Singapore Expats Forum

The dreaded employment pass issue…………..

Discuss about getting a well paid job or career advancement. Ask about salaries, expat packages, CPF & taxes for expatriate.

User avatar
ksl
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Postby ksl » Wed, 21 Oct 2009 5:22 pm

Think my salary will be about $3'000-4000 a month, so I guess I'm a Q1?


Mike I think your field of experience in a niche area, should be valued with what you already know of Asian companies, so do not undervalue yourself just to get the position, when you can use your experience to produce them very significant results over long term.

Singapore can be very expensive as an expatriate, socialising with expats in western style pubs bars, and restaurants, so if you have agreed 3 to 4k, I would squeeze them for accommodation allowance. or the P1 EP, certainly makes life more enjoyable

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:48 pm

aargon wrote:Mike

If there is any remote possibility of you not getting your visa, then I would certainly refrain from handing in your notice until its confirmed.

I recently accepted an offer in Singapore, signed the contract and returned to my potential employer. My first reasonable thought was not to hand in my resignation until I had confirmed there was no issue with my EP. Similar to some of your statements, my concern was not having things like my university degree certificates etc to prove my background.

In the end it all worked out fine, and I was issued the EP within a week, but seriously, if you`re not 100% sure regarding the visa issue, then I would tell this to your prospective employer, and if they are reasonable people, then it shouldnt be a problem for them to wait a little longer if they are requiring your services urgently.

Good luck. :)


Aargon

I have to admit, I've never applied for a work visa in my life, so have no real idea what goes on. Or how long it takes.

Speaking to Mr. S, the HR director, he's informed me that on the basis that I have a recognised degree, and have 4 years experience in the field, I won't have any problems. He seemed to imply that it would be pretty straightforward.

However, I also know that sometimes there are issues with "employer need" and hiring locals, and things like that. But at the same time, if the companies telling me this won't be a problem, I guess I'll just have to share their opinion on this.

They're a pretty big company, with offices all over the world, with expats already on the payroll, so I'm guessing they know what they are talking about.


Personally, I don't envisage visa issues at all. The guy I've been speaking to is very open, responsible, and knowledgable on the subjet. If they say it will be fine, I believe them.

Just airing on the side of caution I guess.

Anyway, my only concern is the fact that they've made it pretty clear that they want me there within the next 7 weeks.

Haven't even had the contract yet. Have to give my company 4 weeks notice. So, they'll have to sort out the visa within a few weeks.

I won't hand in notice without a visa. The markets dead in the UK. I'd struggle to even get my own job back if it went wrong. They'd probably make me redundant if they could afford it.

take care

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Wed, 21 Oct 2009 11:52 pm

jpatokal wrote:Just FYI, EP can be applied for up to three months before your arrival, and having the In-Principle Approval letter is in no way binding on you. So it would make a lot of sense to get the EP application process going ASAP and only hand in your notice once you've gotten your IPA.



Can I do this, pro-actively? I was under the impression (reading the online forms) that it's an HR job for them.

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:08 am

ksl wrote:
Think my salary will be about $3'000-4000 a month, so I guess I'm a Q1?


Mike I think your field of experience in a niche area, should be valued with what you already know of Asian companies, so do not undervalue yourself just to get the position, when you can use your experience to produce them very significant results over long term.

Singapore can be very expensive as an expatriate, socialising with expats in western style pubs bars, and restaurants, so if you have agreed 3 to 4k, I would squeeze them for accommodation allowance. or the P1 EP, certainly makes life more enjoyable


KSL
.

I'm a bit concious about pushing them too far.

When I met the chairman,it was a fine line between selling myself, and offending him and his company. On the basis that things he was discussing as being new developments- we'd been doing for 7 years already.

He was telling me that there is beggining to "be a trend towards online publication over print so we may divert more revenue to that".

The trend isn't beggining. It isn't even a trend. It's a fact. We've been ploughing everything into web publishing for at least 5 years. You know, our print readership is 5'000 a month. Our online web hits is 5 million. Paper costs 30% of your turnover. Web costs about 2%.

Things like that.

I'm trying to be as humble as possible. I think if I go in demanding things, and telling them how it is, I may seem like I'm more bother than it's worth.

Bird in the hand, and all that. Just get the job first.

Don't worry. If I get over there, and realise I'm of some value, I'll work on the things you suggest within months.

You know, it's not really a huge perk to work in Singapore for me. Just an experience.

I'd happily just move to whatever company offered me the best deal, in Asia, if it went well.

Use my cousin as a template. He works in Japan. He's left and rejoined the same company about 3 times! Every time he goes back, they give him more






You see, he's big news

User avatar
Addadude
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri, 26 May 2006
Location: Darkest Telok Blangah
Contact:

Postby Addadude » Thu, 22 Oct 2009 2:28 pm

Mike, I have to say that I am getting a serious case of deja vu reading all this. 16 years ago I went through almost exactly the same process you are going through now, albeit for an entirely different industry. I too was interviewed in London by the Singaporean chairman of a group of companies involved, in this case, in the advertising industry. (He used to travel to London regularly to see his daughter who was studying in Bath. Because also combined these trips with interviewing for expatriate staff, he could put them through his company as business travel.)

I've been in Singapore ever since - but certainly not with the same company. Let me throw a few thoughts your way for consideration.

First of all, as KSL said, the money is not great. You WILL find it very hard to make ends meet on that salary. Even 16 years ago I was offered more money than you are being offered now and I found things to be VERY expensive here. Earning $3-4k a month means you will at best be renting a room, paying up to $1k a month for that privilege. Utilities (assuming they are shared) will be another say $50. Local food is relatively cheap but you will be spending a minimum of $10 - $15 a day on that. Western-style food will be considerably more. Transport (bus/MRT - Singapore's version of the Tube) will cost you around $15 a week. A simple half pint of beer will cost you around $10 in a non-city centre pub. Forget about saving! If you were a young guy in his mid to late twenties, I'd say go for it for the experience. At your current age, I'd strongly advise you to bargain for much more money.

Which brings me to my second point: don't expect to be able to renegotiate your remuneration package 'after you've proven your worth'. It won't happen. At best, your boss will stick to what was agreed in your written letter of employment and won't pay you a cent more. At worst, he'll try and weasel out of it and pay you even less. Bargain HARD now for what you think you're worth and, above all, get all that you agreed IN WRITING.

Third point, don't be surprised when the charming, Western-oriented, slightly self depreciating and humble individual that interviewed you in London transforms into a loud, demanding, humorless and downright slave-driving tyrant in your new workplace.

Fourth point, SMS is spot on. As the token ' company ang moh', you will be proudly displayed to all and sundry as proof of your boss' success. Congratulations on becoming a status symbol!

Fifth point, I'm not sure about your motivations for coming here. If, as you said, Asia is far behind the West when it comes to scientific publishing, I am really not sure what good it will do your mid-to-long term career. It sounds almost the same as a Premier League player moving to Singapore to play in the S League! In other words - a serious step backwards! Perhaps you have visions of establishing yourself as the leading individual in your field in Asia... Good luck on that - but bear in mind that in all probability, your new boss will have other ideas!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
"Both politicians and nappies need to be changed regularly, and for the same reasons."

User avatar
ksl
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Postby ksl » Thu, 22 Oct 2009 5:02 pm

The trend isn't beggining. It isn't even a trend. It's a fact. We've been ploughing everything into web publishing for at least 5 years. You know, our print readership is 5'000 a month. Our online web hits is 5 million. Paper costs 30% of your turnover. Web costs about 2%.


Addadude explains it well!

Though i would also like to point out that Singapore is light years away from using credit cards on the web, it may well be a well developed Country within 40 years, but one shouldn't expect the population to change so quickly away from their trading habits of bargaining, which they are quite expert in their own fields, they will take you for every penny, that is a the business philosophy, purely business.

What you want and need is a win win situation not to be tied up by the goolies! Your Singaporean boss is born to negotiate it's a talent that most older Asian's have been born with and westerners acquire through experiences.

Though it's highly unlikely you can generate revenue in Singapore through the internet. Ebay is also one of the big boys, that I believe fails in Singapore. Though building a readership is much easier online if it's free and is great for exposure, not revenue in my opinion. So your approach needs to be evaluated on your cultural knowledge, instigating change is a long term commitment, here they like hard copy and are not trustworthy of the online system, banks maybe at fault, in the credit card liabilities offered.

The security risks here in Singapore are very limited, not like in Europe.

Their are certain restrictions that come with EP I believe, maybe SMS can enlighten you further....I would suggest laying down your minimum financial requirements to be here, if its an experience you are looking for, what you need to live comfortably and happy with. Remember that Singaporeans are subsidised here, and you are not.

Example a visit to hospital consultation cost me 90$ plus purchase of medicine, because of heart condition my medicine sets me bag almost 250$ a month, without the consultation fees.

You must take into account the worst scenario in case of emergencies, cutting your paycheck to suit the devil, makes you a prime candidate, your future employer knows this! You do not know what to expect in Singapore. think carefully and good luck!

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Fri, 23 Oct 2009 12:54 am

Addadude wrote:Mike, I have to say that I am getting a serious case of deja vu reading all this. 16 years ago I went through almost exactly the same process you are going through now, albeit for an entirely different industry. I too was interviewed in London by the Singaporean chairman of a group of companies involved, in this case, in the advertising industry. (He used to travel to London regularly to see his daughter who was studying in Bath. Because also combined these trips with interviewing for expatriate staff, he could put them through his company as business travel.)

I've been in Singapore ever since - but certainly not with the same company. Let me throw a few thoughts your way for consideration.

First of all, as KSL said, the money is not great. You WILL find it very hard to make ends meet on that salary. Even 16 years ago I was offered more money than you are being offered now and I found things to be VERY expensive here. Earning $3-4k a month means you will at best be renting a room, paying up to $1k a month for that privilege. Utilities (assuming they are shared) will be another say $50. Local food is relatively cheap but you will be spending a minimum of $10 - $15 a day on that. Western-style food will be considerably more. Transport (bus/MRT - Singapore's version of the Tube) will cost you around $15 a week. A simple half pint of beer will cost you around $10 in a non-city centre pub. Forget about saving! If you were a young guy in his mid to late twenties, I'd say go for it for the experience. At your current age, I'd strongly advise you to bargain for much more money.

Which brings me to my second point: don't expect to be able to renegotiate your remuneration package 'after you've proven your worth'. It won't happen. At best, your boss will stick to what was agreed in your written letter of employment and won't pay you a cent more. At worst, he'll try and weasel out of it and pay you even less. Bargain HARD now for what you think you're worth and, above all, get all that you agreed IN WRITING.

Third point, don't be surprised when the charming, Western-oriented, slightly self depreciating and humble individual that interviewed you in London transforms into a loud, demanding, humorless and downright slave-driving tyrant in your new workplace.

Fourth point, SMS is spot on. As the token ' company ang moh', you will be proudly displayed to all and sundry as proof of your boss' success. Congratulations on becoming a status symbol!

Fifth point, I'm not sure about your motivations for coming here. If, as you said, Asia is far behind the West when it comes to scientific publishing, I am really not sure what good it will do your mid-to-long term career. It sounds almost the same as a Premier League player moving to Singapore to play in the S League! In other words - a serious step backwards! Perhaps you have visions of establishing yourself as the leading individual in your field in Asia... Good luck on that - but bear in mind that in all probability, your new boss will have other ideas!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.



Thanks for the message. It was very helpful.

Chairman - they have a UK office - I say office, it's more just a bookshop - and he was over checking up on things. They originally wanted me to go over - I didn't want to - so they said I could meet him in London - which I did.

Money - emmm, I kind of agree, it's maybe a tad low. But I don't really plan to be here for a ever. .

Rent - I won't be paying any. Well next to nothing. Which makes it an affordable move to be honest. A friend of mine owns a spare property/condo in the area, that he has offered to me as a long standing return on a favour I did for him over here.

Money - you're probably right. I haven't even had an official offer yet, but I'll say what they put down in writing. There is room for negociation to be honest. They've hinted at relocation packages, and expat deals.

Tyrants - yes, I've heard that a few times. A friend of mine's a local, and has warned me about the work culture. To be honest, I'm in the office in the UK at 9pm at night sometimes, so I'm about as ready as anyone I guess.

Status symbol - I think you are right. I have heard a few times now that a few white employees is seen as an local company being succesful. I've already been briefed about the fact that I'll be asked to travel, and attend meetings and conferences. Translated - EVERY conference in Asia no doubts.

Motivation - career wise, it's a big step down. Kind of like leaving Apple in silicon valley, USA, and going to work for PC World in Dagenam. China/Japan are at the bottom of the pile in the industry and field. Singapore are maybe 10 places under that - the bottom of the reguional pile.

I'm quite confident about my role in the UK - outside of recession, I could get my current sort of job pretty easily, with about 50 different companies.

I just see it as a 24 month experience. See a bit of Australia, Japan, China, Singapore, Malaysia in my spare time. Plus - I haven't mentioned it, but I actually have to spend a month in the region in August next year anyway. Something that will prove very difficult with my current job (I can only take 2 weeks off at a time - no negociating). So it's a decent solution.

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Fri, 23 Oct 2009 1:36 am

Addadude wrote:Mike, I have to say that I am getting a serious case of deja vu reading all this. 16 years ago I went through almost exactly the same process you are going through now, albeit for an entirely different industry. I too was interviewed in London by the Singaporean chairman of a group of companies involved, in this case, in the advertising industry. (He used to travel to London regularly to see his daughter who was studying in Bath. Because also combined these trips with interviewing for expatriate staff, he could put them through his company as business travel.)

I've been in Singapore ever since - but certainly not with the same company. Let me throw a few thoughts your way for consideration.

First of all, as KSL said, the money is not great. You WILL find it very hard to make ends meet on that salary. Even 16 years ago I was offered more money than you are being offered now and I found things to be VERY expensive here. Earning $3-4k a month means you will at best be renting a room, paying up to $1k a month for that privilege. Utilities (assuming they are shared) will be another say $50. Local food is relatively cheap but you will be spending a minimum of $10 - $15 a day on that. Western-style food will be considerably more. Transport (bus/MRT - Singapore's version of the Tube) will cost you around $15 a week. A simple half pint of beer will cost you around $10 in a non-city centre pub. Forget about saving! If you were a young guy in his mid to late twenties, I'd say go for it for the experience. At your current age, I'd strongly advise you to bargain for much more money.

Which brings me to my second point: don't expect to be able to renegotiate your remuneration package 'after you've proven your worth'. It won't happen. At best, your boss will stick to what was agreed in your written letter of employment and won't pay you a cent more. At worst, he'll try and weasel out of it and pay you even less. Bargain HARD now for what you think you're worth and, above all, get all that you agreed IN WRITING.

Third point, don't be surprised when the charming, Western-oriented, slightly self depreciating and humble individual that interviewed you in London transforms into a loud, demanding, humorless and downright slave-driving tyrant in your new workplace.

Fourth point, SMS is spot on. As the token ' company ang moh', you will be proudly displayed to all and sundry as proof of your boss' success. Congratulations on becoming a status symbol!

Fifth point, I'm not sure about your motivations for coming here. If, as you said, Asia is far behind the West when it comes to scientific publishing, I am really not sure what good it will do your mid-to-long term career. It sounds almost the same as a Premier League player moving to Singapore to play in the S League! In other words - a serious step backwards! Perhaps you have visions of establishing yourself as the leading individual in your field in Asia... Good luck on that - but bear in mind that in all probability, your new boss will have other ideas!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.


I was showing a more senior colleague the information they sent me on the company, and how they are working at the minute. His exact words were:


User avatar
Addadude
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri, 26 May 2006
Location: Darkest Telok Blangah
Contact:

Postby Addadude » Fri, 23 Oct 2009 8:50 am

Can't advise about NHS matters I'm afraid. But I will say that medical services in Singapore are generally pretty good and surprisingly affordable.

I frankly know nothing about scientific publishing but I do know that internet usage in Singapore is beyond commonplace. The Singapore government has a policy about getting a computer into every home and they've been pretty successful in that regards. If you think the UK is wired up, I think you'll be even more impressed by Singapore. Even in the smaller primary schools here kids are building their own websites as part of their curriculum. So perhaps your prospective boss wants to leverage on your experience in this area to give his business a (relative) advantage in this marketplace.

Regardless of your situation as it pertains to accommodation, I still don't think it would be a good idea for you to work for such a relatively low amount. It WILL curtail any plans you might have for regional travel. Don't rely on 'hints' or 'considerations' for various expat perks and/or allowances: get 'em in writing before you commit.

Good luck with whatever you do.
"Both politicians and nappies need to be changed regularly, and for the same reasons."

User avatar
jpatokal
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3014
Joined: Tue, 09 Dec 2003
Location: Terra Australis Incognita

Postby jpatokal » Fri, 23 Oct 2009 11:05 pm

Mike_Naylor wrote:Can I do this, pro-actively? I was under the impression (reading the online forms) that it's an HR job for them.


That's right, the company has to apply on your behalf, so you just need to make it clear that you're not going to be able to hand in your notice until the IPA has been granted.

Also, I'd strongly suggest that you fill out the paper EP application form yourself and send it to their HR to copy into the online system, since they'll more likely than not stuff it up if they try to do themselves.

http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal ... apply.html

Re: the odds of you getting a visa, until recently I would have figured you'd be a shoo-in thanks to your degree and experience... but with the recent tightening, it's a bit of coin toss. My gut feel is that you have a pretty good shot though, just make sure your university and job title are spelled in precisely the same way as MOM's official lists, esp. if you can squeeze into the Strategic Skills List.
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

Deetz
Member
Member
Posts: 27
Joined: Sat, 05 Sep 2009

Postby Deetz » Sat, 24 Oct 2009 3:22 pm

Addadude wrote:First of all, as KSL said, the money is not great. You WILL find it very hard to make ends meet on that salary. Even 16 years ago I was offered more money than you are being offered now and I found things to be VERY expensive here. Earning $3-4k a month means you will at best be renting a room, paying up to $1k a month for that privilege. Utilities (assuming they are shared) will be another say $50. Local food is relatively cheap but you will be spending a minimum of $10 - $15 a day on that. Western-style food will be considerably more. Transport (bus/MRT - Singapore's version of the Tube) will cost you around $15 a week. A simple half pint of beer will cost you around $10 in a non-city centre pub. Forget about saving! If you were a young guy in his mid to late twenties, I'd say go for it for the experience. At your current age, I'd strongly advise you to bargain for much more money.
Definitely spot on figures and advice about making sure you negotiate up front and don't expect them to bump things once you prove yourself.

Adding up all your monthly costs I get a total of $1560 for 3 square meals a day, food, rent and transit. If he were to get $4,000 a month he still has at least in my opinion a lot of money left over to play with or save.

morenangpinay
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 890
Joined: Mon, 02 Mar 2009

Postby morenangpinay » Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:30 am

you know why are you even considering it if its a move down?i can understand if its for experience but as a career choice, its not going to do you any good. if you are already working in as you say the top in the industry, why do you want to move to something less?i have to agree, it looks like from your experience, the salary they are going to give you doesnt compensate.

plus, you cant really depend on your friend's help for long.

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:20 pm

jpatokal wrote:
Mike_Naylor wrote:Can I do this, pro-actively? I was under the impression (reading the online forms) that it's an HR job for them.


That's right, the company has to apply on your behalf, so you just need to make it clear that you're not going to be able to hand in your notice until the IPA has been granted.

Also, I'd strongly suggest that you fill out the paper EP application form yourself and send it to their HR to copy into the online system, since they'll more likely than not stuff it up if they try to do themselves.

http://www.mom.gov.sg/publish/momportal ... apply.html

Re: the odds of you getting a visa, until recently I would have figured you'd be a shoo-in thanks to your degree and experience... but with the recent tightening, it's a bit of coin toss. My gut feel is that you have a pretty good shot though, just make sure your university and job title are spelled in precisely the same way as MOM's official lists, esp. if you can squeeze into the Strategic Skills List.



Yes, I’m in agreement on the visa thing. The messages I’ve got from the company, are that it will be no problem, but at the same time, I really can’t see it being that simple.

I guess my only advantage is the fact that it’s hardly a burgeoning market at the minute over there. In fact it’s a market that needs a lot of help, and lags behind the rest of the world. Plus, expat numbers, in Singapore, for this sort of thing. I’d be amazed if there were even 50 westerners in the entire country, working in this sort of job. You know, everyones trying to get into Europe and the USA. Not Asia. The impression I’ve gotten is that they were a bit shocked that I applied!

Not really sure that the MOM take any of that into account! But, maybe they are less likely to turn applications down in industries where they hardly get any?

As for success/failure. If I fail, I fail. But at the same time, I’ve shown that I can get a lot of interest from over there. And I will maybe give the economy a year to pick up, and maybe try again in 2010/2011.

Mike_Naylor
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon, 19 Oct 2009

Postby Mike_Naylor » Tue, 27 Oct 2009 10:35 pm

morenangpinay wrote:you know why are you even considering it if its a move down?i can understand if its for experience but as a career choice, its not going to do you any good. if you are already working in as you say the top in the industry, why do you want to move to something less?i have to agree, it looks like from your experience, the salary they are going to give you doesnt compensate.

plus, you cant really depend on your friend's help for long.


It’s not a step down, job role wise to be honest. It’s a step up. At the minute I manage and develop journals, but I work under numerous managers, editorial boards. In truth, I do little more than implement their decisions, and keep things going in the right direction.

This is quite a bit more responsibility, in regards to development and direction. Not only will I be managing articles, but I will also be commissioning them – which is a huge thing for me. As you’re actually deciding the content they publish and the direction they take.

A lot of people want to work on big journals, with big name publishers, and big name editorial boards. They are all in the UK and the USA. That’s the only step down. The fact that the journal’s reputation is poor.

In regards to my job, and career, it’s a step up. It could open a lot of doors, in both Asia and back here in blighty.

User avatar
ksl
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Postby ksl » Wed, 28 Oct 2009 12:18 am

The messages I’ve got from the company, are that it will be no problem, but at the same time, I really can’t see it being that simple.


It's up to the company to prove, that you have, what Singapore does not have, and that is very simple, a connection and ability to take the industry to another level considering Europe and US are in the lead. Either way i still believe you should negotiate a production bonus or royalty based on your performance skills. That is to say in the event the company revenue increases based on your productive skills, you are paid a re-occurring royalty on contracts you make, if any. That way you cover your backside, for working on a low base. I only work on my own productive results, so i know what i am talking about, all my contacts are valuable to different industries.

Singapore is only good at copying other companies around the world, they lack creative skills

It's home and dry, if you are specialised in your field, the company or HR must convince MOM you are indispensable for progress. This lies in your knowledge and experience, more than anything academic.....
You can see what academic bureaucracy is like, by the tightening of passes and registration of Companies under MOM....I total flop in my book, only an idiot could come out with legislation like that, though it is a knee jerk reaction to all the agencies/companies that have been abusing the system.

To meet those requirements only people dealing with volume capacity and business experience may be able to meet the requirements, I doubt new talent would have much of a chance unless they was in manufacturing or large distribution.!

I should think you will be okay, though it is about how the company approach MOM so you may have to guide them in the application process :lol: (Joking I hope!).


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Careers & Jobs in Singapore”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests