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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 20 Dec 2010 11:33 am

I read the whole long post! All in the name of religious understanding and harmony :) I must say I learnt a lot and appreciate the earnest yet calm way Muslima presented her points.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Mon, 20 Dec 2010 12:51 pm

Muslima70 wrote:
I merely wanted to point out that sometimes the mis-conceptions people have about Islam and our way of life and our beliefs is just that misconceptions...


I am not sure you can read Arabic or not.

I will write it in plain penguin

"Ya, Ekhwana !! La' Ikraha Fid Din !! Ilah akhir........."


:roll:
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby k1w1 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 6:18 am

I read it all too. For me, the biggest issue of any religious discussion like this is the assumption that the fundamental teachings/beliefs of that religion are correct. (I am therefore nervous about discussing this because it's clear we have very different ideas about what is correct...)

A lot of what Muslima70 said sounds similar to old-fashioned Judeo/Christan ideologies, to be honest. Many of these ideas have now been thrown by the wayside because they are just not appropriate in modern societies anymore.

The part that really irks me about Islam is that there is an idea among many Muslims that it is liberating to tell women they can work if they want to (but they don't need a career), but their husband needs to provide for them - she can divorce him if he doesn't. A woman really only needs to keep her husband happy and raise the kids... I cannot see how any of this is liberating. To my mind, it removes responsibility from the woman and by doing so, implies she is incapable of handling it.

Pointing out that a woman has the right to an education, to own property and to not be treated with cruelty just reinforces the idea that she does not share the same level of rights as men - I'm pretty sure it is not spelled out to men that they can go to college and do not need to put up with abusive treatment.

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 8:09 am

Word.

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Postby Muslima70 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 3:18 pm

k1w1 wrote:I read it all too. For me, the biggest issue of any religious discussion like this is the assumption that the fundamental teachings/beliefs of that religion are correct. (I am therefore nervous about discussing this because it's clear we have very different ideas about what is correct...)

A lot of what Muslima70 said sounds similar to old-fashioned Judeo/Christan ideologies, to be honest. Many of these ideas have now been thrown by the wayside because they are just not appropriate in modern societies anymore.

The part that really irks me about Islam is that there is an idea among many Muslims that it is liberating to tell women they can work if they want to (but they don't need a career), but their husband needs to provide for them - she can divorce him if he doesn't. A woman really only needs to keep her husband happy and raise the kids... I cannot see how any of this is liberating. To my mind, it removes responsibility from the woman and by doing so, implies she is incapable of handling it.

Pointing out that a woman has the right to an education, to own property and to not be treated with cruelty just reinforces the idea that she does not share the same level of rights as men - I'm pretty sure it is not spelled out to men that they can go to college and do not need to put up with abusive treatment.


Hi k1w1 Thanks for sharing your POV..I think you have raised some good points...

1) Just to clarify .many of the rights given to muslim women were not given to Jewish and Christian women... If you say that Torah and the Bible states about rights for education , property etc..could you kindly give some examples?

The reason I ask for examples is that I had friends who converted from Christianity to Islam..and according to them no such rights mentioned...cos they read the whole bible, both new and old testament.

Also none of the Christians and Jews have the original texts anymore..which is problem..cos I believe the changes made by Christians and Jews mean that even if women rights were given, they may have changed those rights.

But maybe my friends are wrong? If so pls explain..I will be happy to learn more...

In fact at one time hundreds of years ago , females were looked down by the Church and some christian scholars even debated if women had souls...

in Islam not only do women have souls..we are also given the same reward for our good deeds as men: the ultimate prize Paradise.

2) In Islam we believe that the very first pair of humans, Adam and Eve were muslims..Hence God taught Adam and Eve many things and guidelines including moral values...
Hence the universal values that we human uphold and cherish today like honesty, love , respect, not to steal, not cheat not to commit murder, etc..these universal values are still relevant cos this is what God has taught the first pair of humans..and that is why no matter what our skin colour those sets of moral values is still relevant today. And these moral values are in fact Islamic values taught to Adam and Eve.

3) The Quran and the Hadith (saying of the Prophet Muhd peace be upon him) are meant as guide for us muslims not just for 1400 years ago...but even for now...

And to my POV its contents are still relevant even today.

Just stop and think for a while?

Are there still families in Singapore, which deny women's rights? Yes..
Do some women in SG face domestic violence?..Yes
Do some women in SG get raped, molested?..Yes
Do some women in SG whom are denied education?...Yes ( tho' more rare now)
Do some women in SG earn less than men?
And this is just SG we are talking about ...

And human trafficking of course boys are also victims..but usually most victims are girls and women?

When violent crimes occur, are victims more often female?

In some countries, female feotuses are still aborted more often than males?

Is there anybody here who can say honestly that this type of problem is only limited to a certain race/culture/religion or nationality?

Or it is more honest to say that ANY woman, from ANY country and ANY time can become a victim of such problems?

So in others words, these problems are universal...women have experienced these problems thousands and thousands of years...

It is unrealistic to say the Quran commands is old fashioned when such things are still happening in this present day.
Anyway and any place any race or religion..women still do experience these problems..I have met such people and they do come from wide spectrum of races and cultures..

4) And you know cases like rape..Financial or educational status does not matter..sometimes a woman she happens to be in the wrong place and the wrong time and she gets raped...
So again..even money and education is not a guarantee that a woman will not be harmed.

Therefore the women's rights pointed out in the Quran/ Islam are very relevant even today. For us the Quran is constant reminder that God wants us to behave at our best at times, not just follow our own negative whims and desires..

5) Just to clarify..Islam does NOT imply that women are incapable of handling anything more than being wife or mother. The role of a wife and mother is Islam is very important. In fact we don't have a low opinion of full-time homemakers, rather quite the opposite..
In Islam she is viewed as doing great service and sacrifice cos she loves her family.
This is the difference between practicing muslims and some non-muslim thinking. Some Non-muslims looks down on a woman if she choose to focus on taking care of the home and the family...she is considered as wasting herself..she is considered oppressed, etc
Yet I do have plenty of friends both muslim and non-muslim who are highly educated and choose to become a full-time housewife cos they want the best for their kids and their hubby..To me that seems that very noble choice. But today people look down on such ladies. Why? Why so little respect for women do a great job taking care of their families?

6) Most of the Islamic texts especially hadith (sayingbof the Prophet) have come from Siti Aisyah, a wife of the Prophet, and she has long been regarded as an important person is Islam...Also if you study Islamic history , there are female leaders... and most of them were also wives and mother. This also includes the descendants of the Prophet, including his great-granddaughter.

And in today's modern world be it Singapore, Malaysia, Oman etc.. we do see muslim women who are successful and are good leaders, be it the secular or religious fields

But pls don't take my word for it..you can do your own research. Or try this website:
http://www.thedeenshow.com/nonmuslims.php


7) What I am trying to say is that commands and rights given to women in the Quran and Hadith are still relevant even today...because even 1400 years later today there are still many women who are being denied their rights...

Incidently it does n't mean that Islam doesn't look out for men's rights..men also have the rights not to be abused, not to have their property stolen and a right to be educated.. men have the similar rights as women in Islam

But the reality is that men usually are stronger than women and more aggressive and more assertive at least that is how it is is most cultures... I am not saying that women don't have such attributes but let us be honest, in most cultures men usually more agggressive in pursuing their goals and their rights.

So the emphasis is spelt out for women to ensure that men don't deny their rights and don't abuse them. And of course it not right for women to abuse or deny each other their rights too...

8) Moreover 1 400 years ago : Pagan Arabs used to bury their baby girls alive. Some arabs were ashamed to have girl children.

Can you imagine living in time when people simply killed babies based on their gender? Oh wait..it still is happening today...

When Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) started the receive the Quranic revelations, such practice of killing babies and innocent human life was forbidden..be it female or male.

Hence those rights spelt out in Quran and the Hadith, were very foreign and too liberal by their standards...so one needs to consider the context and background of the Arab culture when you read the Quran and the Hadith. Also consider what women's status was 1 400 years ago in any part of the world? Many lived in societies in which they too were oppresssed.

9) And the Quran isn't just set of Dos and Dont's..it a way of life. To us we believe that it is God's way of telling us muslims how to have the best behaviour.. :)

Let me give you an example...

If say muslim were to come across a person being raped..he/ she is obligated to try and stop the rapist(s)..If you can't stop the rapist physically, at least shout for help and the worst case scenario because if you worried the rapist(s) will kill you then at least do not agree with the rapist(s) crime ....A muslim who feels no compassion and does not care to help any human being oppressed will going against God's commands...And to us muslims this is a big deal.

10) Ask yourself this : are there countries crime rate is so high and the crime rate so bad , people do ignore a woman if she is being raped? Yes .. you can read about this in the Internet and newspapers... In fact I have read in the Internet that in one African state a doctor found a 6 month-old baby girl that was raped... :cry:

In fact you don't have to look far for rape or molest cases..In Singapore there was case where a woman is partying at sentosa..she got molested..people just looked without stopping the offenders..I can't remember the date but I remember reading that some people even recorded the incident on their mobile phones...

What about other countries? Surely this is not an isolated incident? How many times have we read in the newspaper or the Internet about case where a woman was raped at a party or in public palce and witnesses just ignored the woman's cries for help?

So to me it seems even "modern" countries still have not fully enforced women's rights..in fact we humans of any race or religion or nationality still have a lot of room to improve.

And that is why to Islam and the Quran can never be old fashioned or irrelevant.

Just my POV.
Salam(peace be with you)

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Postby k1w1 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 4:43 pm

1. A huge difference between Islam and other faiths is that Muslims must follow Shariah law.

2. In most Western/democratic countries, there is separation between church/faith and state. So it matters nought what a religion claims, the law is for everyone. So no matter how sexist a religion is (and most fundamentally are - not denying that at all) it is irrelevant. Singapore gets around this by having Shariah courts for Muslims.

3. There is widespread debate in many Christian and Jewish faiths about the sexist way that women are regarded. There have been changes in many denominations and while far from perfect, change has occurred and is still occurring. For instance, women can be ministers or rabbis now. It is no longer part of Christian wedding vows for women to "love, honour and obey" her husband. However, Muslim women are still not allowed to pray in the same area as men in a mosque.

It is alarming to me that laws are based on religious texts - and their appropriateness then never debated or critically examined... How appropriate is the section of the Koran that stipulates that a man can hit his wife is she gets out of line? Or the part that justifies women only inheriting half of what her brothers inherit? Why there is no such thing as rape when it is by a woman's husband? Again, these ideas just reinforce the idea that a woman is to be looked after by a man (even belongs to him?) and therefore needs all guidance/protection to come from him... I just cannot see women's liberation in any of this.

What happens if a Muslim woman chooses not to stay home with her children? Does she have the choice not to do this? What happens if the father of those children wanted to stay home with them instead? Not allowing social change like this is incredibly sexist and does an injustice to both parents, in my opinion.

Havinf done lots of research into Islam, I know there are a number of very good things about the faith. However, there are a lot of areas that I think Muslims need to really sit down and look at and consider updating their laws. With the greatest of respect, Muslima70, many of these ideas are very outdated and really do not serve anyone but Muslim men.

Edit: I have deliberately avoided discussing the various religious stories you've brought up as it is very clear we have different ideas on all that...

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 5:30 pm

Words.

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Postby Muslima70 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 6:04 pm

k1w1 wrote:1. A huge difference between Islam and other faiths is that Muslims must follow Shariah law.

2. In most Western/democratic countries, there is separation between church/faith and state. So it matters nought what a religion claims, the law is for everyone. So no matter how sexist a religion is (and most fundamentally are - not denying that at all) it is irrelevant. Singapore gets around this by having Shariah courts for Muslims.

3. There is widespread debate in many Christian and Jewish faiths about the sexist way that women are regarded. There have been changes in many denominations and while far from perfect, change has occurred and is still occurring. For instance, women can be ministers or rabbis now. It is no longer part of Christian wedding vows for women to "love, honour and obey" her husband. Muslim women are still not allowed to pray in the same area as men in a mosque.

It is alarming to me that laws are based on religious texts - and their appropriateness then never debated or critically examined... How appropriate is the section of the Koran that stipulates that a man can hit his wife is she gets out of line? Or the part that justifies women only inheriting half of what her brothers inherit? Why there is no such thing as rape when it is by a woman's husband? Again, these ideas just reinforce the idea that a woman is to be looked after by a man (even belongs to him?) and therefore needs all guidance/protection to come from him... I just cannot see women's liberation in any of this.

What happens if a Muslim woman chooses not to stay home with her children? Does she have the choice not to do this? What happens if the father of those children wanted to stay home with them instead? Not allowing social change like this is incredibly sexist and does an injustice to both parents, in my opinion.

With the greatest of respect, Muslima70, many of these ideas are very outdated and really do not serve anyone but Muslim men.


Hi k1w1, once again thank you for the comments.

I think the main difference that muslims with regards to non-muslims, is that we regard the Quran as God's relevations, in his own words...

So for us muslims, if God gives us a commands and guidance ..He what knows best for us. I know this idea is strange to many non-muslims out there..but look at from my POV...it seems strange to me that so many pple out there don't love and thank God Almighty.

1)The Quranic words are in Arabic..which is the highest level of Arabic , compared to say modern Arabic. What most muslims read are the translations. So you have many transalations of the Quran out there..some which are more accurate , some very inaccurate and some in between.

2) Arabic language is very complex and the one in the Quran is the most complex...most of the English transalations out there even the very best translators admit they cannot really convey all the depths and subtle meanings from Arabic to English.

3) Muslims also use the Hadith, the religious fatwa (ruling) and finally the own common sense when applying Islam in their lives. In fact there is hadith in which the prophet encouraged people to use their own common sense and conscience when dealing with situations not covered in the Quran and the Hadith.

4) The Quran is meant as guide and where neccessary muslims do adapt to the situation, depend on circumstances.

5) Women in Islam are all considered beautiful..and women and men are naturally attracted to one another..men and women pray in different places to remove distractions to each other...For us Muslims when we pray we are having a dialouge with God..since He is the most the most important being to us, no distractionns means better concentration. The prayers itself is quite short just 10 min or so..

Also when we pray we need to be in a state of "ceremonial purity" We have to wash our hands, face and feet before doing prayers. Touching the skin of a person of the opposite sex will nullify this washing , and we will have to do it again, before we can pray...hence another reason why men and women do not pray together, so they do not accidentally bump into each other.

Muslim men and women do not hate each other , nor are we enemies..we respect each other..as this is the essence of the teachings in the Quran and the Hadith.

5) Female islamic leaders have long existed in Islam...Starting with the Prophet's wives..unlike other religions Islam has never had problem with that...even today we still have them..in the local context of singapore we call the "ustazah". If do not believe pls ask a practicing muslim colleague...

Read up on Islamic history, for women , we can lead the prayers for group of women. Female religius leaders also teach and counsel both men and women...you can check this out for yourself in Singapore.

We do not have rabbis and priests in Islams and hence we do not have such practices for the women wither...

In Islam, even in the local community here, muslims do check and challenge the islamic scholars, if they are not happy about something...
Unlike other religions we do not consider islamic scholars to "God" and hence will question them...


6) about hitting one's wife...yes I do not deny that there is verse that states that...but let us take second look shall we? Firstly if wife if badly behaved and has become destruactive to the family, he must counsel her, next her must stop sleeping with her and finnaly only if does not choose to divorce her, then he can choose to beat her lightly as a reminder.

As I mentioned Quran is meant as a guide and to be with the hadith (sayings of the Prophet).

In his lifetime, there was a point when the Prophet's wives demanded to have more gold and income...As Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) had an obligation to give to the poor and needy first, he chose not to give his own family too much. In fact they were quite poor and often had only a few peices of dates to eat.

7)To cut the long story short, the Prophet did not beat them or even threaten to hurt. He have them two choices remain married to him, remain poor but receive paradise or they can ask for divorce and he will let them go with a bag or gold. His wives chose to remain with him.[/b]

So the point is if there is serious dispute, Prophet himself did not choose violence rather he offerred to let the spouse divorce.

There are also saying by the Prohpet in which he says me who are the best men are those who are kindest to their wives, they should not beat their wives like slaves and other similar saying.

If men choose to hit their wives it not beacuse The Quran and the Hadith encourages men to abuse women, but because they want to do it

In Islam men are considered the leaders and care-takers in the family, he is not supposed the ill-treat his wife or kids. The paragraph is meant for men who have wives who are badly behaved perhaps she has become very destructive to the family. maybe she is alchoholic who is hurting and yet the husband does not want to divorce her?

If he really is that desperate he cannot hit in anger, rather he has to do what the Prophet Jonah did when he punished his wife for critising God...take 100 thin reeds, tie them together and hit his wife once gently.

Since this is mentioned in the Quran and the Hadith, I place my faith in God that He must have His reasons..

Again this is based on what i heard from Islamic scholars..and even then they do not encourage. They usually urge to do what the Prophet did..counsel the wife and be patient..but if really cannot agree then divorce, cos no choice.

As for rape, I cannot answer I am not a muslim lawyer..but I do know my rights as muslim woman, if I am married, and my husband hurts me via sex.. that is already grounds for divorce and I can go to to the Syaraih court to complain..if necessary if I can get medical eveidence I can pursue the issue in court.

But also know my husband's rights over me, where possible I should try to agree to have sex with him...unless I am sick or tired..I can only deny him maximum of 3 months..After 3 months no sex without valid reason my husband can also go to Syariah court and complain, same goes for the wife she can also compalin if husband refuse to have sex with her for 3 continous months.

Anways for those people who are married I am surely you will agree it hurts when your spouse refuses to sleep with you, too many times... it will hurt the relationship...

8) As for inheritance , again as I mentioned men have more responsibility..so their share is meant to help their female relatives..Even then islamic scholars and the Court do look at the situation.
In Sinagpore for instance , the Syariah court did not allow a nephew to take over his uncle's CPF cos he did not show proof that he will take care of the uncle's widow..in fact the nephew tried to use the islamic law to justify his inheritance but the Muslim judges here disgree with him and awarded the uncle's money to the widow.

So Being a muslim, does not mean following the Quran blindly and the Hadith blindly. One must use one's reasoning power too...

10) Muslim women do work and earn their own income, even when the Porhoet is alive...Pls read some authentic Islamic hsitory aspecially abot well know female muslims..

we even had owmen who were good in medicine especially eye ailments 1 , 400 years ago.

Islam does not stop women from earning their own income. Again check out Islamic history, and look around you..many muslim women, including myself who are educated and working.

Even when the Prophet was alive, during his lifetime women worked to helped themselves and their husbands.

There is nothing in Islam that prevents any muslim, male or female from working and nothing to prevent a muslim, male or female, from getting an education, religious education and secular education, no problem.

k1w1 with all due respect to you..at the end of the day..you are not a muslim..so yes it will be difficult for you to understand and accept my way of life. Which is ok. I am not living to please you..I am not living to please my parents...in fact I leanrt alot of stuff about islam and shared with my family. And to some extent educated my own family about islam..cos they used to have lost of wrong ideas too..

I am living my life to please God Almighty, to me He does exists and he is the Most Merciful ., the Most Loving. he knows us human better than we know ourselves...And i know he loves more than anyone ever can.

You may find my attitude bizzare, but to me, my peace of mind comes by submitting myself to the Creator, the One and Only God.

To me it is as simple as that.

As for the other points I have missed..Sorry..once again I am not an Islamic scholar..I can read the Quran in english, but i don't speak Arabic..but I have learnt a lot via teachers, lawyers and parents and friends.

If islam is such bad religion why would I an educated working muslim woman whose family is very liberal make more effort to learn about islam, then be more aware about my religion? If Islam is so bad..I would be the first one to run for the hills ... but the more I learn the more I want to be a better muslim who submits to God.

My own friends are quite a few of converts esp women..and not all of them do it for marriage rather they come to know Islam and love to become muslim...

Dear k1w1 please pm if you want to know more...I really did not mean to "hijack" this thread and to preach islam..but neither can i just watch pple have many wrong ideas about islam.
Salam(peace be with you)

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 9:06 pm

I think the main difference that muslims with regards to non-muslims, is that we regard the Quran as God's relevations, in his own words...


Frankly, therein lies the biggest problem with Islam. Ironically it's the same problem with Catholicism. Both consider their "bible/koran" as the word of God.

The biggest problem with that is they both were written by mortal man, therefore the translation has to be imperfect. Mortal man is NOT capable of knowing exactly what god/allah was thinking at any given time. Therefore the whole basis of both religions are suspect to say the least. All that's being done here is the proverbial flogging of a dead horse as neither/no religion is going to admit that their religion is fallible when in actual fact, all HAVE to be as they were actually written by that most fallible of all creatures, Man.

So, while your writings are coherent and well though out, as is k1w1's, it's been done to death. Religion is a sop for the masses. It's something created for and operated by men in order to enslave large tracts of the world's population for various reasons, not all of them admirable.

I have nothing against moderate Muslims at all. In fact I worked length & breath of Indonesia from 1982 to 1994 along with a lot of time spend on the upper east coast of Malaysia. I get along fine with moderates. In fact, I can get along with any religion as I am agnostic and have been since around 1960. I have studied most of the major religions from then until around 1985. Unfortunately I was never able to accept 100% of any religion as all have obvious flaws (some have been pointed out in this thread in only one religion). Before you jump, Malaysians are mostly Sunni's and they are refusing or trying to refuse to let in any Shia. This is also the problem in Iraq isn't it. Sounds a lot like Catholics and Protestants in Ireland doesn't it.

As far as I'm concerned, this is my take on religion.....

If {insert whatever religion you fancy} makes you a better person, then that is the religion you should embrace.

Otherwise we are all Image or Image

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Postby JR8 » Tue, 21 Dec 2010 9:26 pm

Word up.

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Postby k1w1 » Wed, 22 Dec 2010 3:58 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
I think the main difference that muslims with regards to non-muslims, is that we regard the Quran as God's relevations, in his own words...


Frankly, therein lies the biggest problem with Islam. Ironically it's the same problem with Catholicism. Both consider their "bible/koran" as the word of God.

The biggest problem with that is they both were written by mortal man, therefore the translation has to be imperfect. Mortal man is NOT capable of knowing exactly what god/allah was thinking at any given time. Therefore the whole basis of both religions are suspect to say the least. All that's being done here is the proverbial flogging of a dead horse as neither/no religion is going to admit that their religion is fallible when in actual fact, all HAVE to be as they were actually written by that most fallible of all creatures, Man.

So, while your writings are coherent and well though out, as is k1w1's, it's been done to death. Religion is a sop for the masses. It's something created for and operated by men in order to enslave large tracts of the world's population for various reasons, not all of them admirable.

I have nothing against moderate Muslims at all. In fact I worked length & breath of Indonesia from 1982 to 1994 along with a lot of time spend on the upper east coast of Malaysia. I get along fine with moderates. In fact, I can get along with any religion as I am agnostic and have been since around 1960. I have studied most of the major religions from then until around 1985. Unfortunately I was never able to accept 100% of any religion as all have obvious flaws (some have been pointed out in this thread in only one religion). Before you jump, Malaysians are mostly Sunni's and they are refusing or trying to refuse to let in any Shia. This is also the problem in Iraq isn't it. Sounds a lot like Catholics and Protestants in Ireland doesn't it.

As far as I'm concerned, this is my take on religion.....

If {insert whatever religion you fancy} makes you a better person, then that is the religion you should embrace.

Otherwise we are all Image or Image


Completely agree with everything you said, SMS. I have also researched pretty much every major religion plus some of the lesser known ones (even studied some at university), but none have really sat right with me either. There is a huge difference, in my opinion, between the faults of a faith and the followers, most of whom are decent people trying to live the way they think is best. Most religions are political to some extent and definitely none are perfect or have a clean history - let's not even start with the Catholics and Protestants!

I also agree that if your faith makes you a better person, then more power to you, you've find your path. So many of us just follow what our culture or family tell us and never really look at what we are believing or make a conscious choice. That doesn't sit well with me either. Too many religions use "the way it has always been" or some story from their book to justify not changing or adapting, which I think is wrong.

Thanks for your detailed posts and thoughts, Muslima70. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Peace. :)

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Postby Muslima70 » Wed, 22 Dec 2010 11:56 am

Peace to all,
Firstly thanks to all of you who have taken the time to read my posts.

I do agree this is something that we will have to just agree to disagree on. As a muslim I have my own way of life, and as non-muslims, you all have your own way of life.
You don't worship the God I worship, I don't worship the God ( or the lack of god) that you worship.

I also know that being an average muslim, I lack the correct style or delivery , to help you understand about Islam, marriage and the relationship between men and women in Islam.

I just want to highlight Once again, as I have in my previous posts : that Islam does allow both men and women to work, and to achieve their potentials. Women can work and help their husbands, their families and themselves...it has always been this way even since the Prophet's time.

Even if women choose to be the main breadwinner, or not , this has to be mutual discussion between husband and wife, esp before their sign the marriage contract. There is nothing that forbids a woman from being sole breadwinner if it necessary for her to do so.

I do have a video here, that everyone can watch. I think that the American speaker definitely conveys the points across much better than I do, plus he can quote the relevant Quranic verses and Hadith .

http://thedeenshow.com/show.php?action=detail&id=53

I think the wonderful thing about being human, is that we all have own unique believes and way of living our life. As a muslim, I always belief as per God's command in the Quran:
There is no compulsion in religion. The Truth shall stand clear from error. ( Quran: Chp 2, V:256).

Once again thanks to all and I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas.
Peace be with you.
Salam(peace be with you)

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Vaucluse
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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 31 Dec 2010 3:39 pm

You make very good points, Muslima . . . and in theory it all sounds lovely . . . but that is where it ends. Theory. In one way or another man/woman (though usually man) bastardises the teachings of all religions.

I have lived in Malaysia for close to three years now, have worked in several countries in the Middle East and lived in Lebanon for four years as a child, so perhaps I may allow myself an opinion.

In looking at religions it seems that Islam stands out as fairly well the only one where discussing and disagreeing with the scripture is haram . . . whereas Jews, Christians etc... spend a lot of time discussing interpretations with one another. There is no open debate concerning Islam

How a people can claim to know the teachings of a book whose language they cannot understand is beyond me. Not a single Malay I know can speak or read Arabic . . . yet the Koran is in Arabic and needs to be learned by heart.

I think it is fairly clear that a woman's status in comparison with man's in marriage, divorce, witnessing, inheritance, veiledness, and concubinage is anything but equal. Inequality between man and woman, at the expense of the woman, stands out clearly. Examples abound . . . inheritance law anyone?

"Men are the managers of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property" (Sura al-Nisa´ 4:34)


And the narration Al-Dhahhak that 'Man is in charge of the woman commanding her to obey God. If she refuses, he has [the right] to give her a mild beating...'

The issue of Mohammad marrying a seven-year old (Aisha) and consummating the marriage when she was nine years old is not discussed and not even widely known, even among the more educated.

Unfortunately governments allow Islam to be seen as weak, ineffectual and frightened . . . as can be seen by the various Sharia courts outlawing yoga for Muslim women because the court believes that when making an 'ooommmhhh' sound the person utters an ancient buddhist chant and may be 'led astray' . . . to deviate from their faith.
Line dancing? Qi Gong?

The list is endless of course . . . but to question Islam in an Islamic country is impossible . . . which makes one ask the question why?

I have nothing against Islam, nor Muslims . . . well, except for those that go rioting, burning and killing when some obscure caricaturist draws a comic of Muhammad or someone mentions that a Koran was thrown into a rubbish bin . . . but I do firmly believe that it is an anachronism in our times . . . shall we mention kalwat? . . . and that the religion is still based solely on the first and only teachings of some 1500 years ago.
......................................................

'nuff said Image

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JR8
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Postby JR8 » Fri, 31 Dec 2010 11:20 pm

Vaucluse wrote:I have nothing against Islam, nor Muslims . . . well, except for those that go rioting, burning and killing when some obscure caricaturist draws a comic of Muhammad


The front cover of British satirical magazine 'Private Eye' from the time of that saga...

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Postby ksl » Sat, 01 Jan 2011 10:33 pm

Interesting, though i have always been under the impression there is only one god and many religions.....now I'm totally :???: Though I am happy I have faith in myself and others no matter what religion they are.

It is my opinion that all religions have there good and bad points, the same as all individuals, it is the interpretation of life and culture that evolves or stands still in the 21st century.

This again is individual though lets not be so naive not to recognise peer pressure and environmental conditions that lay down the laws of what is right and what is wrong. There is good and there is bad and these are the choices we have...and we are intelligent enough to choose how we wish to live, but still we are not allowed because of restrictions.

I would like to see all restrictions taken away from religion, I would like to see freedom not condemnation. Until that day happens I pray to one god that has many different names when I have the need to pray.


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