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Born overseas - Renouncing Singapore Citizenship

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 11:06 am

Kraikk

IMHO, this stressless, is throwing a smoke grenade on us. Here we are trying to help helpless soul on their problems , worries and there he is post something stupid like "like he has already renounce but got a NS defaulter letter from Mindef. The last post said his PR is approved"
First of all he cannot renounce if he defaults his NS which is a BIG LIE
Secondly, once he is a defaulter how in the world did he got his PR approved , which ANOTHER BIG LIE.
I posted a question to him on this issue, till now, no reply which tells me something, he is a bunch of good for nothing crap !!

Let us wait and let him show us with proof what I say is wrong and I will humbly eat a humble pie .

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Postby kraikk » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 1:14 pm

Yes stressless is probably trolling but I was referring to ltw1977. Wonder if there is any way out if baby is only two months old. After all one can apply for Singaporean citizenship by descent up to one year old. Maybe can argue or beg to allow renunciation before one year. Of course I'm just speculating. Very unlikely.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 3:22 pm

kraikk wrote:Yes stressless is probably trolling but I was referring to ltw1977. Wonder if there is any way out if baby is only two months old. After all one can apply for Singaporean citizenship by descent up to one year old. Maybe can argue or beg to allow renunciation before one year. Of course I'm just speculating. Very unlikely.


Kraikk

Damn those troll who muddied the water (':x')

I did reply to ltw post and this is what I said. This is not a problem at all.
I cannot understand why he wants to go thru and negotiate the minefield at later stage when he can do away with it now ':???:')

SMS , just to share info with you, he can do it now if he informs ICA that he does not want the child to hold SG Citizenship. If the child applied for SG PP, he should return it NOW to ICA.
Once done, ICA will reply to the parents that the child is no more a SG Citizen and his SG PP has been canceled. Once this is done, No Ns , No EP and no worries

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 15 Jun 2010 4:11 pm

I pretty much figured as much, especially if it's done before the child reaches it's first birthday or possibly een up to the point just before the child starts schooling. But after that, I wouldn't bet a tinker's dam on it.

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Postby RL345610 » Sun, 01 Aug 2010 12:13 am

I am a Singaporean and completed my NS and working in the UK. I still have my passport.
Reading all these in the forum - I just wondered if all these folk apply for Exit Permit for their children from whatever age, how about the CMPB $75,000 bond (or 50% of parent's yearly gross salary)? Surely MINDEF will ask for the money and will they ever get it back when they renounce citizenship.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Sun, 01 Aug 2010 3:11 pm

RL345610 wrote:I am a Singaporean and completed my NS and working in the UK. I still have my passport.
Reading all these in the forum - I just wondered if all these folk apply for Exit Permit for their children from whatever age, how about the CMPB $75,000 bond (or 50% of parent's yearly gross salary)? Surely MINDEF will ask for the money and will they ever get it back when they renounce citizenship.


Not that straight forward as you may have understood.
for those child going overseas between the age of 13 to 18 and wanting to apply for EP for less than 2 yrs, no bond nor sureties is needed. If you travel less than 3 months no EP is required. However if you intend to study overseas for more than 2 yrs and applying the EP to that effect , a $75K or 50% of parent income is required to be placed with MINDEF as a security so as the child can return after their studies to serve the NS. Alternatively is to provide two sureties, one a living relative in Sg and the parent.
Most of the parent will provide sureties. For the return of bond money, it is quite straight forward as legalities surrounds it.
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Postby ladygaga » Fri, 13 Aug 2010 2:43 am

hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, but very glad that I found it. My situation is rather similar to ltw1977, so I'm going to hijack this thread with my story.

My son is now 8 yo, was born in the US, and carries a US passport. However, I believed I made the mistake of applying for Singapore citizenship for him, before he turned one, without considering the NS consequences.

He has never lived in Singapore, but visited three times on his US passport. Both my husband and I are SGer, own HDB flat, have ties in Singapore. But we haven't acquired citizenship of another country.

My question is, is my son liable for NS?

We want to keep Singapore option open for us, and hence want to know the scenarios that apply to us, including NS liabilities, etc.

Another thing that may affect our ability to apply for exit permit after he turns 13 is, he's a homeschooler. Hence, getting school attendance, school report will be a problem.

Any advice or help will be greatly appreciated!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 13 Aug 2010 4:28 am

ladygaga wrote:hello everyone, I'm new to the forum, but very glad that I found it. My situation is rather similar to ltw1977, so I'm going to hijack this thread with my story.

My son is now 8 yo, was born in the US, and carries a US passport. However, I believed I made the mistake of applying for Singapore citizenship for him, before he turned one, without considering the NS consequences.

You must have given birth in the US while working there in order to get a US PP and Citizneship hence he is not a naturalised US citizen. Am I right ?Are you guys still living there?

He has never lived in Singapore, but visited three times on his US passport. Both my husband and I are SGer, own HDB flat, have ties in Singapore. But we haven't acquired citizenship of another country.

No worries on that

My question is, is my son liable for NS?

We want to keep Singapore option open for us, and hence want to know the scenarios that apply to us, including NS liabilities, etc.

1. If you want him to renounce now, he can as he is still under the age of 11. As such he will no longer be required to serve NS. However to work here maybe remote chance as he has not enjoyed SG socio economic benefit . To get PR or SG citizenship don't count on it.
2. If he chose to serve NS at 18, he has to decide at the age of 21 on which Citizenship he wishes to hold albeit US or SG. If he decides to hold the latter, he must take an oath of allegiance and renounce US citizenship. According to Taxico, you can get your US PP and citizenship again but it is damn difficult. I cannot advise you on this only Taxico can. If you decide to go on this route then he hold SG at 21 onwards and acquire his US PP later by ring fencing the system. The only issue is SG PP has a 5 yr validity and renewal of it will require you to declare if you hold a second citizenship which is NOT ALLOWED by SG Consitution, hence the matter of perjury on the renewal documents which is a punishable offense


Another thing that may affect our ability to apply for exit permit after he turns 13 is, he's a homeschooler. Hence, getting school attendance, school report will be a problem.

This is not an issue. Get the Education Department in US to give you a letter of proof that your son is under home schooling program. Get it stamp and notorise it by a public notary. Proof of education achievement is vital too for supporting document.


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Postby ladygaga » Fri, 13 Aug 2010 6:06 am

Hi Mad Scientist,

Thanks so much for the quick response! I have a few items to clarify with you if you don't mind:

Mad Scientist wrote:
You must have given birth in the US while working there in order to get a US PP and Citizneship hence he is not a naturalised US citizen. Am I right ?Are you guys still living there? ....

1. If you want him to renounce now, he can as he is still under the age of 11. As such he will no longer be required to serve NS. However to work here maybe remote chance as he has not enjoyed SG socio economic benefit . To get PR or SG citizenship don't count on it.


Yes, you are correct that he was born in the US while my husband and I were there for work reasons. So he is US citizen by birth while we no longer work in the US. We are actually in Canada now as PRs (whole family including my son).

When you say "if you want him to renounce now", do you mean that actually he CAN renounce his SG citizenship now, at the age of 8? Or did you mean "now" as in we still have to follow the normal route of filing intention to renounce before age 11, applying for exit permit at 13 etc. etc... (I have followed other threads on the details of the steps advised). This sounds interesting but I have not heard any other cases where the child at so young an age is allowed by the govt to renounce citizenship, I thought he must turn 21 first.


Mad Scientist wrote:This is not an issue. Get the Education Department in US to give you a letter of proof that your son is under home schooling program. Get it stamp and notorise it by a public notary. Proof of education achievement is vital too for supporting document.


Well it might be a little more confusing: As we live in Canada now, he is registered as a homeschooler here in Canada, but he is a US citizen (again by birth) and US passport holder. He does not hold Canada PP, only Canadian PR. Do you know if SG would recognize the Canadian homeschool registration for purposes of issuing the exit permit on grounds of "overseas study" when he turns 13? Furthermore, I guess this would also be a moot point if I understood you correctly in the point above that he can actually just completely renounce SG even now at age 8 (so long as done before age 11)?

One more question for now: Would my husband and I also need to renounce our SG before my son could renounce his, assuming that he is not going to serve NS and he could renounce SG even as soon as this year?

Thanks in advance!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 13 Aug 2010 6:32 am

ladygaga wrote:When you say "if you want him to renounce now", do you mean that actually he CAN renounce his SG citizenship now, at the age of 8? Or did you mean "now" as in we still have to follow the normal route of filing intention to renounce before age 11, applying for exit permit at 13 etc. etc... (I have followed other threads on the details of the steps advised). This sounds interesting but I have not heard any other cases where the child at so young an age is allowed by the govt to renounce citizenship, I thought he must turn 21 first.

We had one family here where I lived having the similar issue well, almost. We helped them to prepare the letter to ICA stating that you are the parent of this child and wishes to renounce his SG PP. The child renounciation was accepted although he was 5 then.
You state that the child does not have any SG PP apart from SG Citizenship etc.. Has only travel in US PP to SG. Photocopy of PP and travel dates blah blah.....
Get the US Citizenship and SG PP notorise by Public Notary. Send to Citizen Advise Bureau ICA Kallang , you can get this at www.ica.gov.sg. Go by snail mail but registered attention Mr Steve Chew or Mrs Pang SY
They will come back and reply. 90% accepted , 5% will ask you to renounce at 21 and do exit permit at 13 and the works. 5% you are from politician family, gained scholarship from SG Gahmen etc. In this case there WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR SON TO RENOUNCE. So hubby and you have to renounce first then your son, then they will accept as long as the child does not reach 11.


Well it might be a little more confusing: As we live in Canada now, he is registered as a homeschooler here in Canada, but he is a US citizen (again by birth) and US passport holder. He does not hold Canada PP, only Canadian PR. Do you know if SG would recognize the Canadian homeschool registration for purposes of issuing the exit permit on grounds of "overseas study" when he turns 13? Furthermore, I guess this would also be a moot point if I understood you correctly in the point above that he can actually just completely renounce SG even now at age 8 (so long as done before age 11)?

I do not know the arrangement between Canada and US regrading residence and border control but as long as you can provide proof of address in Canada and Education Department in Canada , you should be alright

One more question for now: Would my husband and I also need to renounce our SG before my son could renounce his, assuming that he is not going to serve NS and he could renounce SG even as soon as this year?

This is a sticky issue, if he is allowed now then you do not have to. If he is NOT ALLOWED until the age of 21 then you have to consider to renounce first. From past experience these are best as you do not hold any ties anymore. Social visit is OK but you cannot gain work , PR or citizenship in SG. The Question of HDB house, you need to settle this first b4 renounce. It gets messy if not done first. Transfer of names to your own kinship will be the best way to go. Only paper trail and shifting of money from one pocket to another if you follow my drift
Thanks in advance!


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Postby ladygaga » Fri, 13 Aug 2010 7:57 am

Yes indeed MS! You have answered my questions. I'm truly grateful!

Mad Scientist wrote: ... 90% accepted , 5% will ask you to renounce at 21 and do exit permit at 13 and the works. 5% you are from politician family, gained scholarship from SG Gahmen etc. In this case there WILL NOT ALLOW YOUR SON TO RENOUNCE. So hubby and you have to renounce first then your son, then they will accept as long as the child does not reach 11. ...


Nope, we're not politician family nor scholars, but were ex civil servants (MOE & MDF). Not sure if that would put us into the 5%. Or worse still, no deferment whatsoever... Any ideas?

DH and I would have to think hard on this issue. If we were to let our son renounce now, should we decide to return to SG for good, he would not be able to join us. If we don't renounce now, but wait till he's 11, he would be subject to the exit permit and deferment requirements, which would also affect our decision to return etc.

I guess there isn't a straightforward answer, unless we're ready to give up SG altogether.

Thank you for your help!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 13 Aug 2010 8:18 am

ladygaga wrote:Yes indeed MS! You have answered my questions. I'm truly grateful!

Nope, we're not politician family nor scholars, but were ex civil servants (MOE & MDF). Not sure if that would put us into the 5%. Or worse still, no deferment whatsoever... Any ideas?

DH and I would have to think hard on this issue. If we were to let our son renounce now, should we decide to return to SG for good, he would not be able to join us. If we don't renounce now, but wait till he's 11, he would be subject to the exit permit and deferment requirements, which would also affect our decision to return etc.


This is my 2 cents. If you have been living overseas for sometimes i,e more than 10 yrs, chances of you wanting to come back is far more greater than your child.To reminscense the past
You have to remember those friends that you left in SG have moved on. They may not be there for you. Life will be completely different from the days you are here in SG. Everything change , you will find it hard and struggle to cope with the SG life here.
Think hard, for me , what that is in front of me in far more important than anything else.
Choices we make will have consequences in later life but having your family with you makes it less painful

Good Luck with your choices
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