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still is "singaporeans speak singlish"

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Postby Splatted » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:29 pm

crocss22 wrote:
Splatted wrote:
crocss22 wrote:none of my friends speak with a serious case of singlish. it seems that only the old singaporeans above 40yo


Really? Only old Singaporeans?

I take it you've never been to Mcdonalds and sat next to a study group, and never been to the cinema and sat through a movie where everyone in the cinema constantly chatted.


dont cut off my <snip>


My point still stands.

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Postby EADG » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:45 pm

Yep.

Was just taking a break from running around and waving my hands to waste some time on YouTube, where I learned a new word, someone referred to it as "Manglish".

No "S". And lighten up, if you can't take the heat, or feel heat when there isn't any, this may not be your best particular kitchen.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:46 pm

crocss22 wrote:to my singaporean ears, both ris low and that women in your clip VERY CLEARLY do not speak english/singlish at home. singaporeans who do speak singlish, yes singlish not english, at home do not sound like that. it is instantly clear to me both ris and that women do not speak english as their first language.

you cant tell simply because you are a foreigner. like EADGS, you run around waving your hands saying "see! all singaporeans cant speak english!! they all suck at english".

Nah, nobody said that at all.... It's just a local who's now backed up against the wall and flailing at everybody. Most don't even realize they speak singlish because, as said, it's what they were taught in school. A rose by any other colour.......

Or, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and sounds like a duck then the odds are greatly in favour of it being a duck don't you think?


but you don't realise how stupid you are because most of the "these people" like the cab driver EADGS is talking about, these people don't even speak english as their first language but as their second or third language.

It's been estimated that fully 25 to 35% of all taxi drivers here today are retrenched PMET's and yes they think they speak it at a first language level. Most of them actually took it at first language level as well.


a good 50-60% of singaporeans have mandarin/mandarin dialects/malay/tamil as their first language. english is only their second or third language.

So, if the above is true, then the abysmal quality of english (singlish) should not be a surprise and therefore your entire premise is based on a falsehood. Instead of being so defensive, you should be trying to figure out how to correct it.

it is like going to a french canadian and telling him he speaks frenchgrish or going to the chinese and telling them they speak chingrish. it is plain dumb.

Actually the PRC version of singlish is already known as chinglish. The big difference is that they acknowledge it's not their first OR second language, unlike most singlish speakers.

try speaking in mandarin to me and i will laugh at you telling you that you speak shitty mandarin. does that make sense to you?

Does it make sense to you? We didn't take Mandarin at first language level or claim it's our first language or that we speak proper Mandarin. We, those that are lucky enough to have had the fortune to learn it, acknowledge that it is a work in progress and will never say that we are perfect speakers of a foreign language (as opposed to a 2nd language - you do know the difference I presume).


anyway, ris low's first language is mandarin, she admitted she speaks mandarin/hokkien at home in this interview. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmicVxvMe0Y ) her english is pretty bad but it is not all that bad for a second language. and despite what she says in that video, her english is definitely below average for singaporeans as a whole. and it is way below average for english speaking singaporeans. her mandarin sounds perfect to me, definitely native level mandarin.

you want to know how a singaporean who speaks singlish all the time at home sound like? it sounds like the host in the ris low video clip i posted. as a singaporean, i can hear it. she is trying to speak acrolectally for camera but take off the camera, i bet she speaks in her normal mild singlish.

can you speak mandarin or any other language besides english? even at a basic level?

I think you will find that most here do. However, I must admit I'm not one of them. My French is rather rusty as I've not used it since the VN war in the 60's (lot's of the old Viets spoke a singlesh version of French - otherwise what would be known as pidgin french)


as i said i speak with a typical singaporean accent. i have been speaking like this since i was born. why don't you do me a favour and record a clip of how you speak to show everyone what "normal" sounding english is supposed to be?

if you travel around the world, i think you will find that many many people from america to australia who think british accents are "odd" and "very hard on the ears" as well.

You are correct in as far as accents are concerned. But we are not talking about accents but grammar and usage of the language (like 'horning somebody', or 'can I follow you to the store'.)

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Postby Splatted » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 1:20 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:You are correct in as far as accents are concerned. But we are not talking about accents but grammar and usage of the language (like 'horning somebody', or 'can I follow you to the store'.)


There's also the issue of how some words are pronounced.

Some simple words, many Singaporeans get totally wrong.

The word "flour" is one example.

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Postby crocss22 » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 1:26 pm

It is rather easy to get all Singaporeans to speak perfect English. The sg govt just has to make English the only official language in Singapore. Viola, within one generation, no more Singlish.

But the sg govt wants Singaporeans to be billingual or trillingual. They want Singaporeans to thrive in China, India and all English speaking countries of the world.

The national song and military commands are in Malay. You speak Mandarin/English at home. You are educated in English and you speak English at work.

You can't be equally effective in all two/three languages. There has to be a first language and second language. It is messed up. Look at my family.

My mother speaks Mandarin as her first language, English as her second and Malay as her third. But she can't read or write in Chinese. She can only read and write in English and Malay.

My father speaks English. He can't read or write or speak any other language including Chinese.

I speak English and Mandarin. I can only read and write in English. I can no longer read and write much in Chinese because it has gone rusty.

:???:

Btw EADG I am not heated all all, I don't know what gave you that impression.
Last edited by crocss22 on Mon, 01 Mar 2010 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby QRM » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 1:27 pm

crocss22 wrote:
a good 50-60% of singaporeans have mandarin/mandarin dialects/malay/tamil as their first language. english is only their second or third language.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN SAYING DESPITE BEING BORN AND BRED IN SINGAPORE A BIG CHUNK OF THE POPULATION DO NOT SPEAK GOOD ENGLISH. CHRIS LOW IS NOT A FOREIGNER WORKING HERE I THOUGHT SHE IS A TRUE BLUE BLOOD SINGAPOREAN AND STILL CANT SPEAK ENGLISH

it is like going to a french canadian and telling him he speaks frenchgrish or going to the chinese and telling them they speak chingrish. it is plain dumb.

IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME THERE ARE WHOLE WEBS SITE SET ASIDE TO SEE THE BUTCHERED CHINGLISH AND THE OTHER FUNNY ONE IS JAPLISH YOU SEE WRITTEN ON ALOT OF PRODUCT. YOU ARE MISSING THE POINT THE CHINESE AND JAPANESE DO NOT GO AROUND SAYING THE VAST MAJORITY OF THEIR COUNTRY FOLKS SPEAKS ENGLISH




Try speaking in mandarin to me and i will laugh at you telling you that you speak shitty mandarin. does that make sense to you?
IF I SAID I CAME FROM A PLACE IN WHICH MANDARIN IS THE PREDOMINATE LANGUAGE IN BOTH THE LEGAL AND EDUCATION SYSTEM THEN YOU WOULD BE VERY MUCH ENTITLED TO LAUGH AND MOCK ME



can you speak mandarin or any other language besides english? even at a basic level?

YES JAPANESE, FRENCH (BETTER AT WRITTEN HAVING STUDIED IT FOR 9 YEARS) AND IF WE ARE TALKING VERY VERY BASIC LEVEL THEN THERE IS CANTONESE, SPANISH, LATIN, AND BAHASA, AN OLD GIRL FRIEND TRIED TO TEACH ME ESPERANTO WHICH IF YOU ASK ME WAS A GOOD IDEA IN THEORY BUT A USELESS LANGUAGE. LANGUAGES WAS NEVER MY STRONG POINT


as i said i speak with a typical singaporean accent. i have been speaking like this since i was born. why don't you do me a favour and record a clip of how you speak to show everyone what "normal" sounding english is supposed to be?

JUST LOG ONTO ANY ENGLISH NEWS WEBSITE CNN, BBC ETC AND YOU CAN HEAR WHAT I WOULD CALL A GOOD STANDARD OF MODERN ENGLISH.

if you travel around the world, i think you will find many people from america to australia who think british accents are "odd" and "very hard on the ears" as well.
I AGREE MUCH THAT THIS MUST PAIN YOU, SINGAPORE DOES NOT GET THE NUMBER ONE SLOT FOR ODD ENGLISH ACCENTS I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NIGERIANS AND HARD CORE SCOTS ARE PRETTY HIGH UP THE LIST.

YOU SEEM TO BE TAKING THIS ALL WRONG AND SEE IT AS SOME SORT OF PERSONAL ATTACK. PEOPLE ARE JUST POINTING OUT THE ENGLISH IN SINGAPORE HAS BEEN BUTCHERED IN SUCH A WAY IT IS DIFFICULT ON THE EAR, ITS NOT JUST THE EX-PATS BUT YOUR GOVT AGREES WITH THAT VIEW.

IF A KID RETURNED HOME WITH A STRONG, SAY MEXICAN ACCENT HE TOO WOULD BE A TARGET FOR SWIRLYS AT SCHOOL ITS NOT JUST SINGAPOREANS HAVE BEEN SINGLED OUT.

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Postby Plavt » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 3:34 pm

crocss22 wrote:It is rather easy to get all Singaporeans to speak perfect English. The sg govt just has to make English the only official language in Singapore. Viola, within one generation, no more Singlish.



Image ImageImage

Maybe should have a good look at some of my posts in the Airline thread which like many other things I post on forums soon degenerate into a verbal spat. The government make English the only official language?

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Postby ksl » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 4:23 pm

crocss22, I can sympathise with your quest, though the reality is that there are very very few native English speakers on this little red dot. Therefore one cannot presume that English is the first language even if the government wants it to be, it will taken several generations more.

All Singaporeans are a mixed bunch like myself. I am British born and left the UK to reside in Denmark for 23 years, this time away from the home Country does have a profound effect on mother tongue, and problems also arise with grammar and spelling because of the loan words and pronunciation.

Singlish however is only understandable to those using it, it's so badly composed grammatically and phonetically, that very few native English speakers, would be able to make anything of it.

Having a 9 year old daughter, that has attended kindergarten in Singapore and is now in primary 4 gives me concern over her communication abilities in the English language, even with extra tuition and the fact I don't allow Singlish spoken in my home, it is still very challenging to understand my own daughter at times and I have to make her write down what she is trying to say, it bugs me, that she is not able to converse correctly or does it on purpose to wind me up which is more likely because her exams are straight A's, though its no thanks to the school, and more to do with persistent parental intervention to correct her.

Also my brother in law who is Singaporean over 50 and staunchly patriotic , speaks good English because he had been overseas for 5 years in the UK , however his Children have the same problem as my own daughter, which is the environment and the amount of Singlish they are exposed too daily by Children and teachers.

Correct pronunciation is vital for understanding and when "Three" is pronounced "tree" then it's easy to hear the mistakes, which are common to all Chinese speaking people and others who are not corrected.

My daughter tells me, that pronunciation skills are not taken seriously in English class P4.

Statistics are just that, though in all honesty all parents will speak to their Children in their mother tongue, which is not English in Singapore and that my dear friend is the problem in Singapore, it will take a few generations yet, before the majority of Singaporeans are speaking good English.

Your father who speaks only English? and no other language surprises me....are you saying your father is English?

Your mother would speak Mandarin too you, if its her mother tongue, it would be unnatural for her to do otherwise and not easy.

I think of it has a new land, that is going through big changes, not only language, but etiquette in public places too is very important, with a Country that is so mixed and wants to have English has its main language,
Though many children are privileged, many are not, and have to work harder to escape the working class environment, where life is more difficult in general.

Singapore wants to be at the top of its game...the government must look at its own serious faults on the world stage, and start to act. You mention products in chinglish and japlish, though in all honesty its worse than you realise and your Country does nothing to protect the consumer.....The labeling laws state quite clearly the requirements at AVA, but no one enforces the law here until a complaint is made.

So again the only people to suffer are those that are ignorant of the facts, mostly consumers.

The end of the day, you should be looking at the split population here, and ask yourself, if there is 75% Chinese population, it only makes sense that they would converse in their mother tongue to their offspring, logically thinking that is. So English would be the second language.

Has a Country that boasts a GDP on par with Denmark, it cannot boast the same skill sets or experience from DIY to Individual held degrees, etiquette or working environment, there is shabbiness and quality and Singapore rather takes shabbiness, to boost profits.

Language wise, you shouldn't take it too personal, just keep improving and let the masses find their own way..

Singlish is not unlike a dialect from the poorly educated and crime ridden Moss Side in Manchester back in the 60's, possibly imported from Squaddies that were based in Singapore, a mixture of lah's ah's charwalla, egg banjo, and god knows what.

Language is heavily influenced by environmental and etiquette conditions and the working class are probably the majority in Singapore too, so the more classy you are, the more you would be expected to conform to setting standards.

I have met a retired Indian here in Singapore that does actually speak the queens English rather beautifully, so its all about effort I guess.

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Postby crocss22 » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 6:49 pm

My Mandarin is not exactly Beijing ed accent as well. (no "er" accent) But most Mainlanders would have no problem believing I am from China and that I am a native Mandarin speaker. They tend to think I am from Guangzhou province or Taiwan, where their accents are quite similar to the Singaporean one.

My father is not English. He is Chinese Singaporean who happens to speak only English. And he is not exactly rare, many Singaporeans are only fluent in English. I think Lee Kuan Yew is like that as well.

Contrary to what you think... a lot of parents actually put in extra effort to speak to their kids in English/Singlish at home because they know their kids would compete in English when they grow up. That is how pidgin English propagates...

The concept of "mother tongue" has been warped by Singapore. In Singapore schools, it is actually used by the MOE to describe the second language not the first.

And Singapore's standard of living and GDP is far behind Denmark. Denmark is in another league altogether.

Oh no, you did not pronounce the "h" in three! how dare you butcher the English language! :???:
Last edited by crocss22 on Mon, 01 Mar 2010 4:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 7:20 pm

crocss22 wrote:My Mandarin is not exactly Beijing ed accent as well. (no "er" accent) But most Mainlanders would have no problem believing I am from China and that I am a native Mandarin speaker. They tend to think I am from Guangzhou province or Taiwan, where their accents are quite similar to the Singaporean one.

Then you are one of very few. Most mainlanders & Taiwanese make fun of the Singapore Mandarin as it, like it's Singlish, has been bastardized. You are only fooling your self with that comment. For that matter the programme you decided to reply to was because the Taiwanese people on the show were making fun of Singaporeans right? So, once again, you've shot yourself in the foot.

My father is not English. He is Chinese Singaporean who happens to speak only English. And he is not exactly rare, many Singaporeans are only fluent in English. I think Lee Kuan Yew is like that as well.

Contrary to what you think... a lot of parents actually put in extra effort to speak to their kids in English/Singlish at home because they know their kids would compete in English when they grow up. That is how pidgin English propagates...

The concept of "mother tongue" has been warped by Singapore. In Singapore schools, it is actually used by the MOE to describe the second language not the first.

That is incorrect. It is used to describe the mother tongue, nothing more. That why, generally speaking, if you take your Mother Tongue at 1st language level you have a choice of your 2nd language. I was the first to put that to the test when my daughter started school way back in '88. They tried to make my daughter take tamil as her 1st language. I beat them with their own laws. My daughter was taking English as her 1st language as well as it being her mother tongue as well. The mother tongue is determined by the father's race (as you well know). Therefore, as I am an American, her mother tongue was English. Therefore I opted for Mandarin for her 2nd language even though they said she should be taking Tamil. I said no. Your rules state if the child take mother tongue at 1st language level then said child has their choice of 2nd language. I won. As my daughter set the precedence my son had no problems.

And Singapore's standard of living and GDP is far behind Denmark. Denmark is in another league altogether.

Oh no, you did not pronounce the "h" in three! how dare you butcher the English language! :???:

Yeah, and the Yanks are famous for dropping the "H" from herbs & spices. But that is dialectic differences which we have already excused. Why you keep getting mixed up with pronunciation versus grammer I'm not too sure. You did say your English was very good, right? So you do know the difference between "can I send you home?" and "can I take you home/" right? The first, you slap a couple of stamps on his forehead and shove him in the nearest postbox. The second you offer him a ride home on your car. Has nothing to do with pronunciation of work like Alaskar (typical for Alaska here) or 'lurve' for love, or tree for three. I could go on all day long, but pronunciation is one thing. grammar is another. "on the light"?

I'm surprised you haven't shot back yet with the normal "excuse" used here. It's pragmatic to use fewer words. We are super efficient, conveying the same message in less words/time.


Efficient? Or just lazy. You say most know better so I guess it's just laziness.

NB: Tamil speaking Indians from India laugh at the bastardized Tamil spoken here as well. I guess when it comes to languages, Singapore blew it big time, instead of mastering one, they ended up with sub-normal for all. :wink:

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Postby crocss22 » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 8:09 pm

I hope you enjoy paying high taxes worldwide because America is bankrupt. Scratch that, it is past bankrupt. It is 15 trillion in debt. It will be fun watching how Americans pay their 15 trillion debt over the next few decades without delcaring bankruptcy. Iran next? Yabadabadooooo!!!
Last edited by crocss22 on Mon, 01 Mar 2010 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Plavt » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 8:55 pm

crocss22 wrote:I hope you enjoy paying high taxes worldwide because America is bankrupt. Scratch that, it is past bankrupt. It is 15 trillion in debt. It will be fun watching how Americans pay their 15 trillion debt over the next few decades without delcaring bankruptcy. Iran next? Yabadabadooooo!!!


This has nothing to do with the issue first raised and simply shows your desperation as it would appear you can neither comprehend nor accept what is being said most notably by ksl and sms.

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Postby Splatted » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 10:25 pm

crocss22 wrote:What a fool. You seem to dislike Singapore, why not could ship yourself back to your farm because that is where you grew up. I like farm workers. They put meat on our table.


translation:

clip-clop clip-clop

Who's that clattering across my bridge?

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Postby utopia » Sun, 28 Feb 2010 12:35 pm

You know crocs, the problem about your position on this thread is the premise : you are attempting to 'defend' the 'average level' of English used/spoken by Singaporeans over what some people would like to assume the English have with the Queens English.

Its a lost cause.

The fact is, the majority of (Chinese) Singaporeans slip into speaking English that is directly translated from their native Chinese thought processes. A simple example : " I WIN YOU" is perfectly reasonable when translated back to Chinese.
+ Skipping th's. pronouncing r's as l's add to grating on an 'native' English speakers ears.
+ Singapore accent and the penchant to have the hanging inflection at the end seems to leave sentences hanging.
+ the familiarity with and hence the slipping in the more common Malay and Hokkien words into the mix and terminating with the famous 'lah' pretty much rounds up the state of 'average' Singaporean English.
Im certain there are whole blogs and websites dedicated to the above if you were so inclined to research.

Naturally youve run up against the other posters have taken up the defense of the Queens English - effectively pwning you horribly in this 'discussion'.

When in Rome ... one would learn pretty quickly to fix their th's , ls', r's, drop the lahs and learn the pronunciation of the many, many words that the English language committed indirections with when it grew up (rendezvous, buffet, minute etc ).
After all, there are few things worse then losing an argument with another fool just because one cannot deliver ones points across in the language of their choice eloquently enough.

Back to the OP, Im assuming the issue is with 'psychological problem'. As with the majority of Westernised society, any event can be used to justify 'psychological problems' so long as you pay a psychiatrist and a lawyer enough. So Im afraid thats another lost argument there.

Attempting to point out the respective weaknesses of the other English speaking countries really only serves to have more replies in BIG RED CAPS ,however, if that is your intention, please carry on.

Meantime ; http://www.killtheapostrophe.com/

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Postby QRM » Sun, 28 Feb 2010 1:02 pm

Actually I owe Crocs an apology the big red caps was not intended as "shouting" just to make it easier to highlight the difference between the texts. Kudos to Crocs for being one of the few Singaporeans to stand up and say the govt has got it all wrong. He is trying to say The speak good English campaign is a white elephant.

Very Funny Splatted's "Clip clop"


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