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Dating a Muslim girlfriend

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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Wed, 16 Nov 2011 5:47 pm

zilong22 wrote:Guess my father-in-law is more lenient because my mother-in-law is also a non-muslim when they got married. :P



Similar to me, and yes I think it did make things a lot easier for us!

I'm glad that you have things re: the ceremony all clarified...

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Postby ndee25 » Sun, 27 Nov 2011 1:26 pm

zilong22 wrote:Thanks again Mad for clarifying on the baby issue. :D

Haha, JR, I just got that part on the marriage ritual clarified. It will be a short vow exchange ritual between my gf and I, and for my father-in-law to hand over his daughter to me. Shouldnt take more than 15mins. Only my family and my gf's family need to be present. The reason why I will become a muslim for the 15mins is because some sentences in the vows talks about Allah. Good thing is that I will not have to wear muslim clothes or go thru the muslim conversion course to do this. No changing of name required too.

Guess my father-in-law is more lenient because my mother-in-law is also a non-muslim when they got married. :P


Because back in the day (before 1974), the marriage law in Indonesia has not stated that all marriages in Indonesia should be according to the religions of the people in the Indonesia.

I'm an Indonesian muslim, dating a Vietnamese American (catholic) and I've been explaining this to him. Muslims are not allowed to marry other muslims and for traditional muslim families in Indonesia, they usually ask non muslims who about to marry their kids to convert. So the marriage can be done with Indonesian muslim procession (only the ceremony) in front of an official from the local muslim court.

No you will not have to change your name, the conversion to Islam does not have to be registered in your passport or ID or whatever (only in marriage book that will be given to you for your possession only). Therefore, the practices where people convert for the sake of getting married only are normal here. After you get married, unless you live with the parents of your muslim bride/groom, they will not watch you actually doing the practices or whatever. Bonus points if you live abroad.

If the family is open minded enough to let you keep your religion to marry their son/daughter, you can get married outside of Indonesia and just register it in the local civil court.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 29 Nov 2011 5:37 am

ndee25 wrote:Because back in the day (before 1974), the marriage law in Indonesia has not stated that all marriages in Indonesia should be according to the religions of the people in the Indonesia.

I'm an Indonesian muslim, dating a Vietnamese American (catholic) and I've been explaining this to him. Muslims are not allowed to marry other muslims and for traditional muslim families in Indonesia, they usually ask non muslims who about to marry their kids to convert. So the marriage can be done with Indonesian muslim procession (only the ceremony) in front of an official from the local muslim court.

No you will not have to change your name, the conversion to Islam does not have to be registered in your passport or ID or whatever (only in marriage book that will be given to you for your possession only). Therefore, the practices where people convert for the sake of getting married only are normal here. After you get married, unless you live with the parents of your muslim bride/groom, they will not watch you actually doing the practices or whatever. Bonus points if you live abroad.

If the family is open minded enough to let you keep your religion to marry their son/daughter, you can get married outside of Indonesia and just register it in the local civil court.


I think you really need to read this. I am no expert but

http://goatmilkblog.com/2010/08/24/musl ... k-debates/

or you can ask at islamic.net or sheikh albani.co.uk
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 29 Nov 2011 5:50 am

Mad Scientist wrote:I think you really need to read this. I am no expert but

http://goatmilkblog.com/2010/08/24/musl ... k-debates/


Hmmm ... I understood that they could.

I.e. I understood that it was only male non-muslims that had to convert to marry a muslim. Whereas male muslims can marry who ever they like.

[handy that eh?]

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Postby k1w1 » Fri, 02 Dec 2011 2:52 pm

JR8 wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:I think you really need to read this. I am no expert but

http://goatmilkblog.com/2010/08/24/musl ... k-debates/


Hmmm ... I understood that they could.

I.e. I understood that it was only male non-muslims that had to convert to marry a muslim. Whereas male muslims can marry who ever they like.

[handy that eh?]


Technically, they can marry "righteous women of the book" or something to that effect. So good Christians and Jews may also apply.

Of course, religion is seen to be passed along with the father so any children will automatically be Muslim. Therefore even if a woman is allowed to keep her religion, her kids can't be part of her faith.

Also handy.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 02 Dec 2011 5:54 pm

k1w1 wrote:
JR8 wrote:
Mad Scientist wrote:I think you really need to read this. I am no expert but

http://goatmilkblog.com/2010/08/24/musl ... k-debates/


Hmmm ... I understood that they could.

I.e. I understood that it was only male non-muslims that had to convert to marry a muslim. Whereas male muslims can marry who ever they like.

[handy that eh?]


Technically, they can marry "righteous women of the book" or something to that effect. So good Christians and Jews may also apply.

Yep, that sounds like what I've heard before.


Of course, religion is seen to be passed along with the father

...in Islam...

so any children will automatically be Muslim. Therefore even if a woman is allowed to keep her religion, her kids can't be part of her faith.

Also handy.

In Judaism religion follows the female bloodline (for example why Orlando Bloom is not Jewish!). So then, let battle commence! :)



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Postby Barri » Sun, 01 Jan 2012 8:08 am

For me it helps to see religion apart from the organisation (who wrote the books) behind it.

I mean do you believe in God/Brahma/Allah or in the words of an organisation/multinational?

Can believers accept that you are willing to learn about god yet refuse to be part of the organisation behind it?
Can believers make the distinction between the monetary political policy of the company behind the religion and the love and the mysterious working of God?

Curious.

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Postby JR8 » Sun, 01 Jan 2012 8:51 am

Barri wrote:For me it helps to see religion apart from the organisation (who wrote the books) behind it.

Good questions! For me it doesn't 'help' as such, but is a case of considering religion as a kind of parallel society in which I can browse, consider, and take or leave as I like.

One might suggest that I am liberated in having that choice; but I would counter that on the contrary it is that I am simply not enslaved.


I mean do you believe in God/Brahma/Allah or in the words of an organisation/multinational?

I think here you conflate too many issues (i.e. religion with capitalism) to make a rational answer possible.

Can believers accept that you are willing to learn about god yet refuse to be part of the organisation behind it?

That depends on their tolerance. My own thinking is that people who are secure in the value and sincerity of their own beliefs allow discussion, dispute, and a tapestry of levels of involvement and belief. It is religions that demand one set of prescribed ideas, as somehow all or nothing, that trouble me.


Can believers make the distinction between the monetary political policy of the company behind the religion and the love and the mysterious working of God? Curious.

Hahaha! I suspect many can't, because they are 'ordered' not to question. But why do you think the self-appointed religious guardians of the world are the richest organisations?*


* COE, biggest land-owner in the UK (more than even the Crown!), the Vatican mafia as examples.


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Postby zzm9980 » Tue, 03 Jan 2012 10:06 am

I just want to say as a recent arrival to Singapore (from the US), this thread has been very enlightening. Color me (previously) ignorant, but I was always under the assumption that only "backward" Islamic countries like Pakistan, KSA, and Yemen had actual real enforceable laws like this.

As a free-thinker/agnostic (atheists are too radical for me :P), this really presents an interesting internal dilemma for myself; It puts my own personal 'extremely tolerant of whatever religion you want to practice' views into question.

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Postby Barri » Tue, 03 Jan 2012 12:28 pm

I mean do you believe in God/Brahma/Allah or in the words of an organisation/multinational?

I think here you conflate too many issues (i.e. religion with capitalism) to make a rational answer possible.

No I do not: the priest/monks/rabbi etc belong to organizations all say to be the defender of the words of god. Most of these organizations are indeed rich, so rich that you could question which god they follow. A multinational cause those organisation cross country borders and apply the same company policy everywhere regardless of local cultures.

Can believers accept that you are willing to learn about god yet refuse to be part of the organisation behind it?

That depends on their tolerance. My own thinking is that people who are secure in the value and sincerity of their own beliefs allow discussion, dispute, and a tapestry of levels of involvement and belief. It is religions that demand one set of prescribed ideas, as somehow all or nothing, that trouble me.

All religious organisations prescribe a certain behavior from their members, one may seem more tolerant then the other but is in most cases debet to lost power and or practical experience.


Can believers make the distinction between the monetary political policy of the company behind the religion and the love and the mysterious working of God? Curious.

Hahaha! I suspect many can't, because they are 'ordered' not to question. But why do you think the self-appointed religious guardians of the world are the richest organisations?*


* COE, biggest land-owner in the UK (more than even the Crown!), the Vatican mafia as examples.

Yup I know: I myself was raised a catholic but I ain't stepping in no church since I know I am not gonna find god in there.

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Postby bytruffle » Mon, 23 Jan 2012 1:59 am

Hi to all and the creator of this thread. I am wondering if you are still with your Malay Muslim partner and if so, how are you tiptoeing around this whole conversion issue? Maybe we should be friends, all 4 of us, just a thought :)

Thankful for this thread to be honest. I am a Malay Muslim women recently proposed by my British partner when we went over to the UK for the Christmas celebration with his family (he is a PR in SG) . Happy, ecstatic and loved up. He is simply one of the greatest joys in life & I cannot ask for more.

Now, come the complicated part. I am a Muslim...yes, you predicted it, conversion issues. My fiancee will not convert to Islam and I whole-heartedly do not force him to do so. As a matter of fact, I've weighed this matter when we first started going out. Why should I force him to do things that he does not want to do (with the exception of washing dishes!) which may end up in greater complication in the future should he convert and hates it? it's a lie and goes against every grain of beliefs he holds truely to.

Perhaps a little backgrounder on me: I am not staunch but I was sent to Madrasah (Sunday school equivalent) when I was younger. I enjoy the occasional alcohol, I eat food which is not certified halal, I embrace homosexuality, etc ...everything that is seen as Haram in Islam. I do not eat pork however, due to hygiene reasons, but I do respect many forms of Islam teachings; I'll duly fast in Ramadhan to experience the hunger that the poor and starved feels, I'll be proper during Muslim proceedings, I try to pray but not every day or 5 times a day, I do whisper verses from the Koran for example "Alhamdulilah"(praise be to God) when good things happen... You get the idea. I pick and choose the ideologies in Islam that I believe in. I don't entirely agree with whole of Islam teachings but I respect and believe that Allah is real and that Muhammad is his lover (pls do not disrespect this). You get the picture, right? However, this is not known to my parents. So that's me.

However, if you have read this thread or you're a Muslim yourself, etc, you'll know what's expected. He has to convert else the women gets endless shit and .........

The issue: Parents. I simply have no idea how to put it across to them. That I accept my fiancee to not be a Muslim, that we will have a civil marriage (endorsing documents in ROM) but will merge both Malay and British wedding tradition together (the whole Nikah, mahr (hantaran in Malay, sort of like dowry, mas Nikah (I'm not sure the translation in English), that my kids will be taught Islam values (prayers, verses, anything that can partake to them) and the goodness of the world (my partner believes there is existence of God, but not a particular God or book or teachings). We have talked and discussed with each other on this.

The way I see it, it's going to be my parents who will receive backlash for "not bringing up kids the right way". I can take my passport and migrate but my parents will get the end of it. at the same time, understand it will be heartbreaking for them (my partner and I have once again discussed this) and there are slight chances I'll be ignored (to put it kindly) in the family. My mom will receive most of the shit, something that I'll be very sad to see.

I do not have many Malay Muslim friends who had inter-religious/faith wedding, with or without conversion. That may stem from my unusual view on Islam, that may seen me to be headed towards HELL in their opinion. Hence the lack of similar faith friends there.

Pry share with me, if you were or are in the similar situation, what did you do, how did you handle it etc. This is very much appreciated.

Thank you.

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Postby durain » Mon, 23 Jan 2012 11:31 pm

i am sure my wife's parents didnt like me initially because i am NOT converting but over time they can see she is happy and that's the important thing. i never ever met them face to face not more then 3 or 5 times! no, didnt invite them to our wedding and dinner either (coz we had suckling pig). they have now accepted me (but i still not met them officially!). of all my wife's siblings, ours the strongest.

to make it work, there's a lot of give and take and one of the biggest issue/barrier is religion, so the best way is to cut that off. end of the day, we married for love, not race, colour, money and definitely not religion.

not easy, but it can be done. if you found the man of your dream, go for it.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 24 Jan 2012 5:13 am

While my wife isn't muslim, she's the christian version of it (RC). I've been agnostic for nigh on 50 years. Add to that the cultural divide and it's about the same. Marry for love. That is all you will have after the parents die anyway. Like durain, I did the same. Been married 28 years now.

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Postby bytruffle » Tue, 24 Jan 2012 12:30 pm

Thanks for the reply, Durain and Sundaymorning.

Therein lies the difference. My parents love my fiancee to bits (and no, not because he is angmoh but because he is a very nice man). We usually meet up for lunches and he is often invited over to my parents. Long story short, they have accepted him and often wonder what he sees in me, haha.

True about the love part, but I do worry about breaking this news to them. That is something I am unsure of. To be honest, both of us.

I guess time will tell how we will go about this. Anyone else to share their experience on inter-faith/religion situation?

Cheers

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Postby durain » Tue, 24 Jan 2012 6:42 pm

you already doing all the haram stuff, so technically you are not very muslim anyway. so converting is all but futile and it doesnt make it any stronger.

initially, my wife did get some stick about marrying "not one of her kind" and "what people might say!", but she was strong and know what she wanted. her parents are cool about it now coz she is happy, and as parents, that's all you want to see your child to be.

like sms said, marry for love.


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