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ditch PR to avoid NS? can you say "black listed"?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 6:49 am

Hopefully, ututu will never be given a PEP or PR as he does not deserve it. Nor does he want it as the NS issue is part and parcel to the PR. Therefore, He should move on to other pastures. The sooner the better.

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Postby ututu » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:14 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Hopefully, ututu will never be given a PEP or PR as he does not deserve it. Nor does he want it as the NS issue is part and parcel to the PR. Therefore, He should move on to other pastures. The sooner the better.


Too late for that it seems, had a PEP and now got a PR. And no, NS is not part of PRship, not legally as long as kid doesn't stay beyond age of 12.

If you argue NS being part of PR from moral stand point (not legal one), I don't see any coherent arguments for that. That's what amused me a bit: moralizing pontifications about how PR must be obliged to serve "not a nation, just a city". I'm certainly not going to rise up to defend low taxes and shopping malls or some other material possessions. And I don't see anything non-material that makes SG worth defending. The only argument I heard is from typical SGrean kiasu standpoint: I suffered therefore you must do as well, which is piece of junk as far as moral argument goes.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:18 am

ututu wrote:I just see little point in moralizing about NS here. NS means serving nation, and SG is certainly far from being a nation. If I remember right it's just a city.

So you are not aware the Singaporeans are the nation, and the only thing that keeps you here is the 8k yearly income difference. You would like to see your stay in SG only as a business relation (paying/earning/offering services) but at the same time you can not understand that undertaking PR is like an agreement that offers something but also asks something in return. And there is no place for loyalty in business relation.
Pity you'll probably be unwilling to print it on your business card.

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Postby ututu » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:18 am

Mad Scientist wrote:
ututu wrote:That time will come, don't you worry. I just see little point in moralizing about NS here. NS means serving nation, and SG is certainly far from being a nation. If I remember right it's just a city. (c) you know who.


Wrong again !! What gives you the right to state this ?


Speaking in front of an audience of over 160 people, comprising of diplomats, Members of Parliaments and academics, MM Lee went on to assess Singapore’s chances of becoming a true nation.

“If you believe it’s a reality, then I think you’re making a mistake. It’s an aspiration, it’s something we must make into reality probably in another 20,30, 40, 50 years.”

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:23 am

Like I said, the sooner you leave the better. You should not have taken up PR if you disagreed with the quid pro quo.

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Postby ututu » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:26 am

x9200 wrote:
ututu wrote:I just see little point in moralizing about NS here. NS means serving nation, and SG is certainly far from being a nation. If I remember right it's just a city.

So you are not aware the Singaporeans are the nation, and the only thing that keeps you here is the 8k yearly income difference. You would like to see your stay in SG only as a business relation (paying/earning/offering services) but at the same time you can not understand that undertaking PR is like an agreement that offers something but also asks something in return. And there is no place for loyalty in business relation.
Pity you'll probably be unwilling to print it on your business card.


Oh, I understand legal obligations quite well, what I don't understand how some on this board imply moral ones too. I can't see any case with accepting whatever case of moral obligations is being made.

BTW, considering my projects are all outside of Singapore, I can well put it on business card, it wouldn't make any difference. I might as well be in HK or Seoul or Bangkok, doesn't make much difference. It's just a multi variable equation puts SG slightly ahead. I was never attracted to SG for things that are outside of equations (like things that are written on US passport for example).

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:33 am

[quote="ututu"]At what stage would he consider Singapore a true “nation”

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 10:41 am

ututu wrote:Oh, I understand legal obligations quite well, what I don't understand how some on this board imply moral ones too. I can't see any case with accepting whatever case of moral obligations is being made.

You accepted an agreement you were not going to fulfil. Nothing immoral in it for you? If provable and on more general ground this would be nothing but a common fraud.

BTW, considering my projects are all outside of Singapore, I can well put it on business card, it wouldn't make any difference. I might as well be in HK or Seoul or Bangkok, doesn't make much difference.

Well, I guess it depends on your partners.

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Postby taxico » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 3:33 pm

[quote="ututu"]Speaking in front of an audience of over 160 people, comprising of diplomats, Members of Parliaments and academics, MM Lee went on to assess Singapore’s chances of becoming a true nation.

“If you believe it’s a reality, then I think you’re making a mistake. It’s an aspiration, it’s something we must make into reality probably in another 20,30, 40, 50 years.”
Aut viam ad caelum inveniam aut faciam

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 3:43 pm

Taxico mate, Let it go. His mind is already fixed. You are talking to a brick wall.
I see no point in continuing this conversation . I just hope when the time comes he will realize all the bad choices he has made. One thing I do know, this Gahmen really understand how to manipulate and control the guidelines to their advantage. Their tinkering of the guidelines is very done constantly.
Now, ututu will say I do not give a damn, just wait, and he will realize the mistakes he has done. You cannot have the best of both worlds and yet not wanting to contribute back to the society.
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby JayCee » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 4:03 pm

x9200 wrote:PR is for people who would like to stay here on permanent basis what should later lead to the citizenship. It isn't meant for some chip-s**t opportunists willing to abuse the system for their convenience only.


Not sure I agree with this first bit, isn't one of our own mods a long-term PR who never had any intention of taking up Singaporean citizenship?
I HAVE MASTERS!

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 4:38 pm

JayCee wrote:
x9200 wrote:PR is for people who would like to stay here on permanent basis what should later lead to the citizenship. It isn't meant for some chip-s**t opportunists willing to abuse the system for their convenience only.


Not sure I agree with this first bit, isn't one of our own mods a long-term PR who never had any intention of taking up Singaporean citizenship?

He will probably speak for himself but IIRC he got the same problem as majority of the Western type PRs including myself: giving up our original citizenship is not an option.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 5:17 pm

Spot on. Fer crissakes, I've already been here almost 30 years. If they would have left me have dual citizenship, would have been a no-brainer.

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Postby JayCee » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 5:44 pm

Why is renouncing the other citizenship out of the question for people from a western country but not for those from say China though? People are very fond of saying that the P in PR stands for Permanent, but if you're going to keep your other citizenship and plan on going home sometime in the future then that's not technically permanent either is it?

Where do you draw the line at who is abusing the system and who is a 'real' PR? 5 years, 10? Obviously SMS isn't abusing the system as he's been here a very long time, but it seems rather ridiculous IMO for those who have been a PR for say 3-5 years (and who got it quite easily then) to take the moral high ground with others when they themselves may end up moving on soon if circumstances change (another Asian financial crisis for example) and have no concrete commitment to Singapore by planning to become a citizen
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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 20 Jul 2011 6:20 pm

From my infos,
1. Abusers are those after approval of PR, immediately or soon after left for another country to gain work as opportunities arise.
2. Apply for PR for oneself and omitting family and child from application OR delay arrival of family to SG . This is trying to circumvent the NS guideline OR the intention of enjoying the education and health care system here
3. Not wanting to declare overseas income or asset and used SG as a back up plan
4. No intention to set up roots here
5. No income tax return submission
The list goes on.

Usually if you have your PR renewed for at least the third time, your REP is almost in the back pocket for years to come.
The first renewal and the second is the critical part
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!


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