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Constructive opinions needed: Mixed Marriages

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Re: Constructive opinions needed: Mixed Marriages

Postby dmk03 » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:34 pm

taxico wrote:like gymnasts who get more bendy over time with training, so does the leeway between a couple in a relationship.but certain things are less flexible than others. hence i advocate time for both to find out what they are.


I like the gymnasts metaphor, it fits real well to the whole idea of time & compromisation. :)

taxico wrote:if neither you nor your gentleman are in any real rush to get married right now, why bother with the whole religion shebang?


I totally agree with you! I understand that he really wants to start a family soon. I do want to but I'm concerned that his decision can be an impulsive one as it won't bring anyone any good later on. I've tried to rationalise things with him to take it slow as marriage is a big decision and commitment to take upon. To be realistic, any lady would want to start a family with a nice, great and responsible gentleman. But, this is not 1-2 years commitment, it's a lifelong commitment.

However, each time when we're out together, he will always raise the religion issue. Most of the time, it ended with a tension. I have run out with techniques to calm him and assuring him that I ain't meddling his heart. I mean; he can read how genuine I am through our conversations and those times we've spent. He seems to be thinking that I am this Asian girl who just wants to spend fun time together with a Caucasian guy and when he needs to leave Singapore, I'll just back off. That is so wrong!! (it's so against my nature & values!) If I am taking this lightly, I would not be in this forum, seeking for advices and do read-ups in the internet and from the libraries with the hope of understanding his concern and to better manage his worries.

He is also wondering why can't I date with Muslim guys instead. I've already discussed with him that I did date several before, many whom I've dated, I soon found out that either they're already attached, married and have idealistic expectation of a perfect Muslim lady. Well, I am not a perfect Muslim lady, so there's no connection I have with them. I'm not pious but I'm just a simple Muslim lady who carries out the basic necessities that a Muslim must do. E.g simple actions like, I don't club nor drink. For me, it's the sincerity one has in heart to fulfill it then it's a true faith towards a belief. Not just carrying it out as it's expected by the society or it's deemed respectable and deserving to be labelled as a true Muslim. :cry: Furthermore, the good Muslim guys mostly in Singapore would have already started a family of their own. Many of them married at their early or mid twenties. Malay/Muslim ladies of my age are really so rare to be found single. I really can't think of any ideas to convince him why I dated him for this long..not sure what's running in his head.

With regards to his idea of this cross-culture and cross-religion mentality, he somehow made me feel very conscious of my religion. As a matter of fact, a few days back, a Caucasian asked me out for a date and I've to practically remind him that I'm a Muslim as I do not want to despair him upon the meet up later on. However, I'm glad that he claimed he understood it as he saw my religion status in my profile.

Sorry if it got off track a little, I just feel like pouring out my feelings over this issue...

taxico wrote:you should never be too quick to sacrifice everything you've got... not yet, anyway. you'll want some wiggle room down the road.


Taxico, I must agree with you on this. I would say wise sacrifices to be made though after analysing the circumstances. :)
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Postby taxico » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 1:18 pm

as long as you're not spending his money (to excess?), i would not consider that idiot a gentleman.

you've been through one relationship and this one sounds like more work to me.

he needs to grow up or you should move on. did you say he was french?

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Postby dmk03 » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 4:05 pm

taxico wrote:as long as you're not spending his money (to excess?), i would not consider that idiot a gentleman.


I made a point to pay for myself. So, most of the times, I'd have him pay first and after we walked away from the counter, I insisted to pay as it's just my courtesy not to use his money. I don't wish to be labelled as gold diggers anyway as I'm surely not. Furthermore, I am financially independent. I explained to him the rational of my action; he's not yet my husband so it's not his responsiblity until he's serious about having me as his girlfriend then that money issue will naturally come to a consensus and by all means would then be his choice.

In fact, I did assure him that I hope my decision to pay for myself would not hurt his ego nor any intention to offend him. That was the reason why I made him pay first then sticking to my value and pay him after leaving the counter as I respect his ego of being a male able to provide for his lady even on dates. Of course, there are times that he really wanted to treat me and I would allow him to based on occasions like recently the National Day & his birthday.

taxico wrote:you've been through one relationship and this one sounds like more work to me. he needs to grow up or you should move on. did you say he was french?


Yes Taxico, after reading through the threads and conversing with him, had reflection sessions, I somehow foresee that there'll be more work if I take on this relationship. :cry: The issue is that; I don't want him to convert immediately or convert because of me, I am allowing him time to explore Islam if he wanted to. If he doesn't, there's no way I am forcing him as faith shouldn't be forced. He's not a French. He's a mix of German and English.
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Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 4:16 pm

For so many reasons I think you are wasting your time with this guy and are not painting a realistic picture for yourself because you just want to see it as workable.

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Postby dmk03 » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 6:13 pm

Hi Strong Eagle,

Strong Eagle wrote:...are not painting a realistic picture for yourself...


Do you mind elaborating on this?

Strong Eagle wrote:...because you just want to see it as workable.


Want to see it? Well, is this on the assumption that I've ample available time to spare on my hands? How on earth would I just want to see it , I want to find ways and methods to remedy the issue that both of us are facing.

Would like to hear from you more, Strong Eagle :)
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Postby taxico » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 6:39 pm

dmk03 wrote:Want to see it? Well, is this on the assumption that I've ample available time to spare on my hands? How on earth would I just want to see it , I want to find ways and methods to remedy the issue that both of us are facing.


i don't think he meant it the way you think... perhaps a simpler way would be you're blinded by your feelings and have been unable to see it for what it truly is.

if i had to nitpick:

he cannot start a family by himself. if he's in such urgency to start a family, perhaps he should start pandering to your needs and treating you better, especially since you're the one who's gonna be popping out newborns.

he would and should not be feeling sore over the whole religion thing. you have not kept it from him and he knows what needs to be done on his part, which you have put no expectations upon him. and why does he feel so insecure about himself?

anyhow, i can go on, but i won't. my thoughts are in my previous post. short of getting your male friend to jump into the discussion, i am compelled to agree with eagle's comments and will end here.

good luck with your all your future relationships!

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Postby Strong Eagle » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 9:40 pm

taxico wrote:
dmk03 wrote:Want to see it? Well, is this on the assumption that I've ample available time to spare on my hands? How on earth would I just want to see it , I want to find ways and methods to remedy the issue that both of us are facing.


i don't think he meant it the way you think... perhaps a simpler way would be you're blinded by your feelings and have been unable to see it for what it truly is.

if i had to nitpick:

he cannot start a family by himself. if he's in such urgency to start a family, perhaps he should start pandering to your needs and treating you better, especially since you're the one who's gonna be popping out newborns.

he would and should not be feeling sore over the whole religion thing. you have not kept it from him and he knows what needs to be done on his part, which you have put no expectations upon him. and why does he feel so insecure about himself?

anyhow, i can go on, but i won't. my thoughts are in my previous post. short of getting your male friend to jump into the discussion, i am compelled to agree with eagle's comments and will end here.

good luck with your all your future relationships!


dmk03,

What he said... plus a few other things.

Your quote,

"Well, I'm honest with him on the actions he may have to take on if he plans to have me as his life partner. As a matter of fact, I even openly discussed with him that I'm willing to allow ample time for him to explore my religion and if it's comfortable for him then do proceed with it as any faith of any religion in this world shouldn't be forced.


comes through loud and clear. You want him to convert to your religion (and I understand this as I have an acquaintance that has done exactly that). But, there are two problems. First, you cannot simply allow a mixed religion family, as a Buddhist and Christian might. He must convert... he must change... not you. And the second thing is that conversion to Islam is quite significant for an expat... quite a bit different on two levels at least.

You say

However, I was appalled by his reply: "You shouldn't be dating expats, you should be dating of your own religion." He put it across diplomatically yet his point was as sharp as a razor.


This seriously puts the point across. Although he speaks in generalities he is telling you loud and clear that he is not going to convert to your religion. If you won't give up yours, or at least violate its tenants by marrying a non Muslim, then this relationship is doomed.

And to close, you've not made mention once of what his religion is or how religious he is. I'd bet quite a decent amount of money that no matter what his religion is, he hasn't been inside a church/mosque/temple/shrine/synagogue/sweat lodge in quite some time.

This is the essence of why I say your relationship will never work... he will never convert... and taxico is right... what I am trying to is you are blinded by your feelings to the realities of the relationship.

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Postby dmk03 » Tue, 22 Sep 2009 12:21 am

Thank you Taxico and Strong Eagle for both of your invaluable closure.

'what I am trying to is you are blinded by your feelings to the realities of the relationship.' - I agree with you upon further reflection of my actions taken.

It has indeed been an enriching sharing all these while. Very open and direct comments also views were given.

Thank you again. Taking it all into strides in future!

:D
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Re: Constructive opinions needed: Mixed Marriages

Postby kaseyma » Tue, 22 Sep 2009 1:46 am

taxico wrote:
dmk03 wrote:I reckoned if the guys were willing to work it out with their ladies (plus having flexible parents), I believe their effort will be paid off.

...Love is sacrifice.


the flexibility does not just lie in the parents but also within a couple.

like gymnasts who get more bendy over time with training, so does the leeway between a couple in a relationship.

but certain things are less flexible than others. hence i advocate time for both to find out what they are.

if neither you nor your gentleman are in any real rush to get married right now, why bother with the whole religion shebang?

conversely, a gymnast becomes less bendy over time without practice. the same also applies to in a relationship.

all give and no take makes jack a disgruntled man.

you should never be too quick to sacrifice everything you've got... not yet, anyway. you'll want some wiggle room down the road.

Well said.

Had an Italian colleague that met a wonderful Malay lady.
He "converted" to Islam for their wedding.
Been married a long time.
Flexibility.
Accommodation.

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Postby irvine » Tue, 22 Sep 2009 3:06 pm

I guess conversion is a huge thing across the board.

dmk03, here's two scenarios I'd put to you:

1. If he converts, it may take time. He may do it out of love and respect for you. Or he may do it out of his love for the religion. This may take time, a long time, consider the current situation I'm reading now.

2. If he doesn't ever want to convert, but still loves you as who you are, and would like to elope with you to a place where a partnership of two religions can exist without scrutiny or offence. This may risk your family's !@#$%. And you both would later discuss and compromise on how best to bring up the children. Many couples have done this, and many are happy. Would you go away with him?

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Postby moto » Tue, 22 Sep 2009 5:53 pm

why does anyone have to convert to either one's religion? regardless of the length of time that someone is given to think about converting to another religion, the fact remains that s/he is still under pressure to convert ultimately. i think affording someone some time is not magnanimity in this case.

i ask why not cancel out religion completely out of the equation? that is to say, both no longer practice any religion. this way, both parties sacrifice the same sets of beliefs, traditions, rituals and identities that are tethered to their religion in the name of their relationship. any resentment and gratitude will be mutual--and hopefully equilibrial (though realistically, probably not).

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Postby irvine » Wed, 23 Sep 2009 11:58 am

moto, in some countries and for some religion (eg: Muslim), that may not be an option.

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Postby kaseyma » Sun, 27 Sep 2009 7:57 pm

moto wrote:why does anyone have to convert to either one's religion? regardless of the length of time that someone is given to think about converting to another religion, the fact remains that s/he is still under pressure to convert ultimately. i think affording someone some time is not magnanimity in this case.

i ask why not cancel out religion completely out of the equation? that is to say, both no longer practice any religion. this way, both parties sacrifice the same sets of beliefs, traditions, rituals and identities that are tethered to their religion in the name of their relationship. any resentment and gratitude will be mutual--and hopefully equilibrial (though realistically, probably not).

Imagine that . . . .

Another dreamer.

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Postby QRM » Sun, 27 Sep 2009 8:36 pm

moto wrote:why does anyone have to convert to either one's religion?


It is the law the certain countries.

moto wrote:i ask why not cancel out religion completely out of the equation?


Because you will be arrested if you tried that.

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Postby moto » Mon, 28 Sep 2009 1:26 pm

i know that is the case in some countries, but aren't we talking about singapore here? isn't there freedom of religion and you can convert and reconvert into different religions without any state sanction? and that civil law supersedes sharia here, too?

of course she might be disowned by her family, which makes conversion seem not an option at all.

and about dreaming... the OP wants a dream, and i am presenting her the other side of her dream, and i did say it was probably not realistic...

and now john lennon sings. ;)


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