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Born overseas - Renouncing Singapore Citizenship

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Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 11 Mar 2010 6:20 am

Koalabear wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:
But they always meet the quota don't they? NS defaulters are negligible numbers like less than 1%?

If i look at examples of piano man parents, norwegian dad who still work in Singapore, I think what they can do to the parents to be limited, unless they suspect parents have actively helped their son default NS.


The attrition rate is high at about 20% for the first three month of BMT. You will be surprised on what they can do to these parents.There are alot of behind the scenes things happening. I take an example of one forumer . How he was denied entry to SG University pupilage by ICA at the last days where his permit going to expire and among other things. He wrote that thread and I am not surprise at all!!
It used to be 9 men in a section and it went down to 7. When they say the new era of Army 2000 with New Gadgets and high investment of technology basically it means we are not having enough men hence we need to invest on technology instead. :cool:

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Postby manutdfan » Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:02 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
Since you are born there, you must have Norwegian passport first to travel back to SG and apply for SG passport.
Hence either way you have to face this fact.



This last bit is not the case - my wife is Singaporean and I'm pretty sure my UK born daughter got her passport through the Singapore HC in London.

My UK born son of course only holds a British passport, precisely to avoid this situation!

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Postby Mad Scientist » Thu, 11 Mar 2010 2:48 pm

[quote="manutdfan"

This last bit is not the case - my wife is Singaporean and I'm pretty sure my UK born daughter got her passport through the Singapore HC in London.

My UK born son of course only holds a British passport, precisely to avoid this situation![/quote]

I was referring to him . Yes, you can do it at the SG Mission overseas but it will take longer to process and there are quite few documents that need to be submitted which can be a hassle. If you delay the registration for more than a year , they will asked for your Income among other things. That is most find it easier to go back to SG and do it at ICA Kallang.
Back in SG no question and quick. SO it all depends on individual preferences

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Postby Koalabear » Sun, 14 Mar 2010 6:51 am

Mad Scientist wrote:[quote="manutdfan"

This last bit is not the case - my wife is Singaporean and I'm pretty sure my UK born daughter got her passport through the Singapore HC in London.

My UK born son of course only holds a British passport, precisely to avoid this situation!


I was referring to him . Yes, you can do it at the SG Mission overseas but it will take longer to process and there are quite few documents that need to be submitted which can be a hassle. If you delay the registration for more than a year , they will asked for your Income among other things. That is most find it easier to go back to SG and do it at ICA Kallang.
Back in SG no question and quick. SO it all depends on individual preferences[/quote]

Sometimes I wonder why MINDEF bother harassing these people overseas. Even if they serve for 2 years, MINDEF wasted ONE whole year training them and see them renounce their citizenship. It seriously doesn't sound like good business to me. Not to mention some of these guys made it to OCS and break off all their ties during renounciation.

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Postby Koalabear » Sun, 14 Mar 2010 6:58 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:
But they always meet the quota don't they? NS defaulters are negligible numbers like less than 1%?

If i look at examples of piano man parents, norwegian dad who still work in Singapore, I think what they can do to the parents to be limited, unless they suspect parents have actively helped their son default NS.


The attrition rate is high at about 20% for the first three month of BMT. You will be surprised on what they can do to these parents.There are alot of behind the scenes things happening. I take an example of one forumer . How he was denied entry to SG University pupilage by ICA at the last days where his permit going to expire and among other things. He wrote that thread and I am not surprise at all!!
It used to be 9 men in a section and it went down to 7. When they say the new era of Army 2000 with New Gadgets and high investment of technology basically it means we are not having enough men hence we need to invest on technology instead. :cool:


What do you mean 20% attrition rate in bmt? I've never seen people default NS when they are already in BMT.

The Malaysian student asked for it. However I've yet to see an example of how parents really suffered when their son defaulted. Sure there are the harassments to deal with and the stern warnings and here and there, but it seems quite hard to bring parents to court until MINDEF has solid evidence that the parents actions directly influenced their son to default. Im speaking from a position where I know 2 defaulters whose dad still work in singapore, even when they've defaulted for 3 and 5 years.

So far, I've yet to see any parents charged in court just because their son defaulted NS.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 15 Mar 2010 3:49 am

Koalabear wrote:
What do you mean 20% attrition rate in bmt? I've never seen people default NS when they are already in BMT.
What I meant is from the day they reported for NS and goes for the BMT training or streamline to unit BMT courses until they completed their specialist course, quite a few will dropped out along the way due to downgrade, sickness, injuries, etc. By the time the unit has trained men for the peace time exercise the number will dwindle.

The Malaysian student asked for it. However I've yet to see an example of how parents really suffered when their son defaulted. Sure there are the harassments to deal with and the stern warnings and here and there, but it seems quite hard to bring parents to court until MINDEF has solid evidence that the parents actions directly influenced their son to default. Im speaking from a position where I know 2 defaulters whose dad still work in singapore, even when they've defaulted for 3 and 5 years.

Look, I do not wish to debate on how the Gahmen take action on them, what I know is if your child defaulted, his name will be in this masterlist circulated with ICA, CMPB and Mindef.
Parents name has far greater consequences. It is up to the Gahmen whether they want to take action or not.
Harbouring a NS defaulter use to be $3K fine , not the up the ante to $10K. Look at Amendment in Parliament of NS issue by Teo Chee Hean 2006 Feb after the piano man debacle
Why do one wants to be living looking over their shoulder all the time baffles me ?


So far, I've yet to see any parents charged in court just because their son defaulted NS.
Look at this site, it does explain clearly: Mindef presses for jail sentence

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Postby Koalabear » Mon, 15 Mar 2010 1:20 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:
What do you mean 20% attrition rate in bmt? I've never seen people default NS when they are already in BMT.
What I meant is from the day they reported for NS and goes for the BMT training or streamline to unit BMT courses until they completed their specialist course, quite a few will dropped out along the way due to downgrade, sickness, injuries, etc. By the time the unit has trained men for the peace time exercise the number will dwindle.

The Malaysian student asked for it. However I've yet to see an example of how parents really suffered when their son defaulted. Sure there are the harassments to deal with and the stern warnings and here and there, but it seems quite hard to bring parents to court until MINDEF has solid evidence that the parents actions directly influenced their son to default. Im speaking from a position where I know 2 defaulters whose dad still work in singapore, even when they've defaulted for 3 and 5 years.

Look, I do not wish to debate on how the Gahmen take action on them, what I know is if your child defaulted, his name will be in this masterlist circulated with ICA, CMPB and Mindef.
Parents name has far greater consequences. It is up to the Gahmen whether they want to take action or not.
Harbouring a NS defaulter use to be $3K fine , not the up the ante to $10K. Look at Amendment in Parliament of NS issue by Teo Chee Hean 2006 Feb after the piano man debacle
Why do one wants to be living looking over their shoulder all the time baffles me ?


So far, I've yet to see any parents charged in court just because their son defaulted NS.
[Look at this site, it does explain clearly: Mindef presses for jail sentence


I can't access it.

I only know this:

We also recognise that some young pre-enlistees may not be sufficiently mature to understand their obligations under the Enlistment Act, or that their parents or guardians may have been instrumental in making decisions affecting such pre-enlistees which resulted in contravention of the Enlistment Act. We will thus be introducing a new offence in the Enlistment Act under which parents and guardians can be made liable for the Exit Permit offences of their children or wards of ages 13 to 16½ so that the penalty can be imposed on their parents or guardians when the circumstances warrant it. The penalty regime for the offence will also be a fine of up to $2,000.

Source: http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_a ... peech.html

well, theres still no jail sentence for parents unless they HARBOURED the defaulter

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 15 Mar 2010 3:27 pm

Koalabear wrote:well, theres still no jail sentence for parents unless they HARBOURED the defaulter


So if the kid comes back to Singapore and spends one night in his parents house, they become criminals as well for harbouring a fugitive. And if the new controls don't work, they are gonna make it harder and harder. So each one that gets caught in the web will deserve what they get.

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Postby Koalabear » Tue, 16 Mar 2010 1:31 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Koalabear wrote:well, theres still no jail sentence for parents unless they HARBOURED the defaulter


So if the kid comes back to Singapore and spends one night in his parents house, they become criminals as well for harbouring a fugitive. And if the new controls don't work, they are gonna make it harder and harder. So each one that gets caught in the web will deserve what they get.


why will a NS defaulter come back at all? He wont even make it to his parents' house from the airport.

My point is loop holes do exist because policy making has its constraints (e.g. my 2 friends). The government still has its limitations to catch defaulters overseas which is why many do not come back (unless they set up a foreign intelligence unit to kidnap these guys back). Since default rate has been so low (assuming there is no rate spike later) I do not see why they will want to jail the parents just because their son defaulted unless MINDEF can prove parents are directly responsible.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:40 am

Koalabear wrote:why will a NS defaulter come back at all? He wont even make it to his parents' house from the airport.


Why did Melvin Tan come back after so many years. Why does anybody want to return to the land of their childhood and relatives? Why am I going home in a couple years time after spending 30 years here? Those ties go beyond the notion of nation and are a lot deeper. A lot come as close as JB and have the rellies come over there, but again, it's not the same is it.

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Postby Koalabear » Tue, 16 Mar 2010 11:29 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Koalabear wrote:why will a NS defaulter come back at all? He wont even make it to his parents' house from the airport.


Why did Melvin Tan come back after so many years. Why does anybody want to return to the land of their childhood and relatives? Why am I going home in a couple years time after spending 30 years here? Those ties go beyond the notion of nation and are a lot deeper. A lot come as close as JB and have the rellies come over there, but again, it's not the same is it.


Particularly after the Melvin Tan incident, I am reasonably sure no one above the age of 40 will risk jail sentence just to see Singapore or his parents. If my son defaulted and had to risk JAIL to see me, I will stay outside Singapore permanently. Cases similar to Melvyn Tan before 2006 never warranted a jail sentence by the court and it was a comfortable risk for him to take. I'll be very surprised if any Melvyn Tan wannabe in the future do not get jail sentence.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 3:32 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Koalabear wrote:why will a NS defaulter come back at all? He wont even make it to his parents' house from the airport.


Why did Melvin Tan come back after so many years. Why does anybody want to return to the land of their childhood and relatives? Why am I going home in a couple years time after spending 30 years here? Those ties go beyond the notion of nation and are a lot deeper. A lot come as close as JB and have the rellies come over there, but again, it's not the same is it.


SMS

I guess home is where it is closer to your heart. Our children will not feel the difference since unlike myself, they are brought up overseas , the parents where we are brought up in a different place and at different times.

Koala Bear, I guess you are Sger or ex-Sger whatever. The point I want to make is there are many things that were done by the Gahmen not reported or shown in the media. You forget one thing, the Gahmen controls the media and other single bit in the country. They will let you know if they want you to know or make a lesson for other would be. I believe you have been going thru the internet looking for other parent offenders that had been criminalised by the system. Sad to say, you will get none unless it is permitted by the Gahmen. I wish I can name afew but I cannot as this is not permited under the privacy act.
The system is already in place, why gamble on something that you are not certain of on the outcome.
Those that fall through the cracks are the very lucky ones. I serve 6 in camp during my reservist time. After that I deferred continously due to my work overseas until I reached 40. All the protocol were in order. When I return home on one of those short break from overseas, I was stopped at ICA border control at the airport. My exit permit and passport where taken away. Two CMPB staff served me there and then with a notice to report to reservist training within 14 days !!
I am a high ranking officer officer in the army and they do not give a damn who you are.
I was told politely served the in-camp and you can reapply your exit permit. Mind you this just a simple case, NOT even Parent Harbouring Defaulters.
Why do you want to keep on looking for loophole or whatever that you are wanting to know when you know the answer is obvious.

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Postby Koalabear » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 3:47 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Koalabear wrote:why will a NS defaulter come back at all? He wont even make it to his parents' house from the airport.


Why did Melvin Tan come back after so many years. Why does anybody want to return to the land of their childhood and relatives? Why am I going home in a couple years time after spending 30 years here? Those ties go beyond the notion of nation and are a lot deeper. A lot come as close as JB and have the rellies come over there, but again, it's not the same is it.


SMS

I guess home is where it is closer to your heart. Our children will not feel the difference since unlike myself, they are brought up overseas , the parents where we are brought up in a different place and at different times.

Koala Bear, I guess you are Sger or ex-Sger whatever. The point I want to make is there are many things that were done by the Gahmen not reported or shown in the media. You forget one thing, the Gahmen controls the media and other single bit in the country. They will let you know if they want you to know or make a lesson for other would be. I believe you have been going thru the internet looking for other parent offenders that had been criminalised by the system. Sad to say, you will get none unless it is permitted by the Gahmen. I wish I can name afew but I cannot as this is not permited under the privacy act.
The system is already in place, why gamble on something that you are not certain of on the outcome.
Those that fall through the cracks are the very lucky ones. I serve 6 in camp during my reservist time. After that I deferred continously due to my work overseas until I reached 40. All the protocol were in order. When I return home on one of those short break from overseas, I was stopped at ICA border control at the airport. My exit permit and passport where taken away. Two CMPB staff served me there and then with a notice to report to reservist training within 14 days !!
I am a high ranking officer officer in the army and they do not give a damn who you are.
I was told politely served the in-camp and you can reapply your exit permit. Mind you this just a simple case, NOT even Parent Harbouring Defaulters.
Why do you want to keep on looking for loophole or whatever that you are wanting to know when you know the answer is obvious.


WTf is this for real? That means I cant even return Singapore for a decent holiday because they will just put me back to camp! I only know I have to inform them when I return to Singapore but didn't know they need manpower to do area cleaning so desperately.

Im not really looking for a loophole. Im just stating out my observation because my friend's dad was not criminalized and still work in Singapore to this date. I was just quite surprised that the govt did not hang him out in the open since they can easily target his CPF and HDB.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 5:13 am

Koalabear wrote:WTf is this for real? That means I cant even return Singapore for a decent holiday because they will just put me back to camp! I only know I have to inform them when I return to Singapore but didn't know they need manpower to do area cleaning so desperately.

How long is the ICT? I remember it was a week or so.


Yup,this is true. I do not gain anything by scaremongering you.
Someone told me in this forum that I need to back my words with facts. DON"T Need TO. IT IS ALL THERE IN THE RESERVIST ACT. UP TO YOU TO BELIEVE.
I really do not know how they know I am returning home for short break. My guess I was nearing to my 40 then, so b4 I would no longer be liable for active , they make sure they get me first b4 I turn 40.
Two RPs went to my house, seven days after I arrived home to serve me again for the correct place of reporting.
I went to Maju camp to report . Guess what, there are whole list of people from a judge to nobody that has been deferring their in camp and is on their "wanted list". My guess about 200 names.This is only on ONE BRIGADE LIST.
My exit permit is on multiple trips and I did not even have to inform my return date as long as less than 30 days, my exit permit is still valid.
The ICT is 40 days to finish two "Owed" in-camp as I am a ranking personnel. As it falls between March April cycle, I did 4 in-camp within 8 months approx. with breaks in between.

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Postby Koalabear » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 11:19 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
Koalabear wrote:WTf is this for real? That means I cant even return Singapore for a decent holiday because they will just put me back to camp! I only know I have to inform them when I return to Singapore but didn't know they need manpower to do area cleaning so desperately.

How long is the ICT? I remember it was a week or so.


Yup,this is true. I do not gain anything by scaremongering you.
Someone told me in this forum that I need to back my words with facts. DON"T Need TO. IT IS ALL THERE IN THE RESERVIST ACT. UP TO YOU TO BELIEVE.
I really do not know how they know I am returning home for short break. My guess I was nearing to my 40 then, so b4 I would no longer be liable for active , they make sure they get me first b4 I turn 40.
Two RPs went to my house, seven days after I arrived home to serve me again for the correct place of reporting.
I went to Maju camp to report . Guess what, there are whole list of people from a judge to nobody that has been deferring their in camp and is on their "wanted list". My guess about 200 names.This is only on ONE BRIGADE LIST.
My exit permit is on multiple trips and I did not even have to inform my return date as long as less than 30 days, my exit permit is still valid.
The ICT is 40 days to finish two "Owed" in-camp as I am a ranking personnel. As it falls between March April cycle, I did 4 in-camp within 8 months approx. with breaks in between.


This sucks. DAMN I CANT EVEN GO BACK in peace now. What if Im only going back for 5 days with return ticket already bought? My exit permit valid up to a year every time I apply because I declared overseas PR status. Surely they cant be that efficient to schedule my ICT if im staying in Singapore for 5 days only!


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