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The circumstances of an Ex-PR

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peterjoseph
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The circumstances of an Ex-PR

Postby peterjoseph » Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:20 pm

Hi all,

I've read through the forums but i've got a couple of questions left to which i couldnt find an answer.

My situation
1) My parents came to Singapore and took up the PR status years back and applied one for me too, when I was 3 years old.
2) My parents renounced by PR status when I was 14 and ever since, I have been on a student pass studying in Singapore
3) Thus I did not serve NS when I was 18
4) I am currently on the verge of completing my University education in Singapore and i am intending to work in Singapore
5) I received a letter from ICA inviting me to apply for PR upon securing a job
6) My parents still reside in Singapore with their PR status

My questions
a) If I apply for PR now, will it be considered as applying for it on my own merits?

b) If the answer to a) is a yes, if I apply for a PR at the time when I get a job (at the age of 23), will I be liable to serve NS? [since if a) is a no, I understand that I need to serve NS]

c) Will my working salary affect the CMPB's decision on whether or not to enlist me for the army? If I do get called up even after I've secured a job, does this mean that CMPB has to compensate me for my salary?

d) If I choose not to apply for PR (e.g. ignore the letter for now) and instead go for the EP, how will the income of my future job affect my chances of getting the EP?

e) Lastly, if i choose to further my studies (say obtain a second degree or go for a Masters) instead and i join the workforce at the age of 26 or 27, if i choose to apply for PR, will I be liable to serve the army?


The reason why i'm asking is because i feel that I can contribute back to Singapore via working here and paying taxes. The opportunity costs of having to serve NS now seems quite high for me.

Thank you very much for your time and I hope to hear from you soon.

Best,
PJ
Last edited by peterjoseph on Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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littlegreenman
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Postby littlegreenman » Thu, 10 Sep 2009 11:49 pm

Hi PJ,

[quote='http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=151&secid=150#ns']
NS-liable PRs are expected to serve NS. Renouncing or losing one's PR status without serving or completing full-time NS would have an adverse impact on any immediate or future applications to work or study in Singapore, or for Singapore citizenship or PR status.

Males who are granted Singapore PR, and who were previously Singapore Citizens or Singapore Permanent Residents, are liable to be called up for NS regardless of the type of PR status they have been granted[/quote]

Regardless whether you apply on your own merit or not, as you have previously been a PR, you will have to serve National Service, no matter what, there is no war around it.

Regarding EP, I can only say that the government never forgets and probably will not grant you an EP given that you renounced PR previously and then rejected an offer to take up PR right before finding a job and applying for EP. Effectively this leaves you with two choices: take up PR and serve NS or leave Singapore for good and come to terms with the fact that you can not return to live or work until you are willing to serve NS and even if you chose to serve NS at a later point in time you might not get the opportunity to apply for PR again.

Good luck making your choice. The only advice I can give you is to serve NS and make friends if you feel Singapore is your home.

peterjoseph
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Postby peterjoseph » Fri, 11 Sep 2009 11:59 am

littlegreenman wrote:Regarding EP, I can only say that the government never forgets and probably will not grant you an EP given that you renounced PR previously and then rejected an offer to take up PR right before finding a job and applying for EP. Effectively this leaves you with two choices: take up PR and serve NS or leave Singapore for good and come to terms with the fact that you can not return to live or work until you are willing to serve NS and even if you chose to serve NS at a later point in time you might not get the opportunity to apply for PR again.


Hi littlegreenman,

Thanks for your reply. I've heard that the government would like to attract and retain foreign talent into the country. From what you said, it seems like there are no exceptions? Or am I wrong?

Hope to hear from you soon,
PJ

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hello?

Postby Allibert » Fri, 11 Sep 2009 3:31 pm

how many m,ore times do you want it spelled out for you? You cannot get around doing NS.

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Postby moto » Fri, 11 Sep 2009 3:31 pm

my two cents' worth... i apologize for the acerbic tone but maybe you need a good reality check :)

if you really feel like you want to contribute to singapore, then why not render national service? don't say you will pay taxes anyway--because men your age who will work and who have rendered national service will pay taxes just the same. so why must you be exempted when you have been here for almost as long as they have been here.

sure singapore wants foreign talent. but the fact remains that you are a second generation migrant here, and the exemption no longer applies to you. you and your family have enjoyed the benefits by staying here--why not pay it back with service?

if you feel that the opportunity costs are too high now, it is because you have opted to enjoy a lot of the opportunities here without doing the counterpart responsibilities. if you just followed the usual trajectory, which also cost some opportunities among the men of your cohort, there would be no problems...

i think it is more constructive to just do what you have to do rather than spend so much time speculating about the future and thinking about ways to get around the requirements.

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littlegreenman
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Postby littlegreenman » Fri, 11 Sep 2009 4:02 pm

moto is right. Just accept it, make a decision whether you want to stay or leave (most likely for good) and get on with it.

peterjoseph
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Update

Postby peterjoseph » Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:23 pm

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your replies. It's become apparent to me that I cant serve NS even if I wanted to now (only citizens and PRs can serve). However, I cant apply for a PR because I've been barred from getting a job - much like a chicken and egg question.

The PR application mentions that:
Male ex-Singapore Citizens and ex-Singapore Permanent Residents who are granted Singapore PR status are liable to be called up for NS regardless of the type of PR status they are granted
Thus, it seems like it's possible for ex-PRs/ex-Citizens to apply for PR/Citizenship and then be assessed for NS thereafter.

It's a really sticky situation that might leave me no choice but to leave Singapore.

Has anyone else been in the same situation as I am in?

Also, does anyone know of any ex-PR/ex-Citizens who renounced prior to serving NS but managed to get their PR/Citizens back? If so under what circumstances did this happen?

Best,
PJ

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Saint
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Postby Saint » Fri, 30 Oct 2009 12:34 am

So you are saying you aren't prepared to serve NS even though you've lived here all your life, previously been PR and want to be PR again?

peterjoseph
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I am prepared

Postby peterjoseph » Fri, 30 Oct 2009 9:37 am

Hi Saint,

Pardon me if my communication in the above text was not clear. I am prepared to serve. In fact I have checked with the ministry but they said that I am unable to serve as only citizens and PRs are liable to serve. Hence, the chicken and egg situation.

PJ

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Re: Update

Postby jpatokal » Fri, 30 Oct 2009 1:12 pm

peterjoseph wrote:However, I cant apply for a PR because I've been barred from getting a job - much like a chicken and egg question.

Sorry, what do you mean by "barred" from getting a job? Presumably any employer would have to get an EP to hire you, so your job search will be difficult, but not legally impossible. (If ICA invited you to apply for PR, I doubt they will deny you an EP!)
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Postby textex » Fri, 30 Oct 2009 4:46 pm

Hi mod is right,

- you are barred from working because you are on a student pass (?)
- if you want to work, you will have to find a job and the company has to apply to get your EP
- once you are working, you can apply for PR
- when you get your PR you are liable to do NS.

- if you complete your study and don't find a job, you may have to leave Singapore. Not sure how else you can stay though.


Tex

peterjoseph
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Chicken & Egg

Postby peterjoseph » Mon, 02 Nov 2009 6:18 pm

Sorry, what do you mean by "barred" from getting a job? Presumably any employer would have to get an EP to hire you, so your job search will be difficult, but not legally impossible. (If ICA invited you to apply for PR, I doubt they will deny you an EP!)


Thanks for your replies guys. Sorry if I wasnt clear in my posts. Let me clarify them:

1) I got a job, applied for an EP and it was turned down
2) I approached MOM and they told me to approach CMPB
3) I was told (by CMPB) that my application for EP was turned down because I had not served NS

Hence, the problem now is that I cant work - hence apply for PR. I have expressed my desire to serve but i'm not allowed to because i'm not a PR.

@ jpatokal - yup, i was invited by ICA to apply for PR and at the same time, I've been denied an EP.

Hope this clarifies things.

Best,
PJ

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jpatokal
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Re: Chicken & Egg

Postby jpatokal » Tue, 03 Nov 2009 12:25 am

peterjoseph wrote:1) I got a job, applied for an EP and it was turned down
2) I approached MOM and they told me to approach CMPB
3) I was told (by CMPB) that my application for EP was turned down because I had not served NS

Arrgh. Classic Catch-22 ](*,)

Your odds aren't too good, but I think pretty much the only thing you can do is approach CMPB and explain the situation, underlining that your PR was renounced by your parents when you were underaged and you want to serve NS. Contacting ICA and seeing if they can help probably would not hurt either. Try to get the names of all the bureaucrats you deal with, the only way you'll get this sorted is if Mr. X at CMPB can talk to Ms. Y at MOM and Mdm. Z at MOM.
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Postby Gammaa » Tue, 03 Nov 2009 3:05 am

Case 1: Father became PR, then citizen and bought landed property.
Son stayed with him, studied in Singapore and then left overseas for further studies. He returned with 1st class honours double degrees from a top university.
Application for EP for a S4.5K job offer was rejected. Priority should be given to citizens or PRs.
Application for PR rejected because of no job. Offer to do NS was dismissed.
All his father’s strong contacts/influence failed.
Honestly, who wants to be accused of undermining the laws and sabotaging internal security? Why is NS mandatory? Remember what happened to wealthy Kuwait with its high expat population who ran away when Iraq attacked?
His permission to remain in Singapore has expired after age 21.
He found a job outside Singapore, the equivalence of S1.2K! No choice.

Case 2: Guy got EP for pilot cadet. When he was FO he applied for PR. His background check revealed that he has once declined offer of PR, so new application for PR denied. Present EP cancelled. He has to leave Singapore with a huge bond to repay for his training.

My sympathies to peterjoseph. I have a melodramatic suggestion (It's OK to decline). Beseech and grovel to Mindef. They have plenty of vacancies. Tell them you want to be a permanent combat officer. You love Singapore so much that you want to be a citizen to fight for Singapore and die for Singapore. You are now negotiating to give 20 years NS instead of 2 which you have avoided.

Frankly if you have applied for NS duty when you were 18 even if you were not PR, I believe they would have accepted your offer. I have heard of foreign parents who told their children studying in Spore to do just that. If your offer was rejected then in some documentary evidence, that might just save you now.

The onus is on you as an 18yr old ADULT to show your sincerity and intention to remain residing in Singapore.
I am not trying to put salt into your wounds but to give others some food for thought.

peterjoseph
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Postby peterjoseph » Tue, 03 Nov 2009 2:13 pm

@ jpatokal - Thanks for the advice, I'll think of how this route could work out.

@ Gammaa - Thanks for the case studies. No hard feelings about what you said because what you said does make some sense. By the way do you know when these case studies took place?

Does anyone else have anymore stories to share? That might help broaden everyone else's perspective as well as mine in this case.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Best,
PJ


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