is no penalty for holding two citizenships as along as you have not violated any other law (eg lied on a passport application or entered SG on a foreign passport).

On the related note, it is well know that the SG govt permits minors to hold dual citizenship. I cannot find this explicitly laid out in the law or the constitution of Singapore (again, if I am wrong here, please point me to the relevant law). My conclusion, therefore, is that this is a matter of policy and not law: the SG govt does not exercise its right to take away the SG citizenship of dual citizens if they are minors.

This current system (as I understand it) raises lots of interesting legal questions. If someone acquires a foreign citizenship, doesn't lie to the SG govt about it on a SG passport renewal application or any other form*, and also never renounces his SG citizenship formally, and the SG govt never finds out about this foreign citizenship, it would appear that he would still legally be a citizen, even if the lack of a current SG passport may limit his ability to exercise some of the benefits of the citizenship.

(*To the best of my knowledge, there are only 3 applications that ask about your other citizenships: passport renewal, application to register children born abroad as citizens, and applications to vote overseas.)

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 09 Apr 2010 5:15 pm

[quote="john_nyc_71"]I am actually talking about the technical distinction between law and policy here, and my understanding is that dual citizenship is not against the law ("illegal") but it is against the policy of the SG govt.

This is incorrect. Once a policy is table in the parliament , it will become a law once motion by member of the Parliament and went into sitting. The law is passed based on the policy that was table
Your understanding is totally misplaced. This was taken out from the Constitution Amendment after chap 133. Please read

* Singapore does not allow its citizen to hold dual nationality. Under the Articles 134 and 135 of the Singapore Constitution, a Singapore citizen may be deprived of his citizenship if he is 18 years old or above and has:

a) voluntarily acquired foreign citizenship, or having acquired such citizenship before the age of 18 years, continues to retain it;

b) voluntarily exercised any of the rights of the citizens of nationals of a foreign country, such as voting in that country’s elections; or

c) applied for the issue or renewal of a foreign passport or used a foreign passport as a travel document.

* Under the Enlistment Act, all male Singapore citizens by birth or registration and permanent residents (PR) are liable for National Service (NS) when they reach the age of 16½ years. They are required to serve 2 or 2½ years of full-time service and up to 40 days of NS every year until the age of 50 for officers or 40 for the others.

Young Singaporeans who are accompanying their parents on overseas ventures must also discharge their NS obligations even if they have lived and studied away from Singapore for a period of time. This is regardless of whether they have taken up another citizenship. Those who are overseas and cannot register for NS in person should register by post by contacting the Central Manpower Base (CMPB). For those who are 11 years and above, accompanying their parents who are on overseas employment, a monetary bond of $75,000 or the sum of 50% of their parents’ combined annual income, whichever is higher, must be furnished. The monetary bond may be waived for parents who meet the requirements to apply for bond by deed with two sureties. A monetary bond will still be required for those who go overseas for other reasons (e.g. studies). It is an offence under the Enlistment Act to stay overseas without a valid EP or to fail to register for NS.

For clarifications on the various exit control measures and application details, please contact :

a) For males between 11 and 16½ years old:

Director, ICA
10 Kallang Road
Singapore 208718
Tel: (65) 6391 6100 (for general enquiries on passport extension)
(65) 6391 6276 or 6391 6171 (for enquiries on bond requirements)
Fax: (65) 6298 0837, 6298 0843
Internet: http://www.ICA.gov.sg
Email address: ICA_FEEDBACK@ICA.gov.sg

b) For males 16½ years old and above, who have yet to enlist for full-time NS:

Commander, CMPB
3 Depot Road
Singapore 109680
Tel: (65) 6373 3139
Fax: (65) 6373 3173
Internet: http://www.miw.com.sg
Email address: dotpointer@miw.com.sg

* A Singapore citizen of or over the age of 21 years and of sound mind who is about to become a citizen of another country may apply to renounce his Singapore Citizenship. However, the Government may withhold the registration of a declaration of renunciation-

a) if the declaration is made during any war in which Singapore is engaged; or

b) if the declaration is made by a person subject to the Enlistment Act unless he has

(i) discharge his liability for full-time service under section 12 of the Act;

(ii) rendered at least 3 years of reserve service under section 13 of that Act in lieu of such full-time service; or

(iii) compiled with such conditions as may be determined by Government.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 09 Apr 2010 5:43 pm

[quote="john_nyc_71"]

On the related note, it is well know that the SG govt permits minors to hold dual citizenship. I cannot find this explicitly laid out in the law or the constitution of Singapore (again, if I am wrong here, please point me to the relevant law). My conclusion, therefore, is that this is a matter of policy and not law: the SG govt does not exercise its right to take away the SG citizenship of dual citizens if they are minors.

BTW, I forgot to pass this to you. A child whose parent by descent is a Sger can apply for the child SG citizenship within one year the child is born.If you register the child application after the first year, income earned and other docs need to be submitted hence more work. However read on.....

Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent/registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty within 12 months on attaining the age of 21 years to remain as Singapore Citizens.

If the Oath is not taken, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years.

Failure to take the Oath and the consequences
If one fails to take the Oath within 12 months on attaining the age of 21 years, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years and there is no assurance that he/she can continue studying, working or residing in Singapore as a foreigner on any form of student pass, work pass, social visit pass or as a permanent resident.

Eligibility
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent or registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty upon attaining 21 years of age and before attaining 22 years of age.

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Postby vangoh » Mon, 03 May 2010 10:41 pm

john_nyc_71 wrote:Here is the way I see it.

If you renew your passport in the US and declare truthfully that you have acquired the citizenship of another country:
(1) There is a small chance based on rumours that your passport may be renewed anyway.
(2) Mostly like your passport will not be renewed. In that event one of two things can happen.
(a) The SG govt does nothing further. You remain legally a Singapore citizen but without a passport it is of not that much use. There is also a question of whether you are breaking the law if you subsequently enter Singapore on a US passport.
(b) The SG govt takes active action to revoke your SG citizenship.
I do not know which of (a) or (b) is likely to happen.

If you travel to SG on your US passport, here are the possible scenarios.
(1) ICA does not realize you are a SG citizen. Nothing happens.
(2) ICA realizes you are a SG citizen but lets you enter using your US passport anyway. No further action is taken.
(3) ICA realizes you are a SG citizen and takes action that may comprise one or both of the following.
(a) You are forced to choose between SG and US citizenship. (If you don't choose, the SG govt takes active action to revoke your SG citizenship.)
(b) You are fined (or subject to some other penalty) for being a SG citizen and not entering on your SG passport.
I do not know the relative likelihood of the various scenarios. If you were not born in Singapore, (1) may be likely, but this doesn't seem to be the case for you.

I wonder if it actually possible to make a phone call to someone (perhaps anonymously - eg call the SG consulate in the US) to find out what the policy is. Like maybe ask if it even makes sense to submit a passport application with the declaration that you have acquired the citizenship of another country.


I called SG consulate in NY and all they said was that SG do not permit dual citizenship. Nothing more.
One other question - under scenario 3a, if the SG govt revoke my SG citizenship, what will happen to my CPF, medisave and the HDB flat (in my name) where my parent are currently living in?

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 04 May 2010 4:10 am

vangoh wrote:
I called SG consulate in NY and all they said was that SG do not permit dual citizenship. Nothing more.

Correct and I have been telling this all along. So what is it that you want us to help you ? What john nyc said is incorrect and I have posted the reply b4 this to prove what the consitution and the law said.


One other question - under scenario 3a, if the SG govt revoke my SG citizenship, what will happen to my CPF, medisave and the HDB flat (in my name) where my parent are currently living in?


When you are caught or if you tell them? If it is the former, the whole shehbang happens very quickly. I do NOT think your CPF will be frozen but delayed yes , make it difficult , yes and most probably
HDB flat you have to transfer to your parents name and they or yourself have to top up back to CPF the money taken out from your CPF account by cash or cheque or from your parents.. Once you become a ex-Sger you cannot hold HDB flats. Read another post from this guy trout which has the same issue
If it is the latter, well is like Russian Roullette , I cannot answer you this


Does this makes sense to you ?

MS
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Postby vv2288 » Sat, 19 Jun 2010 10:01 am

hi vangoh

what is your decision? have u renewed your sg passport?

thank u

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Postby vangoh » Sat, 04 Sep 2010 12:20 am

No. Still contemplating.

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OK... been there, done that.

Postby lty1973 » Wed, 10 Nov 2010 1:52 pm

On Entering Singapore on a Foreign Passport:-

(1) Entering the country with a foreign passport which states Singapore as your place of birth, does not necessarily flag you for detention or additional questioning. And, it shouldn't since you could have been born there to foreign parents or you could have already given up your Singapore citizenship.

(2) My experience is that they do not question you about it at all. The last entry was in 2008, so perhaps things have changed but they didn't in 2008, in 2007, in 2003 or in 1998 when I entered on a US passport.

On leaving Singapore after age 13 and before age 21 without the completing of NS:-

(1) You can do it without paying the >$75,000 bond. The catch here is that they will only give you a 30 day exit permit and a 3 month passport extension.

(2) This does not prevent you from leaving on the pretense of a short vacation then, upon landing in a foreign country, seek permanent residency or citizenship under whatever guidelines that country has. If you are planning on immigrating to the USA, the complication is that the US embassy will only grant immigrant VISAs if you present a passport with >= 6 month validity. However, this doesn't prevent you from entering the country on a tourist visa then scrambling to the USCIS (formerly INS) office within the US and applying for a green card if you already qualify. Eg. Your parents are just moved over on just immigrated, you marry a US citizen, you won the green card lottery, political asylum or whatever. You can also fly to St Kitts or some country where you can buy citizenship and their passport for a few tens of thousands of dollars.

(3) You'll be a fugitive, but there is nothing the S'porean authorities can do about it unless you ever try to enter Singapore. If you do, and they figure out who you are, you will be arrested. They can't make you serve NS because you are already a foreign citizen and refuse to pledge allegiance to Singapore hence cannot be a soldier. But, they can fine you and jail you for up to 3 years. Given the flight risk, it may not be easy to get out on bail or simply escape from custody so you can go hide in your embassy demanding extraction from the country.

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Re: OK... been there, done that.

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 10 Nov 2010 4:12 pm

lty1973 wrote:On Entering Singapore on a Foreign Passport:-

(1) Entering the country with a foreign passport which states Singapore as your place of birth, does not necessarily flag you for detention or additional questioning. And, it shouldn't since you could have been born there to foreign parents or you could have already given up your Singapore citizenship.

(2) My experience is that they do not question you about it at all. The last entry was in 2008, so perhaps things have changed but they didn't in 2008, in 2007, in 2003 or in 1998 when I entered on a US passport.

Which means you really don't have a clue what is currently being implemented with regards to the combined databases of all the various ministries of the Singapore government that has taken place over the past 18 months. If you have ever been a Singapore citizen your name is forever enshrined in their databases. As of yet, we don't have a clue as to how developed their programs are but how hard would it be, considering the small population. With only around 22K born a year, how many would be born on a certain day, of a certain race, who have not yet be ROD's from their military service so are already flagged as deserters due to their age? Interesting, no? :-k

On leaving Singapore after age 13 and before age 21 without the completing of NS:-

(1) You can do it without paying the >$75,000 bond. The catch here is that they will only give you a 30 day exit permit and a 3 month passport extension.

I think everybody knows this. I just returned from a trip to the US with my son after getting permission from CMPB as his physical was scheduled 4 days after my return at the end of last month.

(2) This does not prevent you from leaving on the pretense of a short vacation then, upon landing in a foreign country, seek permanent residency or citizenship under whatever guidelines that country has. If you are planning on immigrating to the USA, the complication is that the US embassy will only grant immigrant VISAs if you present a passport with >= 6 month validity. However, this doesn't prevent you from entering the country on a tourist visa then scrambling to the USCIS (formerly INS) office within the US and applying for a green card if you already qualify. Eg. Your parents are just moved over on just immigrated, you marry a US citizen, you won the green card lottery, political asylum or whatever. You can also fly to St Kitts or some country where you can buy citizenship and their passport for a few tens of thousands of dollars.

(3) You'll be a fugitive, but there is nothing the S'porean authorities can do about it unless you ever try to enter Singapore. If you do, and they figure out who you are, you will be arrested. They can't make you serve NS because you are already a foreign citizen and refuse to pledge allegiance to Singapore hence cannot be a soldier. But, they can fine you and jail you for up to 3 years. Given the flight risk, it may not be easy to get out on bail or simply escape from custody so you can go hide in your embassy demanding extraction from the country.

Funny thing, that fugitive status thingy. You never know what the future will hold. Have you ever wondered how Singapore manages to pick up the odd drug mule in transit lounges of Changi? They haven't even come through immigration yet. You never know when a flight you are on will be diverted to Changi and you find yourself where you don't want to be through no fault of your own. It could ruin your plans for a couple of years. :o

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Re: OK... been there, done that.

Postby lty1973 » Thu, 11 Nov 2010 7:48 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Which means you really don't have a clue what is currently being implemented with regards to the combined databases of all the various ministries of the Singapore government that has taken place over the past 18 months. If you have ever been a Singapore citizen your name is forever enshrined in their databases. As of yet, we don't have a clue as to how developed their programs are but how hard would it be, considering the small population. With only around 22K born a year, how many would be born on a certain day, of a certain race, who have not yet be ROD's from their military service so are already flagged as deserters due to their age? Interesting, no? :-k



In my case, the name on my US passport as no relationship to my name when I was a S'porean. Changed the spelling on the surname created a new first name, dropped the chinese names altogether.They'll have to run the finger prints to find out. That's not something that you can do on the fly.

One of the reasons for fleeing NS is very simple and obvious. You or your parent(s) win the US green card lottery, that's only good for that year. You either use it that year or lose it. You cannot say I need to go spend 2 years in the army some place and immigrate 2 years later. In fact, even if the parents leave and you don't, once you are 21 you no longer qualify for immediate permanent residency. They can still apply for you in under the parent-child, child-parent family unification provisions, but it takes years -- something like 5~7 years.

If you have already made up your mind that you do not want to be Singaporean and you are willing never ever enter the country again, the decision will be a simple one. There is no reason to waste 2 years of your life and suffer through enlistment for a country you no longer have allegiance to or want to be part of. There is even less reason to give up you eligibility for US residency by passing on the opportunity to immigrate, knowing that if you don't go now it'll take years to qualify again. You'll go, and not look back.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 11 Nov 2010 8:37 am

That's what the Piano Man, Melvin Tan, thought as well.......

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Postby lty1973 » Thu, 11 Nov 2010 9:48 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:That's what the Piano Man, Melvin Tan, thought as well.......


Well, that guy paid a $3000 fine. No big deal IMHO. If that's all there is to it most people won't care a bit.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:41 am

He also got the government to relook at the penalties for said offenses and now they are going to be much harder.......

The biggest way to cause the government to close a loophole or change the law is to use it and then brag about it in the open. Oops! another loophole closed.


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