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ksl
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Postby ksl » Thu, 11 Mar 2010 9:46 pm

Vaucluse wrote:
x9200 wrote:Ok regardless I agree or not, now I am missing the link what all this has to do with our poor Australians?


Like the rest of his ramblings in this regard . . . nothing


And a bit less of the poor Australians bit, thanks! :)
exactly Australia isn't special in this regard of immigrants, crime will increase depending on many social characteristics and variables in culture, of the individuals concerned, though it appear your future of Australia may end up like the UK, if nothing is done about the refugees integration, to help lower crime levels and also educate those locals that are re-offending is it right to say 20% of offenders are local Aboriginal for petty crimes that account for most of the stats.. All Lies?

Here's a report of Australia's productivity looks like they identify some relevant tendencies of being too conservative, they know what to do, but never implement or invest.

http://www.telstraenterprise.com/SiteCo ... whitepaper

Poor Australia hang in there! :) :P Looks like the cream of Australia went on a walkabout and now they are suffering :) Hang in there Skippy! :P they'll be home soon! The majority of us are rambling at leisure :wink:

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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 3:45 am

Utopia, Splatted

Why are you guys so work up on genetics problems that lead to crime ?
Only yesterday , a wheel chair bound guy got smashed by two men at the Sydney Train Station !!
It was shown on the TV last night. Crime is crime.Genetics or not
You do the crime, you pay the time.
Years ago where I work in Saudi, the rate of accident were high. The Saudi Gahmen introduce public canning for speeding !! The accident rate went down !! Drastic situation needs Drastic Action
If the politicians in OZ has the political will to step up and change the crime landscape, we will sleep better at night.
Instead they talk about Lara Bingle and Mark split up. What a pity !!

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Postby Splatted » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 6:10 am

Mad Scientist wrote:Utopia, Splatted

Why are you guys so work up on genetics problems that lead to crime ?


I don't think you understood what I wrote.

My opinion is that it's dangerous to try and make that sort of connection.

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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 8:01 am

So, Mad Scientist . . . do you believe we should change our laws to be as primitive as Singapore and Saudi Arabia?

Ah, the guys that bashed that guy in the wheelchair . . . Pacific Islanders, at least one of them . . .

Damn . . . the baby killer is Indian . . . the Indian guy who was set alight did it himself . . . and now this . . .

Genetics? Maybe some gene manipulation in your past . . .

As for KSL. Umm, what are you smoking, mate? :?
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Postby Mad Scientist » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 2:13 pm

Vaucluse wrote:So, Mad Scientist . . . do you believe we should change our laws to be as primitive as Singapore and Saudi Arabia?


V; I do not think Saudi Arabia and Singapore is primitive in their law and order. The fact is if the public is not able to comprehend or toe the line , I think, some drastic measure need to be done. Saudis for many years did not take heed when they were driving on the roads. Even after years of public education, incentives, road safety , the whole works, nothing goes into the public brain. The death toll keeps on rising
So, they took drastic measure and it works

Same goes to Singapore like on killer litter issues until the Gahmen takes draconian measures and it reduces the rate.

I am not saying we should take drastic as such but if the crime rate in OZ is getting out of hand and the politicians not doing anything to change the law, something got to explode. The police can only do so much.
But if you get only 7 years for manslaughter, is like a walk in the park for all would be criminals.
Now, everything is turning to custard

:???:

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Postby Vaucluse » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 2:49 pm

Here we go again . . .

Mad Scientist wrote:
Vaucluse wrote:So, Mad Scientist . . . do you believe we should change our laws to be as primitive as Singapore and Saudi Arabia?


V; I do not think Saudi Arabia and Singapore is primitive in their law and order.

So, caning, beheading, stoning to death, chopping off limbs . . . is not primitive? Well then, you are welcome to live in Saudi if you wish to be placed under those primitive laws.

The fact is if the public is not able to comprehend or toe the line , I think, some drastic measure need to be done.

Unable to comprehend? Toe the line? The public at large? Do you really believe the public is itself a criminal element? Name me one country in the world without people breaking the law, even your Singapore.

Saudis for many years did not take heed when they were driving on the roads. Even after years of public education, incentives, road safety , the whole works, nothing goes into the public brain. The death toll keeps on rising
So, they took drastic measure and it works

Excellent, please describe the measures and their success. Links would be nice. So, now there are no more driving offenses. Good for Saudi.

Same goes to Singapore like on killer litter issues until the Gahmen takes draconian measures and it reduces the rate.

Draconian? Chopping off an arm for throwing a piece of paper on the street would be draconian . . . and obviously it hasn't worked or there would be no killer litter anymore. Anywhere. Zero. Therefore, the public hasn't learned. The public is still breaking the law. Driving in Singapore? Shocking. It seems Singaporeans have not learned.

I am not saying we should take drastic as such

Oh, but yes, you did. See a few lines above

but if the crime rate in OZ is getting out of hand

What is your definition of 'out of hand'?

and the politicians not doing anything to change the law,

They aren't? Read the article below.

something got to explode. The police can only do so much.
But if you get only 7 years for manslaughter, is like a walk in the park for all would be criminals.

Your solution: death? Is that draconian enough? Do you knwo all the facets of what manslaughter consists of?

Now, everything is turning to custard

Really? Please cite and quote. Thank you

:???:


Have a stickybeak at the Crow-eaters

So many good ideas flow out of the tiny state of South Australia it's a wonder the world isn't paying closer attention. The latest offering from the Premier, Mike Rann, is another criminal justice reform. If his government is re-elected on Saturday week, juries will be permitted to hear details of defendants' prior criminal behaviour. ''It's about making sure that juries have all the facts before them,'' he says.

If that's so, he might get cracking on a few other reforms, such as abolition of the right to silence and scrapping the presumption of innocence - features of the law that clog-up the fact-seeking mechanism.

At least one person not immune from the innovations of Adelaide is the NSW Attorney-General, John Hatzistergos. He borrowed from South Australia the shape and texture of the anti-gangs law, which has gone down a real treat with bikie-fearing citizens of this state.

A NSW government with its back to the wall come next March might well dig into SA's bag of election gimmicks and give the prior conviction reform a bit of a whirl.

If that happens, we should recognise the whole thing as a stunt. Rann himself admits these changes will be put through the ''consultation process'', which means no one can be sure what comes out the other end. In any event, judges still have to make sure trials are fair and no doubt plenty of discretions will remain intact.

Furthermore, it's not as though the ventilation of prior convictions is unheard of in criminal trials.

In NSW, they can get in if defendants raise evidence of their good character, or in some circumstances where an accused makes a collateral attack on the character of a prosecution witness. Evidence about an accused's character that goes to the ''tendency'' or ''coincidence'' of acting in a particular way can only be admitted where the ''probative value substantially outweighs the prejudice''. It's left to the judge to jiggle that one, but generally there is a forest of rules protecting accused people from having juries know too much about their past.

What occurs more frequently is the admission of evidence about the behaviour or acts of an accused that have not resulted in charges - particularly in sexual assault cases.

In England, there has been a considerable loosening of the rules against admission of prior criminality. Studies have cast doubt on whether juries are prejudiced by this evidence.

An Oxford study found juries are not influenced to convict merely because of a criminal record - unless it is for paedophilia, in which case they'll convict almost regardless of what the accused said or did.

In the US, Cornell University academics found the admissibility of priors ''does not affect jury assessment of the defendant's credibility''.

In 18th century England, admission of priors was standard practice. There were a lot of things about the law in those days that seem strange to us.

The norm was for criminal prosecutions to be ''private''. Victims tended to be wealthier than the fraudsters, robbers or brigands who had done them down. Prosecution associations flourished and they hired lawyers to prosecute on behalf of the victims.

Accompanying those arrangements was the compounding of out-of-court settlements with the crims. This allowed the lawyers and the victims to be rewarded.

The lawyers switched sides, so to speak, when the plunder of criminals began to outweigh the wealth of victims. The former prosecutor and academic Brett Dawson has noted that very soon defendants' rights proliferated and victims' rights disappeared.

Following the money, attorneys invented things like the right to silence and the hiding of past criminality. It allowed for elaborate and protracted argument, lengthening of criminal trials and greater revenue for lawyers.

This is why the number of defence lawyers appearing in Old Bailey criminal cases between 1770 and 1800 increased by 30 per cent.

Ever since, people have been wondering whether these rules of evidence are more about getting crooks off rather than running fair trials. It would not be too crude an observation to say that as with the right to silence, keeping priors away from juries has done the guilty who are found not guilty no harm at all. And that goes for their lawyers as well.

Now the pendulum, with the momentum of the media and politicians behind it, is swinging back in favour of victims, but over the loud protests of the attorneys.

To a large extent, a lot of the argument about priors is an abstraction. The internet has helped jurors and everyone else know what's what. The courts and the defence barristers haven't worked out how to stop people finding out.

If Rann really wants juries to have all the facts, he would replace all the rules of evidence with just one: if it's relevant it goes in.


http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/ ... -q1ft.html


So, please do yourself a favour and do some research.
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Postby ksl » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 3:27 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:Utopia, Splatted

Why are you guys so work up on genetics problems that lead to crime ?
Only yesterday , a wheel chair bound guy got smashed by two men at the Sydney Train Station !!
It was shown on the TV last night. Crime is crime.Genetics or not
You do the crime, you pay the time.
Years ago where I work in Saudi, the rate of accident were high. The Saudi Gahmen introduce public canning for speeding !! The accident rate went down !! Drastic situation needs Drastic Action
If the politicians in OZ has the political will to step up and change the crime landscape, we will sleep better at night.
Instead they talk about Lara Bingle and Mark split up. What a pity !!


You are not wrong I can imagine the Amazon warrior walking down the street with his poison dart blow pipe, knocking out the cat population, again conditioning to environmental policies have to be enforced in a heavy and effective way! In general all around the world financial gain, is more important than democratically sharing the blame, only the public can put the pressure on those politicians, who generally don't give a toss, if its not effecting them with only a few thousand complaints a year, now if a million or so complain wow what publicity, would they achieve, its got to get worse before it gets better.

The UK public have still not woke up to the fact they have big social problems and don't know how to fix them, bad management very similar in Australia too, all they do is try to throw money in the wrong direction, because some academic idiot, recommends it....Public housing estates have notorious names for crime around Countries, they are no worse than ghetto areas, and the stigma sticks like shit to a blanket,,,,they need demolition and renaming for any stroke of progress. Never happens because the privy purse, only pays for make overs.

Laws are much more difficult to enforce in larger areas and larger populations, if you don't have the man power.

NS in Australia would be a brilliant idea, it matures problem kids into more responsible people, and that's why responsible kids hate the idea, because it only delays their future.

Though a combination of study and NS should be integrated, its bollocks to lock people in for life, they should be encouraged with financial incentives and opportunities for skill upgrading. That way it will encourage those with lower educational levels to serve.

Laws have to be enforced and the best method is to hit the pocket, more money for the public coffers!

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Postby ksl » Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:46 pm

nakatago wrote:@utopia and ksl,

You know, if you could get your hands on data off the human genome project, you could settle this once and for all.


Though I haven't finished my research on the humane genome project, there are some strong indicators, that generation changes apply, effecting culture...though it doesn't pinpoint race. which wasn't my intention.

Human Genome Project: The project focuses on obtaining DNA samples from "key populations" composed of people who have lived in a particular region for several generations and maintained the same culture. An estimated 5000 of these so-called key populations live on earth.
HapMap

The goal of the International HapMap Project is to develop a haplotype map of the human genome. HapMap will describe the common patterns of human DNA sequence variation by comparing individuals' genetic sequences to identify chromosomal regions where genetic variants are shared. HapMap is expected to be a key resource for researchers to find genes affecting health, disease, and responses to drugs and environmental factors. Information produced by the project will be released to the public and freely available. The project is a collaboration among scientists in Japan, the United Kingdom, Canada, China, Nigeria, and the United States. DNA samples for HapMap will come from 270 people: the Yoruba people in Ibadan, Nigeria, Japanese in Tokyo, Han Chinese in Beijing, and the genetic samples in the Paris Centre d'Etude du Polymorphisme Humain (CEPH) collection. HapMap started in 2002 and was scheduled to run for only 3 years, but it has been extended.


I have also been able to locate the migration of my surname from the UK to the USA it appears my surname links have dwindled rapidly over the last two hundred and fifty years though. It certainly is believed that environmental differences can be seen by generations.

Though what data is held i have yet to find out. Thanks for the tip nakatago, though my knowledge of animal behaviour, and human behaviour patterns, tell my we can be conditioned and that it does effect our DNA, the gene is the same for all races, and one cannot pinpoint race, environmental data changes DNA. The results must be availabe today, it's just finding them now!

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Postby utopia » Tue, 16 Mar 2010 7:12 am

Vaucluse wrote:....And that's just today . . . I can furnish you with these stories and reports from just about any country on a daily basis . . . but that would prove pretty much what your efforts prove: Nothing

Clearly, since crime exists in other countries, therefore it's not an 'issue' in Australia.

Like I said before, it's perfectly fine to have this POV, I know I rather read about Lara Bingle as well, and let some other Australian generation sort out the ... oh wait, they don't have to sort anything out.

It's a rather simple Question :
Is there a problem of crime in Australia & do you have a vested interest to resolve it?

If NO :
Then really, the interest in the discussion to address the issue ends here, and you can stop reading here.
Unless of course you want to join in to 'prove' no such issues are occurring,
- or that the issues ARE occurring, but it isn't a problem /add reasoning here/



If YES : If you have a suggestion that might work for Australia, AND if you want to share it, I'll personally appreciate reading about it.

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Postby Vaucluse » Tue, 16 Mar 2010 12:53 pm

Of course crime is a problem in Australia, as it is everywhere in the world.

Please explain to me what you mean about my having a 'vested' interest in resolving it . . .

What is your vested interest in this issue to have you trolling newspapers and doing copy and pastes of crimes committed to 'prove' your 'theories'


And yes, it would be interesting to this debate where you hail from
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Postby utopia » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 5:02 pm

What theory do you think I've attempted to 'prove' , other then the fact the crime is a problem in Australia? or that they seem to be increasingly more violent, executed by younger criminals with scant/zero respect for the (impotent) legal system ?

That there doesn't seem to exist a 'critical' mass of Australians where the above issue ranks high enough on their priority list? Perhaps it's the NIMBY attitude, or it ISN'T a problem, or it's in the "too hard" basket requiring too much lobbying - whatever it is, it seems to leading the way for Australia to attain the "no go zones" ethic ghettos that already exist in the great democracy of USA.

“If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going”

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Postby Splatted » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 7:40 pm

Image

Oh God, when is this thread going to die

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Postby Vaucluse » Wed, 17 Mar 2010 8:01 pm

[quote="utopia"]What theory do you think I've attempted to 'prove' ,

Have a read of your genetics handshake with KSL

other then the fact the crime is a problem in Australia? or that they seem to be increasingly more violent, executed by younger criminals with scant/zero respect for the (impotent) legal system ?

Citing the odd newspaper article to 'support' your assertion. Highly disingenuous. Did you go to University? Did you do any theses? If so, you should know how to do it.

That there doesn't seem to exist a 'critical' mass of Australians where the above issue ranks high enough on their priority list?

Again, a link for this would be very good. The lack thereof makes your comments quite lame

Perhaps it's the NIMBY attitude, or it ISN'T a problem, or it's in the "too hard" basket requiring too much lobbying - whatever it is, it seems to leading the way for Australia to attain the "no go zones" ethic ghettos that already exist in the great democracy of USA.

Indeed, there are several 'ghetto' areas; Vietnamese, Korean, Arab . . . but to liken them to no-go zones like in the US is childish and misleading . . . very much like the rest of your assertions

“If we don't change direction soon, we'll end up where we're going”
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Postby Bafana » Thu, 18 Mar 2010 3:16 am

For once I agree with Vit V (don't spread it around).

All I am hearing from a few jealous Aussie Bashing recalcitrant's is a very loose argument about how bad and unsafe Aussie Society is without any real evidence other than newspaper clippings and the ranting of opposition leaders trying to muddy the waters at every chance they get. There is no solid argument being made and quite frankly, your attack on the Australian people is an outrageous piece of racism in itself.

Crime happens everywhere, become street smart, stop whining and get on with your lives.

I'm an Aussie and I would get mugged if I was doing the same things or living in the same low rent areas - It's not rocket science. You think I could get away with building a 2 level villa in the slum lands of Delhi and expect no crime to be committed against me just because I chose to live there based on cheap rent and am bring money into the country elsewhere as a foreign student?

It would be very interesting to find out if the main pot stirrers were ever refused entry to Aussie university's or for immigration purposes as this all feels like a troll vendetta.

On ksl's side am a little surprised as thought better of you, but the genetics issue is flawed and is in its self point blank racism that society (across all nations) has been trying to wipe out for decades now. If it was true then having so many Aussies in Singapore would increase the crime rate here and since a lot of them hang around Holland Village we had better up the local police presence with riot squad, tear gas launchers at the ready and chase dogs.

The majority of Australia is relatively safe and if you look at where these crimes have occurred and are occurring it is in the cheaper rent poorer areas of Melbourne. A hypothesis on this would be that these students are living in these areas to save money and these areas by their socioeconomic nature have a higher rate of crime than elsewhere, as such the rate of crimes against Indians would appear higher than for other races that have enough sense not to move into a slum when they migrate/stay in another country.

Funny how some cover their own mistakes (and it is their own mistakes that are putting them at risk) by shoving it at others. Perhaps we should just clean up all the riff raff in the cheaper rent areas and dump them in someone else high rent area or better still, ship them of to a third world country where they won't affect the crime statistics. That way they could enjoy safety and low cost of living all at once.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 18 Mar 2010 7:12 am

Word! =D>


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