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Employment Pass Rejected

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ashok.byahut
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Postby ashok.byahut » Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:17 pm

thanks somesh.

My case is exactly similar to yours. My EP process is handled by third party and then are suggesting not to meet the MOM officials now. I will request them once again.

They are making the recommendation letter with the help of HR and appealing the reject along with my experience letters. I believe they are appealing online.

When was EP approved? If you don't mind, can you please share your contact number. my mail-id is ashok.byahut@gmail.com.

Thanks

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 1:17 am

ashok.byahut wrote:thanks somesh.

My case is exactly similar to yours. My EP process is handled by third party and then are suggesting not to meet the MOM officials now. I will request them once again.

They are making the recommendation letter with the help of HR and appealing the reject along with my experience letters. I believe they are appealing online.

When was EP approved? If you don't mind, can you please share your contact number. my mail-id is ashok.byahut@gmail.com.

Thanks
I would expect the failure rate to be very high through the online application, they do need your original documents!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 6:54 am

ksl wrote:
I would expect the failure rate to be very high through the online application, they do need your original documents!


When is the last time you filed for an EP?
Last edited by sundaymorningstaple on Tue, 12 Jan 2010 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 8:36 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I would expect the failure rate to be very high through the online application, they do need your original documents!


No need to file for EP! Though commonsense does indicate that they need original documents.
Until then, I wasnt told of the reason. But when I met him, he indirectly indicated that they had some prob with my MBA transcript. I showed him the original, he kept photocopies and my EP was approved in 7 days.
and if the HR is doing the appeal also online, without supplying original documents or refrences, then it speaks for itself, there will be a high rejection rate. with suspect copies sent. When did you last bang your head on the wall? :P Oh it's 6'45 a.m wakey wakey

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 9:15 am

ksl wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:I would expect the failure rate to be very high through the online application, they do need your original documents!


No need to file for EP! Though commonsense does indicate that they need original documents.
Until then, I wasnt told of the reason. But when I met him, he indirectly indicated that they had some prob with my MBA transcript. I showed him the original, he kept photocopies and my EP was approved in 7 days.
and if the HR is doing the appeal also online, without supplying original documents or refrences, then it speaks for itself, there will be a high rejection rate. with suspect copies sent. When did you last bang your head on the wall? :P Oh it's 6'45 a.m wakey wakey


For your information, the approval rate for online submissions, for those who 'actually' qualify and have used the online assessment tool 'honestly' is quite high. It's those coming from 3rd world countries with dodgy docs that have the high rejection rate but usually because a high percentage of them try to 'create' applications that will pass. This is what the MOM is cracking down on. Singaporean don't really have a problem with 'foreign expats' from western countries as they know they don't want Singaporean jobs anyway. But it the other Asian economic migrants that they are aggravated with, especially the ones who tend to 'create' what is needed. Hopefully they catch all of them and ship their butts back home so this country can get back to normal. (I lost several, as noted, early last year, after having been on S passes for 6 months, due to bad docs. So that just goes to show, even AFTER you get your employment pass, you still aren't necessarily safe.

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chiroy
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Postby chiroy » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:40 am

The company that hires me also applied my EP online. It got approved in 10 days (as I think I said in some other thread). I must translate the documents to english and have them certified/legalized, which I then submit to MOM. But MOM itself never asked me for the originals.

FYI, I come from a neighbouring country but I dont think bogus documents are our country's exports :)

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Postby nakatago » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 10:57 am

chiroy wrote:The company that hires me also applied my EP online. It got approved in 10 days (as I think I said in some other thread). I must translate the documents to english and have them certified/legalized, which I then submit to MOM. But MOM itself never asked me for the originals.


i'm not 100% sure but you having done that removed doubts of your qualifications. if you're from a country known for people that produces dodgy documents, the burden of proof is on you, not MOM. you took the extra step of assuring them that you're telling the truth and basically made life easier for MOM. :)

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chiroy
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Postby chiroy » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:22 am

nakatago wrote:i'm not 100% sure but you having done that removed doubts of your qualifications. if you're from a country known for people that produces dodgy documents, the burden of proof is on you, not MOM. you took the extra step of assuring them that you're telling the truth and basically made life easier for MOM. :)


By "done that" you meant me having the docs legalized?

Actually, the IPA states I must have legalized english translations as the docs are not in English, as well as present the originals. But in the end, they dont even ask for the originals.

I was referring to SMS who said that online applications for applicants from "honest" countries do usually get approved. And my experience confirmed that, as I said, my country is fortunately not known for fake docs. (of course, there are always some exceptions)

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Postby x9200 » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 11:50 am

chiroy wrote:And my experience confirmed that, as I said, my country is fortunately not known for fake docs. (of course, there are always some exceptions)

Your experience confirmed that it worked out painlessly in your case but how do you actually know your country is not know to MOM to be as said? I guess this is rather based on MOM internal records/experience than common opinions.

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chiroy
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Postby chiroy » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 12:00 pm

x9200 wrote:Your experience confirmed that it worked out painlessly in your case but how do you actually know your country is not know to MOM to be as said? I guess this is rather based on MOM internal records/experience than common opinions.


Of course I cannot know for sure how the MOM is seeing the country.
I meant that my country is generally not known for that (in the public). We have enough other bad things that we are known for.

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Postby nakatago » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 1:26 pm

chiroy wrote:
nakatago wrote:i'm not 100% sure but you having done that removed doubts of your qualifications. if you're from a country known for people that produces dodgy documents, the burden of proof is on you, not MOM. you took the extra step of assuring them that you're telling the truth and basically made life easier for MOM. :)


By "done that" you meant me having the docs legalized?

Actually, the IPA states I must have legalized english translations as the docs are not in English, as well as present the originals. But in the end, they dont even ask for the originals.

I was referring to SMS who said that online applications for applicants from "honest" countries do usually get approved. And my experience confirmed that, as I said, my country is fortunately not known for fake docs. (of course, there are always some exceptions)


* well, some people cannot follow instructions. submitting forged docs compounds the problem. too bad for the honest ones who end up as collateral damage.

* you did say you're from a neighboring country (me too). let's face it and we may not like it but "western" countries are held in a different light than ours. (on a personal note, some people from my country do use fake docs but mine were legit, my personal info is consistent with my claims and i followed instructions so they didn't ask for originals either)

* in any case, taking steps to remove doubt may help an applicant's pending approval.

8-)

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Postby ksl » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 1:53 pm

For your information, the approval rate for online submissions, for those who 'actually' qualify and have used the online assessment tool 'honestly' is quite high
That was before september!
Even on DP the first couple of years, my wife had to produce all original documentation for me and herself even though they have everything on record and that's just for the DP.

I just don't see how an EP holder can avoid not producing original documents at the desk before picking up their EP, it is against procedure, because i did ask why they need originals when we have already produced them the previous year for my DP.

I really don't believe any country gets priority of not producing original documenation when needed, and if it is not legalised copies, a rejection would be the procedure no matter which country. SOP's are SOP's and if any have escaped the systematic procedure it may indicate a flaw.

So even if the originals may not be required for the electronic application, I'll bet 100$ the procedure is to hand over the originals for inspection on collection, also with more copies.

My point is from a commonsense point of view, you must take into account all the negative risks, of rejection and why it maybe rejected on lack of detail and ensure that all information is legalised as possible.

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chiroy
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Postby chiroy » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 2:03 pm

ksl wrote:I just don't see how an EP holder can avoid not producing original documents at the desk before picking up their EP, it is against procedure, because i did ask why they need originals when we have already produced them the previous year for my DP.

I really don't believe any country gets priority of not producing original documenation when needed, and if it is not legalised copies, a rejection would be the procedure no matter which country. SOP's are SOP's and if any have escaped the systematic procedure it may indicate a flaw.

So even if the originals may not be required for the electronic application, I'll bet 100$ the procedure is to hand over the originals for inspection on collection, also with more copies.


The applicant himself cannot avoid producing the original. The IPA also states that originals must be presented. And of course no country is given priority as to not required to present the originals. But in reality, some countries do get more attention than others. Maybe due to previous statistical experiences, maybe due to other reasons, we dont know that for sure.

In my case, I had the originals with me as I registered with MOM, but they are satisfied with the legalized copy and translation.

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Postby guruvishwanath » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 3:53 pm

Foreword: Apart from SMS and a couple of others, I dont think there are many on the forum who have had experience on EP. Personally, I have had 3 EP's and 1 Temp EP (yes, there were these too circa 1996). :-) Before I applied for PR. So dont slam, flame, accuse, defame or swing at me.! :-))

In general, EP's are granted irrespective of your nationality (at a glance). The fundamental considerations are education, company that is applying on your behalf, your salary. Second considerations are what do you bring to the table? Your perceived contribution to the society (namely tax at the highest order). And then also comes the fact of your status. Married? Kids? While not apparent, your nationality does play a minor role. But not likely a factor in rejection. Looking at it from this side of the table, there will not seem any logic for rejection. And as always, there is never a reason given for rejection. Each application is reviewed by officers who rely on a combination of judgement and information in front of them to make a decision. Which is why there is a system of appeal for rejected EP's to be considered. Else, you would have to fly out within 14 days of your rejection. During such an interview either with the HR or the candidate will clear out any lingering queries they may have.

This is very straight forward without any flim-flams. I will tell you why I am saying so. There was a time when I was a candidate for rejection 13 years ago because I had changed firms in Singapore. Believe me when I say, the rules for EP were heck of a lot different than today. There were no P1/P2 etc. It was just EP. And the process and system took the effort to determine my candidacy instead of outright rejecting and not entertaining my appeal or rather my companies appeal. Oh! here's the kicker. I was working for a very small local IT company. And not a BIG huge firm.

Unless your documentation is being suspected of being dodgy, there wont be a challenge to your application. An appeal, the first time, is more like a clarification of any queries MOM might have on your application. And if they do realize fraud, then they will inform your nation's consular office and finally let the law loose on you. (Check news last year or the year before where someone was jailed for fraud qualifications). And of course, there is the trend of your companies track record.

In the early days of the IT outsourcing boom, I am referring to all those consultants who used to join a company for overseas assignments (I myself being one such person who came to Singapore instead of going US as many of my compatriots did), there was a percentage of fraud being perpetrated but not by the candidate. For e.g. companies used to get you overseas but "bench" you until an assignment was found. Of course, this was more the norm in the US of A than Singapore. But there were cases of such instances where the candidate was not on an EP but a SVP (again, SVP was given for a stay of 6 months and less). As the industry and technology, evolved so did the companies in how they bring in resources. Today we dont have such many instances of technology workers being manipulated due to better oversight and trend spotting analysis by the manpower ministry.

Finally, have faith in the system. After 14 years in Singapore, despite my initial hiccups, I have thrived, enjoyed and living a very good life. And I dont have any regrets of NOT going to US of A in 1998 (which on a hindsight was the best decision I ever made because in 1999 that company went belly up). :-)

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Postby ksl » Tue, 12 Jan 2010 8:55 pm

Good post Guru! Like SMS also said before there are professional HR and there are amateur ones that may be at fault too! Hang in there!


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