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utopia
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Postby utopia » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:03 am

I am agreed what you have mention.
well is simple in here.

if people are not happy , they just keep inside their heart..

LOL that why you can see singaporean looks stress all times.

they cannot voice out is due to "Strict" laws ISD ya blah blah .so best is zip it up.talk among themself if cannot tolerant it.


The advise I occasionally give Singaporeans, (and Taxi drivers), if you find it unbearable to such a massive degree, it's probably prudent to make a conscience effort to look for another country that will accept you.
Similarly, I've had that advice given to me myself, in other countries, in similar sort of discussions.

I suspect, in the end of the day,
a) the nett pluses of being in Singapore far out-weigh the nett negatives,
b) and/or some people do not have the opportunity or choices,
c) and/or are in the position of the story of the monkey with the hand in the bottle.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:17 am

utopia wrote:
What to do?

Exactly. Try this, in the spirit of being constructive instead of taking the oh-so-easy road of bashing existing efforts, make some positive suggestions.
Perhaps, with your experience/knowledge, which other country has a social engineering model, or policies that might work, given the social norms of the racial makeup in Singapore?
Who knows? -someone- working with the Singapore government might chance across it and actually take note of it.


Or, you can try what I do. I am a very active member of our GRO under the People's Association (PA). I like those of us who are member, are trying to make communities of our estates. It's a frustrating, ongoing progress that is measured in millimeters but we do what we can. It's because of this activity I have my hands a little closer on the pulse of what is happening in the Heartlands. Physically visiting homes and enjoining the people to get out and attend the myriad function that we selflessly organize, promote and donate our time to is what will, hopefully, change this mindset.

You are welcome to think what you want and explain away the facts with the "mind your own business" ploy but the reality is much more grim than that.

JP - It would appear that finally the gov't is relenting a wee bit on the Race ploy on NRICs. Mine was changed about a decade ago from "Others" to "Caucasian" and recently (this month) the policy was changed for newborns and kids up to the age of 15 to change their race from the "father's" race to a hyphenated race with the predominant one in the lead if desired (mother tongue purposes).

And yeah, the HDB policy, as you well know, has always been one of my big frustrations here! Government sanctioned racism (whether of ultimate good or not is immaterial).

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Postby nakatago » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:23 am

jpatokal wrote:
utopia wrote:
And that is why, in the majority of HDB heartland estates, some neighbours have lived next door to another family for a decade and have never spoken to them.

That is by choice / personality and not though the lack of effort from the Government in integration.

Did you ever pause to think about why the Government is keen on racial quotas in HDBs? Would it, say, be handy to ensure that the Chinese have a solid voting majority in every single electoral district in Singapore?


Now, there's a new angle I haven't realized before.

jpatokal wrote:
Contrast, for a moment, with another country which DOESN'T have any these policies, or the laws to back it up, or their equivalent.

I'm not aware of any other country where race is tracked quite as obsessively as it is in Singapore: I'm asked for the color of my skin when I sign up for cable TV, apply for a gym membership or go to the dentist. :o No hyphenated-Singaporeans either: you're either Chinese, Malay, Indian or Other, period.


To be fair, they now allow "dual-races" to be registered for children today. But still, if one's race does not matter why bother asking for it, right?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:28 am

JP, re the voter demographics......

Ever wonder....... in the over a quarter of a century that I've been here the racial percentages of the population have never changed substantially? Interesting if you consider that Malay's have the highest Fertility Rate of the 4 "races" that are counted here and the Chinese have the lowest and totally it's only around 1.23 per family. That means, what we all know anyway, that they are using immigration to maintain the demographics in order to ensure the overwhelming majority. :-|

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Postby SunWuKong » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:32 am

nakatago wrote:isn't racism partly and indirectly the reason why singapore got expelled out of the malaya federation?
:???:


The ostensible reason. The real reason seems to have been the Malayan Federation's fear that the Singaporean port's economic supremacy would eventually shift the power base of the new Federation from KL to Singapore.
The nature of Monkey was ... irrepressible!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 10:48 am

SunWuKong wrote:
nakatago wrote:isn't racism partly and indirectly the reason why singapore got expelled out of the malaya federation?
:???:


The ostensible reason. The real reason seems to have been the Malayan Federation's fear that the Singaporean port's economic supremacy would eventually shift the power base of the new Federation from KL to Singapore.


Same thing, different words. The Chinese controlled the port. Call a spade a spade. :-|

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Postby SunWuKong » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 1:17 pm

You are right. Ultimately ethnic malay xenophobia expelled Singapore from the Federation of Malaya.

Very interesting. Were LKY' tears for the lost opportunity to rule a much larger pond? I hadn't actually considered it before.
The nature of Monkey was ... irrepressible!

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Postby utopia » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 1:24 pm

Did you ever pause to think about why the Government is keen on racial quotas in HDBs? Would it, say, be handy to ensure that the Chinese have a solid voting majority in every single electoral district in Singapore?


I'm interested to know why you think this is relevant ? is Singapore not overwhelming Chinese anyway with or without quota ?
With the size of GRC electoral boundaries, do you really think the presence of racial quotas would make a difference in voting patterns ?


Could you imagine the uproar that would ensure if in the US or Europe somewhere a black family was not allowed to buy an public housing apartment because there are too many of your kind living there already? This happens everyday in Singapore, and with the explicit sanction of the law!


Are you implying that because politically-correct USA / Europe doesn't have it, therefore it MUST be completely wrong for Singapore to have it ?

Is it really such a dramatic, devastating impact that because the country HAS social engineering and (some) families were denied from buying HDB flats (but not private housing) due to the racial allocations based on what already exists in that suburb / electorate ?

What is a better solution?

To have ethnicity silos exist ? Where people gape at seeing a slantly-eyed-yellow skinned Chinese because they lived the majority of their lives without seeing one? Or a dark skinned Malay in their sarong? Or all the shops in a suburb have the Halal sign on it, or Chinese or Indian scripts. Where the playgrounds will only have children of one skin color playing together because all the Chinese and/or Malays have overwhelming purchased their housing in that area.

utopia
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Postby utopia » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 1:37 pm

Or, you can try what I do. I am a very active member of our GRO

I sincerely applaud you for the efforts to assist in making the change.

You are welcome to think what you want and explain away the facts with the "mind your own business" ploy but the reality is much more grim than that.


It wasn't an explain away ploy, it was a suggestion. But, you, like I, are welcome to think what you want.

And yeah, the HDB policy, as you well know, has always been one of my big frustrations here! Government sanctioned racism (whether of ultimate good or not is immaterial).

Let's agree to disagree.

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Postby SGBoyxxx » Thu, 25 Feb 2010 3:18 pm

nakatago wrote:isn't racism partly and indirectly the reason why singapore got expelled out of the malaya federation?
:???:


:wink: In fact I am happy singapore is seperate from malaya

by the way talking about bias

in malaysia is woest..

especially for the non malay communities.

I have non malay malaysian frds mention the systems ..the benefits more cater to the malays.

next last time they want to offical declare malaysia is Muslim country
but get strong oppose from the non malays communities .

at least here in singapore , fair treatment is given to all races .

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Postby jpatokal » Fri, 26 Feb 2010 9:42 am

utopia wrote:I'm interested to know why you think this is relevant ? is Singapore not overwhelming Chinese anyway with or without quota ? With the size of GRC electoral boundaries, do you really think the presence of racial quotas would make a difference in voting patterns ?


Of course: it makes it impossible to create a viable Malaysian-style opposition coalition that caters to the interests of minorities, since -- even when combined -- the minorities can never outweigh the majority.

Now, I'm not a huge fan of the current Malaysian political setup, but at least their system ensures that the minorities get some voice. In Singapore, the tokens in the GLCs are neutered: everybody belongs to the PAP, so they can either vote with the party or get kicked out of Parliament.

Is it really such a dramatic, devastating impact that because the country HAS social engineering and (some) families were denied from buying HDB flats (but not private housing) due to the racial allocations based on what already exists in that suburb / electorate ?

What is a better solution?

Ah, now that's a good question. :cool: While I don't entirely agree with the means, and while I don't believe in the party line that you are spouting about why they're doing it, I do agree that the net effect of forced mingling is probably better than the alternative of race ghettos.

The bigger question, though, is would race ghettos have developed on their own? In countries with this problem (France, Australia etc), the inhabitants of the ghettos are invariably poor migrants who have no choice but to move to the cheapest, least desirable housing. Add in decentralized systems of government that ensure that the poorest areas also have the smallest budgets to fix their problems, and you get a bit of a death spiral.

In Singapore, the wealth distribution between the races, while not entirely flat, is not dramatically skewed, and since governance is centralized, there are no dramatic differences in the upkeep or maintenance of various HDB areas. (Unless you happen to live in an Opposition ward, of course...) And while there are poor immigrants in Singapore, they are not allowed to purchase HDBs anyway until they are well-off enough to acquire PR/citizenship.
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

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Postby jpatokal » Fri, 26 Feb 2010 9:46 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:JP - It would appear that finally the gov't is relenting a wee bit on the Race ploy on NRICs. Mine was changed about a decade ago from "Others" to "Caucasian" and recently (this month) the policy was changed for newborns and kids up to the age of 15 to change their race from the "father's" race to a hyphenated race with the predominant one in the lead if desired (mother tongue purposes).

Yeah, but this is a bit of a red herring -- if you read the small print, it states that for all effects and purposes, it's the first half that continues to matter for things like HDB quotas, military assignments etc, and the second half is there just to give you warm fuzzies. It's a symbolic step in the right direction, as at least they're acknowledging that it's not all black and white, but with little practical impact.
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

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Postby SunWuKong » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 8:39 am

In Singapore the two most important languages are English and Mandarin, in that order. However because of their race, Malays are excluded from learning Mandarin in school.

Flash forward to working age and try to get a job. It is stunning just how many adverts have a Mandarin speaking requirement. Of course, even a Mandarin speaking Malay hasn't got a raspberry's chance in a juicer of getting the job; but that's the point.

It amounts to wide scale exclusion based on race.
The nature of Monkey was ... irrepressible!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 9:57 am

SunWuKong wrote:
It amounts to wide scale exclusion based on race.


When I first came here a quarter of a century ago the papers openly advertised for Chinese only. It wasn't until the mid-90's that enough noise was made that the main bird cage liner here started insisting on not using race. Therefore, they started using language as a means of racial profiling for jobs. This was taken to task in the past 10 years or so and the answer was that they "needed" Chinese speakers because they either dealt with PRC/Taiwan or their primary customers were Chinese speaking. (contrary to what crocss22 said though :P )

The problem with this is that the Government here (which is governed by which race? :roll: ) will not enact laws with teeth, instead, preferring to say "best practice should be based on job ability". Without teeth, the employers just do as they damned well please.

However, there is one interesting facet that breaks the mold. If you are Caucasian (regardless of your home country) and you speak Mandarin, you are already one step higher than a Chinese speaker who's Chinese - more face having a whitey working for your company I guess. :o

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Postby nakatago » Sat, 27 Feb 2010 12:12 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:However, there is one interesting facet that breaks the mold. If you are Caucasian (regardless of your home country) and you speak Mandarin, you are already one step higher than a Chinese speaker who's Chinese - more face having a whitey working for your company I guess. :o


"Oh, I get it now. It's because I'm not white, isn't it?!?!? C'mon; admit it!!!"

:P


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