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Dating a Muslim girlfriend

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Postby nakatago » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:26 am

leona123 wrote:Nakatago, my opinion...I don't think people finding it hard to adapt to change is the reason why they don't change. They refuse to change because a change would probably mean that their god was wrong initially.


What is that but change? That is a change in knowledge. People from times of the holy books understood that the world works certain ways and proclaimed things are correspondingly so. But human knowledge changes--our understanding of the universe around us--and so should certain things that are attached to it.

And ditto for SMS said. The fundies are so hung up on what scripture says but scripture was still written by mortal hands, divine inspiration or not. How many times do we hear people asking for a sign from the heavens and say they got one? How can they be so sure? Answer--they can't, lacking an empirical and repeatable way of confirming an answer.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 11:57 am

Religion is merely man's way of trying to understand the world. Nothing wrong with it until it's used to control and threaten others. When I grow up I want to be like the Dalai Lama who said:

"My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 12:11 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Religion is merely man's way of trying to understand the world. Nothing wrong with it until it's used to control and threaten others. When I grow up I want to be like the Dalai Lama who said:

"My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."


I have a small problem with that. Without man, religion would not exist. Therefore, religion was created BY man to control and threaten others.

However, I do agree with your thoughts on the Dalai Lama!

And yeah, my trip back to the US recharged my batteries, problems with our government there notwithstanding. :wink: :)

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 5:11 pm

leona123 wrote:JR8, I don't think you even bothered to figure out the message I am trying to get across.

And just as you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. So, go chill out yourself.

As for those marrying a muslim in Singapore, especially a malay, go find out legal implications and the kind of family you are marrying into. Think about what you or your partner is willing to compromise on before you tie the knot or even if you are planning to get serious. It would help with the decision making. Ignorance isn't bliss in this situation.



I found your post unecessarily alarmist. What with the upper case emphasis, and negative pre-judging tone with phrases such as 'If against all odds'.

'did you know that the muslim spouse will be called in for a personal chat to let him know what a serious crime he has committed in Islam?'

As I said, MUIS send you an invite to have a chat, rather than you being 'called in'. Chuck it in the bin, simple. Nothing else happens.

I am unaware of any other implications of my own cross-cultural marriage, hence my finding your frenzied tone rather puzzling!

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 6:17 pm

JR8,
I found your post unecessarily alarmist.

Yes, as you correctly identified, "You found". It's YOUR opinion.

What with the upper case emphasis, and negative pre-judging tone with phrases such as 'If against all odds'.

Your views are shaped by your experiences, the people you know and the religious books you read. Mine similarly. To me, and to MANY people out there who have gone through a similar situation, what I said would be close to their hearts. And I definitely AM NOT pre-judging. I am COMPLETELY aware that different couples handle problems differently and willing to compromise on different issues. What I AM saying is that BE IN THE KNOW BEFORE YOU COMMIT. So, please do clarify first before attacking the strawman.

As I said, MUIS send you an invite to have a chat, rather than you being 'called in'. Chuck it in the bin, simple. Nothing else happens.

A very surface level thinking in my opinion. A government body is willing to make arrangements and spend man hours to talk to the muslim marrying under civil law. What message is it getting across to its muslim citizens? As for chucking it in the bin, yeah. Are you sure the muslim person involved in another relationship would just simply chuck it in the bin just like your spouse did? As I already clearly mentioned, all relationships ARE different. And from MY (perhaps limited) experiences(my husband's entire family is muslim and I have many muslim friends whom I DO talk to regarding their views on interfaith marriage), it would be RARE to find a muslim, especially MALAY muslim who will marry you if you don't convert. Why don't you just ASK AROUND.

I am unaware of any other implications of my own cross-cultural marriage, hence my finding your frenzied tone rather puzzling!

You obviously have not been following the thread. Please go to page 3 and read up under inheritance law. It WOULD affect all non-muslims married to a muslim. So, if you are a non-muslim married to a muslim, go read it and speak to a lawyer if you must.

Also, just because YOU didn't face any cultural/religious problems with your spouse, it doesn't mean others wouldn't. Of course, it also doesn't mean that because I faced problems, others would either. I'm saying, "GO FIND OUT BEFORE COMMITTING. THERE IS NO HARM IN HAVING MORE INFORMATION". As I said, ignorance isn't bliss. Know about the religion, legal implications and TALK TO THE MUSLIM PARTNER ABOUT HIS/HER VIEWS and if he would be able to make certain compromises and legal arrangements after marriage.

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 6:22 pm

nakatago wrote:
leona123 wrote:Nakatago, my opinion...I don't think people finding it hard to adapt to change is the reason why they don't change. They refuse to change because a change would probably mean that their god was wrong initially.


What is that but change? That is a change in knowledge. People from times of the holy books understood that the world works certain ways and proclaimed things are correspondingly so. But human knowledge changes--our understanding of the universe around us--and so should certain things that are attached to it.

And ditto for SMS said. The fundies are so hung up on what scripture says but scripture was still written by mortal hands, divine inspiration or not. How many times do we hear people asking for a sign from the heavens and say they got one? How can they be so sure? Answer--they can't, lacking an empirical and repeatable way of confirming an answer.


Nakatago, I was not saying that it isn't change. I was trying to give what I think the reasons are for resisting change. Yes, I completely agree with you that when our understanding of the universe changes, we should too. However, fundies will not. Because change would mean that their books and their gods were wrong in the first place.

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 6:50 pm

We've already had at least one person here previously expressing severe anxiety over the non-event of having MUIS writing to them, without you stoking it up even more, into something that it simply isn't.

Enough upper case shouting by the way.

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Postby nakatago » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 7:23 pm

JR8 wrote:expressing severe anxiety.



Image

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 8:23 pm

JR8 wrote:We've already had at least one person here previously expressing severe anxiety over the non-event of having MUIS writing to them, without you stoking it up even more, into something that it simply isn't.

Enough upper case shouting by the way.


Enough of you dictating to me what I should and should not do. If you aren't interested, IGNORE. Just because you think it is insignificant, doesn't mean it is. To many a muslims, it is important. Let the interested persons reading my posts go verify if what I said is true and if that info is important to them. The only point you seem to have brought up out of all those I said was just the muis letter. Did you verify the govt website I gave on inheritance law? Or is that insignificant to you as well?

Also, enough of you attacking the strawman. The bold letters weren't meant to be shouting. If it was, I would done EVERYTHING in bold. I highlighted what I felt was salient points in response to your post. So, chill!

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 8:31 pm

leona123 wrote:
JR8 wrote:We've already had at least one person here previously expressing severe anxiety over the non-event of having MUIS writing to them, without you stoking it up even more, into something that it simply isn't.

Enough upper case shouting by the way.


Enough of you dictating to me what I should and should not do. If you aren't interested, IGNORE. Just because you think it is insignificant, doesn't mean it is. To many a muslims, it is important. Let the interested persons reading my posts go verify if what I said is true and if that info is important to them. The only point you seem to have brought up out of all those I said was just the muis letter. Did you verify the govt website I gave on inheritance law? Or is that insignificant to you as well?

Also, enough of you attacking the strawman. The bold letters weren't meant to be shouting. If it was, I would done EVERYTHING in bold. I highlighted what I felt was salient points in response to your post. So, chill!



No I'm sorry, you don't turn up here just last week, not get the culture, then start alarming people and quoting from the Koran without it being pointed out that you are incorrect. Loony!

I am most interested in the subject, I just do not want to see people potentially mislead and intimidated by the likes of you.

In my case inheritence is irrelevant, as you suggest. Anyway, WTF, I'm just giving my views and experience, WTF are you to question that?

What ever!

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Postby leona123 » Sat, 06 Nov 2010 7:45 am

JR8 wrote:No I'm sorry, you don't turn up here just last week, not get the culture, then start alarming people and quoting from the Koran without it being pointed out that you are incorrect.

That's just so lame! Just because I'm new to this forum, it doesn't mean I do not know what's going on and it doesn't mean I have not read other posts. And since you mentioned, please explain the culture of this forum. From what I see, the culture here is to share and also to attack the content and not the person. Sharing with people my own experiences and letting them know WHAT TO EXPECT is NOT alarming people. If you think so, then it is YOUR opinion. Now, who is getting overly anxious here? As for the quran, this is not the only thread that it has been quoted. And obviously, people CAN'T point out my quran quotes are incorrect because IT IS THERE IN THE QURAN! Just go get a quran and check!

JR8 wrote:Loony!

I'm sorry, but were you talking about the culture of this forum? How ironic!

I am most interested in the subject, I just do not want to see people potentially mislead and intimidated by the likes of you.

Yeah, point out in which part I have actually misled people? All the experiences and facts that I have shared ARE TRUE TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE. And people out there are free to check it out for themselves. Once again, just because YOU find them insignificant, doesnt mean others do.

In my case inheritence is irrelevant, as you suggest.

Hmm...irrelevant? I didn't suggest that. I said 'insignificant'. That's a huge difference. For a muslim married to a non-muslim, the information CANNOT BE IRRELEVANT because IT WOULD affect them.
(Sidenote: Well, your use of the word 'irrelevant' suggests to me one of the following:
1) Both you and your spouse are officially muslims
2) Both of you are officially non-muslims
3) Both of you aren't bound by Singapore laws
4) Both of you don't intend to marry.
Of course, you could have simply used the word wrongly but something tells me you didn't. Could be wrong though.)

Anyway, WTF, I'm just giving my views and experience, WTF are you to question that?

LOL. Dictating and telling another person what they should and should not say isn't exactly MY idea of 'giving views and experience'. And this is a DISCUSSION BOARD. There are no rules saying you can't question a person. Without questions, you can't clarify issues. If the question offends you, IGNORE!

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sat, 06 Nov 2010 8:30 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Without man, religion would not exist. Therefore, religion was created BY man to control and threaten others.

However, I do agree with your thoughts on the Dalai Lama! :)

I know where you're coming from with religion and control. I don't like the guilt culture I grew up with.

My small problem with your small problem is this: without man, thought would not exist either. Yet thought is not wrong in itself, just part of who we are. We might as well try to stop thinking as try to stop religion. Sentient beings will try to understand the mysteries of the world, and group together to share their thoughts. This in essence is what religion is all about.

PS: in the spirit of this thread and religious differences, shall we start yelling at each other now? :wink:

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Postby leona123 » Sat, 06 Nov 2010 8:45 am

JR8 wrote:MUIS sent my wife a letter inviting her in for a pre-made appointment. She threw it in the bin. End of.


After your use of your word, 'irrelevant' with regards to inheritance law, I'm just DOUBTING the credibility of what your statement above is IMPLYING.

Anyway, whatever it is implying, you can just throw the letter into the bin but it is not the 'end of' as you put it SO simply. Father will also be informed. MUIS will keep calling the house to enquire and several reminders will be sent. Of course, they can all be ignored. However, it would be in the best interest for the muslim to attend because he/she will be informed about several important issues. Like the marriage is not recognised under islamic law,kids and assets after death (which you can read on the website as well).

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Postby leona123 » Sat, 06 Nov 2010 8:53 am

WIMH wrote:Sentient beings will try to understand the mysteries of the world, and group together to share their thoughts. This in essence is what religion is all about.

True. But, usually, with religion, many fundies would try to force their understanding onto another person although they have no evidence (except their FAITH, if it is considered as evidence in the first place) to back up their claims.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 06 Nov 2010 10:56 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:PS: in the spirit of this thread and religious differences, shall we start yelling at each other now? :wink:


Do you think that is remotely possible? Even when we disagree? :)


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