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Dating a Muslim girlfriend

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leona123
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Postby leona123 » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 8:22 am

Hmm...A Malay guy...Just my opinion... If you DON'T wish to convert to Islam, I think you are going to have a really UNPLEASANT time with him and his family. Good luck to you. I sincerely hope things work out well for you.

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Postby Expat_guy » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 10:47 am

leona123 wrote:
leona123 wrote:Actually, to be fair to Islam, this is one thing that has been obviously deliberately changed to be used against Islam in most anti-islamic websites. But, if you look at the quran and ahadith, it has no mention that a victim or rape has to produce 4 male witnesses. In fact, what is stated in the quran(if I remember correctly) is that if a guy is accusing a woman of adultery, he needs to have 4 male witnesses. I'll post the quotes later and you can see that it is definitely taken to mean something else deliberately.


As mentioned earlier, the quotes from the quran by 3 famous translators are as follows:

Quran 4:24

Picktal: And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accepttheir testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
Shakir: And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
Yusuf Ali: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them witheighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

This is also stated clearly in the quran commentary Tafsir Ibn Kathir (http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=79).


No matter what was said in Koran, just do a google search for "rape victim in Pakistan" you can see that 1000's of women are in jail awaiting trial on the charges of adultery.

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Postby leona123 » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 2:21 pm

Expat_guy wrote:
leona123 wrote:
leona123 wrote:Actually, to be fair to Islam, this is one thing that has been obviously deliberately changed to be used against Islam in most anti-islamic websites. But, if you look at the quran and ahadith, it has no mention that a victim or rape has to produce 4 male witnesses. In fact, what is stated in the quran(if I remember correctly) is that if a guy is accusing a woman of adultery, he needs to have 4 male witnesses. I'll post the quotes later and you can see that it is definitely taken to mean something else deliberately.


As mentioned earlier, the quotes from the quran by 3 famous translators are as follows:

Quran 4:24

Picktal: And those who accuse honourable women but bring not four witnesses, scourge them (with) eighty stripes and never (afterward) accepttheir testimony - They indeed are evil-doers -
Shakir: And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses, flog them, (giving) eighty stripes, and do not admit any evidence from them ever; and these it is that are the transgressors,
Yusuf Ali: And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them witheighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;-

This is also stated clearly in the quran commentary Tafsir Ibn Kathir (http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=79).


No matter what was said in Koran, just do a google search for "rape victim in Pakistan" you can see that 1000's of women are in jail awaiting trial on the charges of adultery.


Probably because the quran also states that if the husband cannot get 4 witnesses, then he can swear 4 times.

Q24:6: As for those who accuse their wives but have no witnesses except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies,(swearing) by Allah that he is of those who speak the truth;

Also, in the quran or the ahadith there are NO VERSES that clearly state that rape is punishable. So, if a woman is raped, instead of the man being punished, the woman might get punished under adultery because zina(premarital/extramarital sex) is punishable in Islam.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 2:41 pm

leona123 wrote:Also, in the quran or the ahadith there are NO VERSES that clearly state that rape is punishable. So, if a woman is raped, instead of the man being punished, the woman might get punished under adultery because zina(premarital/extramarital sex) is punishable in Islam.


Sounds like just the kind of religion one could do without. If you cannot punish the rapist, punish the victim. :roll:

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Postby leona123 » Tue, 02 Nov 2010 4:39 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
leona123 wrote:Also, in the quran or the ahadith there are NO VERSES that clearly state that rape is punishable. So, if a woman is raped, instead of the man being punished, the woman might get punished under adultery because zina(premarital/extramarital sex) is punishable in Islam.


Sounds like just the kind of religion one could do without. If you cannot punish the rapist, punish the victim. :roll:


Exactly. But of course, there are muslims who live in more educated societies and they would agree that victims should not be punished. However, some muslims do feel that it is usually the woman's fault if she gets raped :-|. Worrying, isn't it?

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Postby ocon » Thu, 04 Nov 2010 8:48 pm

some very interesting comments, almost got thru them all but gave up somewhere around page 4.

its certainly a very complicated and confusing situation. im aussie female in an almost 2 year r/ship with a singaporean muslim guy. i personally find it difficult bc most of the relationships out there are the other way around with a muslim female which is surprisingly very different. being a girl we love to talk bout our r/ships but its hard to talk to friends/family and seek advice on line because everyone has such different opinions and levels of understanding. unfortunately most ppl are very critical as well, it still amazes me some of the things ppl say. i think it's really hard to judge when u havent been in the situation ordon't know the people involved in the r/ship. this makes a big difference in assessing the situation and giving advice. this is especially impt when there are such varying degrees of belief within the religion, as mentioned by several ppl there are some practices that are adopted and some that aren't so it really depends on the person. as a non muslim follower (that in respect is trying to learn) this is what confuses me the most and bc of this its difficult to know what to do/say and what not to do/say sometimes.

my advice - its always good to hear different thoughts but be careful what advice you take in it cos it might not relate to your situation. learn from other negative experiences but dont think they will necessariliy end up being the same for u, life is what u and ur partner make it. dont get brainwashed.

anyways, i dont care to comment any more specifically on my thoughts online but if anyone in similar situation care to chat pm me :)

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 3:01 am

Hi Ocon,

Please ignore if my questions are too personal. Are you willing to convert to islam? Or are you already a muslim? If no to both, is your partner AND HIS FAMILY willing to accept you AS YOU ARE? Do you know the legal implications for you and your children if you are a non-muslim and married to a muslim in Singapore? Have you spoken to lawyers about thisbefore? How many Singaporean muslims do you know? Have you ever asked them if they AND THEIR FAMILY would accept a non-muslim into their family? Did you know that MUIS(a government body) strongly discourages such marriage. If against all odds, your partner decides to marry you as you are, did you know that the muslim spouse will be called in for a personal chat to let him know what a serious crime he has committed in Islam?

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 3:11 am

Of course every relationship is unique and only the individual knows what is best for him/her. However, there is nothing wrong in asking for advice. And the person asking should definitely verify if information given is correct by checking up with government websites and muslim friends. That way, you can iron out issues before a relationship gets too serious and it would be easier to make a decision. I wish I had done that before I got to know my muslim boyfriend whom I eventually married. Many a times, the muslim himself doesn't realise what an interfaith marriage entails until their relationship gets too serious.

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 3:19 am

Sorry, I am actually using my mobile so have to reply in snippets.

When you say that you are a non muslim follower, do you mean that you are a non muslim who follow islam or a follower of other religions?

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Postby JR8 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 5:14 am

leona123 wrote:Hi Ocon,

Please ignore if my questions are too personal. Are you willing to convert to islam? Or are you already a muslim? If no to both, is your partner AND HIS FAMILY willing to accept you AS YOU ARE? Do you know the legal implications for you and your children if you are a non-muslim and married to a muslim in Singapore? Have you spoken to lawyers about thisbefore? How many Singaporean muslims do you know? Have you ever asked them if they AND THEIR FAMILY would accept a non-muslim into their family? Did you know that MUIS(a government body) strongly discourages such marriage. If against all odds, your partner decides to marry you as you are, did you know that the muslim spouse will be called in for a personal chat to let him know what a serious crime he has committed in Islam?


Man will you give it a break, you're as bad as they try to be.

MUIS sent my wife a letter inviting her in for a pre-made appointment. She threw it in the bin. End of.

Maybe you might chill out a bit also?

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 8:11 am

JR8, I don't think you even bothered to figure out the message I am trying to get across.

And just as you are entitled to your opinion, I am entitled to mine. So, go chill out yourself.

As for those marrying a muslim in Singapore, especially a malay, go find out legal implications and the kind of family you are marrying into. Think about what you or your partner is willing to compromise on before you tie the knot or even if you are planning to get serious. It would help with the decision making. Ignorance isn't bliss in this situation.

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Postby beenthere » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 9:22 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
leona123 wrote:Also, in the quran or the ahadith there are NO VERSES that clearly state that rape is punishable. So, if a woman is raped, instead of the man being punished, the woman might get punished under adultery because zina(premarital/extramarital sex) is punishable in Islam.


Sounds like just the kind of religion one could do without. If you cannot punish the rapist, punish the victim. :roll:


Nothing to do with the religion but the culture. In neither the koran nor the bible there are NO VERSES that clearly state that insider trading is punishable. Yet - we have laws to take care of it.

We could do without ANY kind of religions and with ANY kind of prejudice.

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Postby nakatago » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 9:45 am

beenthere wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:
leona123 wrote:Also, in the quran or the ahadith there are NO VERSES that clearly state that rape is punishable. So, if a woman is raped, instead of the man being punished, the woman might get punished under adultery because zina(premarital/extramarital sex) is punishable in Islam.


Sounds like just the kind of religion one could do without. If you cannot punish the rapist, punish the victim. :roll:


Nothing to do with the religion but the culture. In neither the koran nor the bible there are NO VERSES that clearly state that insider trading is punishable. Yet - we have laws to take care of it.

We could do without ANY kind of religions and with ANY kind of prejudice.


What people fail to recognize is that these books were written during times when human knowledge and living conditions were different and that humanity changes with the centuries. As knowledge of our world increases, so should our was of interacting with it. What use is holding on to practices if they're no longer valid? On the same vein, humanity should also adapt t new callenges that emerge.

Progressives are on the right track when they interpret their beliefs as dynamic and evolving. Fundamentalists and by extension, extremists, however refuse to even consider change because adapting takes too much effort and they're afraid that their power and control over others will be challenged.

The great religious figures didn't establish certain structures most of the faithful practice right now. It's some overzealous disciple after the figure's passing on most probably did. dogmatists see what they want in what they read a hence mss the point of the true belief that was preached.add to that, several generations of record keeping by a power structure and we end up with a religion with while the core is sound, the surrounding tenets are flawed and designed to keep a group's will imposed on others.

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Postby leona123 » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:40 am

Nakatago, my opinion...I don't think people finding it hard to adapt to change is the reason why they don't change. They refuse to change because a change would probably mean that their god was wrong initially. Amending the holy words would mean you are trying to be god yourself. Though religion does have its benefit at times, I personally feel that the cons outweigh the pros. I have to agree with beenthere that we could do without any religion and prejudices.
Note: I am not saying that we should ban religion. IIt is just my opinion that the world will be a better place without religion.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 05 Nov 2010 10:52 am

leona123 wrote:Nakatago, my opinion...I don't think people finding it hard to adapt to change is the reason why they don't change. They refuse to change because a change would probably mean that their god was wrong initially. Amending the holy words would mean you are trying to be god yourself. Though religion does have its benefit at times, I personally feel that the cons outweigh the pros. I have to agree with beenthere that we could do without any religion and prejudices.
Note: I am not saying that we should ban religion. IIt is just my opinion that the world will be a better place without religion.


The fatal flaw there is that fact that the original words were also written by mortals, not the dogs themselves. Therefore the whole premise of religion is flawed to start with.


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