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Born in the PRC, Singaporean: Some questions!!

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derp
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Born in the PRC, Singaporean: Some questions!!

Post by derp » Fri, 07 Aug 2009 2:18 pm

hi everyone,

as the title says, i was born in the People's Republic of China in year 1989, but came to Singapore at 5 months old, and have been living and studying here ever since. My mother was a PRC, but married my dad who is a Singaporean, and my mother now only has Singaporean Citizenship.

I know that i have to serve the National Service in order to give my Singapore citizenship a confirmation. I have already deferred for NS since i'm studying right now.

So my question is: is there any ways if i can get PRC passport (i dont have one), not sure if the chinese laws allows me to, cause i was born there and also keep my Singapore citizenship. i also know there is no way that i can escape National Service since i still want to have my citizenship.

One more point, recently i made a new passport, and the ICA only gave me 2 years, because i haven't served the NS, and also they say because i was born in the PRC i have to take my oath when i'm 21 years old.

So considering what she said, i had a crazy plan to escape National Service, i find it wasting my precious time cause i have plans to continue my studies in the US and thinking of living there permanently since i have contacts there. Does it mean that if i were to reject citizenship, i'll be granted PRC statue automatically.

My mother said that my family doesnt have any 'family accounts' in the PRC, my grandparents are PRCs but PRs in Singapore, but probably doesnt apply since they are my grandparents, not parents.

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littlegreenman
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Post by littlegreenman » Sat, 08 Aug 2009 12:26 am

I advise you to use the search forum and read some of the recent threads on this issue first.

Bottom line though is you can not have dual citizenship once you are 21, it is either or. That is what it means to take your oath, you will have to give up your PRC Citizenship if you want to stay Singaporean then. Also forget about dodging NS. Given that you took up Singapore Citizenship and did not inform them of your intend to renounce your Singapore Citizenship once you were 11 there is pretty much no way you can get out of it legally. Speak to your parents as well though. When they sent you overseas for your studies they should have applied for an exit permit where all these things are mentioned and I believe they must have also paid a bond for you.

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Post by seesee » Sat, 08 Aug 2009 4:42 pm

There are many ways you can escape National Service as long you are not born here.

Just ask around.

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littlegreenman
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Post by littlegreenman » Sat, 08 Aug 2009 5:50 pm

seesee wrote:There are many ways you can escape National Service as long you are not born here.

Just ask around.
Not if he wants to keep his Singapore Citizenship and wants to keep it legal without being thrown in jail or having to pay a fine.

To the OP: you better get to grips with the fact that you will have to do NS unless you are planning to give up your Singapore Citizenship.

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sundaymorningstaple
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 08 Aug 2009 7:05 pm

seesee wrote:There are many ways you can escape National Service as long you are not born here.

Just ask around.
Not if he doesn't want to be classed as a deserter and will never be able to come to Singapore again. Could, in fact, when the new computer system is up and running, catch you even in transiting Singapore without even coming through immigration. So evade if you want. It's your life without bridges. listen to idiots like seesee if you don't really care.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by wcs » Thu, 17 Sep 2009 9:14 pm

Even if you manage to get another passport and do your NS, you can be caught by the system. Either when you leave the country to locations where you need a visa or electronic travel authority and you try to use your other passport instead.

There is also a catch-all at 30yo. When you renew your IC, you are required to confirm that you have not taken out another citizenship. Whilst it is simple to lie, it ups the stakes as you are now guilty of perjury, for which they can fine you or give you jail time.

When you are young, 2 years seems like a long time, as you get older you will find it is not that big a deal!

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Re: Born in the PRC, Singaporean: Some questions!!

Post by taxico » Mon, 21 Sep 2009 9:30 am

derp wrote:...i have plans to continue my studies in the US and thinking of living there permanently since i have contacts there...

My mother said that my family doesnt have any 'family accounts' in the PRC, my grandparents are PRCs but PRs in Singapore, but probably doesnt apply since they are my grandparents, not parents.
(i know this is a slightly old thread... but in case he comes back...)

you might want to sort out your "hukou" issues with a chinese specialist. i can see how having PRC papers down the road can be an attractive proposition, and if your extended family are city-based, that will be sweet-as.

as for "living permanently" in the USA... short of having immediate members petition for a permit on your behalf... it is not easy for most young people to stay on indefinitely. even well-qualified individuals have problems getting their visas/PRs/citizenship applications across.

what's more, a singaporean would stand a higher chance of getting approval for being granted permission to live in the US than a PRC national due to that trade agreement and (i think) internal quotas.

singapore is afterall, a much smaller country and good american ally. so unless your 'contacts' are high ranking members of the WH, congress or state department, it may not be as easy as you think, except to stay in university for a long long time...

whatever you do, think it through properly and don't make rash decisions because of NS. it's really not as bad as you think.

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Post by derp » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:40 am

Thanks for the replies guys.

Well, i only have a Singaporean passport, and a pink IC. Its fine if dual citizenship is not possible. I'm just not willing to let the government take 2 precious years away from me when i have plans.

but nvm that for now, just need to know if its possible for me to drop my citizenship at this point, before they call me up for medical check up, and school will end next may.


peace

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Post by econoMIC » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 1:05 am

derp wrote:Thanks for the replies guys.

Well, i only have a Singaporean passport, and a pink IC. Its fine if dual citizenship is not possible. I'm just not willing to let the government take 2 precious years away from me when i have plans.

but nvm that for now, just need to know if its possible for me to drop my citizenship at this point, before they call me up for medical check up, and school will end next may.


peace
Highly doubtful. I don't think there is any legal way you can avoid it. To be honest with you and can understand that you are not keen on serving NS in a country you have never lived in or many personal ties with but as mentioned, there seems to be pretty much no way around it given that you or your parents never declared your intension to renounce your citizenship once 21 and if you would you would be stateless, which would be even worse. Further two years is not that long and NS is not as bad as people make it sound. You will make friendships that last for a lifetime.
a.k.a. littlegreenman

derp
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Post by derp » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 1:57 am

i just checked out the local immigration website.

http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=134&secid=130
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent/registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty within 12 months on attaining the age of 21 years to remain as Singapore Citizens.

If the Oath is not taken, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years.

Failure to take the Oath and the consequences
If one fails to take the Oath within 12 months on attaining the age of 21 years, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years and there is no assurance that he/she can continue studying, working or residing in Singapore as a foreigner on any form of student pass, work pass, social visit pass or as a permanent resident.

Eligibility
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent or registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty upon attaining 21 years of age and before attaining 22 years of age.

And according to the chinese laws (from wikipedia, not very reliable i know)
because i was born there, i can still renounce to be a chinese again even if im stateless, and i have near relatives who are holding the chinese passport.

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Post by john_nyc_71 » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 6:29 am

There is no way for you to avoid NS legally.

If you want to do it illegally, there are plenty of ways. I know of a Singaporean who left for the US for studies, forfeited the bond and never came back. I also have a friend who just left for Australia, got PR there and never came back - this was before he was even in university! You don't even need another citizenship if you are happy not to travel between the time your Singapore passport expires and you acquire citizenship of a new country.

This does assume that you can maintain legal status (student/work visa or PR) in the new country or else you might break the new country's immigration laws, which will cause you to be deported back to Singapore, where you will be arrested.

If you think about it - there are many risks here. You could get a job and a work visa/permit, but if you are laid off, you are in trouble. Also, once your Singapore passport expires, it will be quite difficult for you to obtain any kind of student or work visa from any country, which means you really need to obtain PR status before your Singapore passport expires - quite impossible in the case of the US.

In your case though, if you manage to get a PRC passport, then at the very least you can return to China if you lose your status in the US (or whereever you are going to). Note, however, that it is very difficult to get a US visa as a citizen of the PRC, especially for someone like yourself who has barely lived there, since the US looks of evidence of ties to your home country as a condition for issuing a visa.

But this is illegal according to Singapore law, which means for the rest of your life, you cannot step into Singapore without being arrested. This includes transiting through Singapore, and also includes situations where you are in a plane that for some reason needs to make an unscheduled or emergency landing in Singapore. Remember, technology is getting more and more advanced, and Singapore already has your fingerprints. Most countries are fingerprinting visitors these days, and it is probably a matter of time before Singapore does so as well. So even convoluted tricks like coming to Singapore on a foreign passport with a different name may not work in the future (not to mention that one of the questions that the ICA asks you when you enter Singapore is whether you've ever entered on a different name).
Last edited by john_nyc_71 on Sat, 26 Sep 2009 7:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by john_nyc_71 » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 6:57 am

derp wrote:i just checked out the local immigration website.

http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=134&secid=130
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent/registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty within 12 months on attaining the age of 21 years to remain as Singapore Citizens.

If the Oath is not taken, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years.

Failure to take the Oath and the consequences
If one fails to take the Oath within 12 months on attaining the age of 21 years, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years and there is no assurance that he/she can continue studying, working or residing in Singapore as a foreigner on any form of student pass, work pass, social visit pass or as a permanent resident.

Eligibility
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent or registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty upon attaining 21 years of age and before attaining 22 years of age.

And according to the chinese laws (from wikipedia, not very reliable i know)
because i was born there, i can still renounce to be a chinese again even if im stateless, and i have near relatives who are holding the chinese passport.
Not taking at oath at 21 does not mean you are no longer liable for NS. You can be a non-citizen and still be liable for NS. The practice used to be that for someone like you when you show up for your medical checkup is for them to make you sign a statement acknowledging that you need to complete your NS even if you lose your Singapore citizenship. This was a while back, so things may have changed since. Also I don't know what the consequences are if you refused to sign that statement. You can't renounce your Singapore citizenship until you turn 21, and Singapore will not accept the renunciation of citizenship for anyone who has not completed NS.

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Post by taxico » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 7:07 am

john_nyc_71 wrote:...If you want to do it illegally, there are plenty of ways... You don't even need another citizenship if you are happy not to travel between the time your Singapore passport expires and you acquire citizenship of a new country.

This does assume that you can maintain legal status (student/work visa or PR) in the new country or else you might break the new country's immigration laws, which will cause you to be deported back to Singapore, where you will be arrested.
judging from his posts, this chinese born kid is young and possibly impressionable.

while i understand your intentions, i must comment that i've not encountered any immigration department in the western world that would issue and attach a valid visa/permit/PR to an expired passport.

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Post by taxico » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 7:11 am

derp wrote:...And according to the chinese laws (from wikipedia, not very reliable i know) because i was born there, i can still renounce to be a chinese again even if im stateless, and i have near relatives who are holding the chinese passport.
personally, i don't believe you thoroughly understand the consequence of becoming a stateless person. i won't go into detail.

i think your best way forward would be to commence the process for obtaining a chinese passport.

while chinese laws may say you can do this and that, the reality might be more complicated and drawn out than you think.

or perhaps it might be more $imple than i think (i don't know and you probably don't know too until you start).

either way, until you've obtained another set of papers, you are cornered by the NS monster.

derp
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Post by derp » Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:38 pm

taxico wrote:
derp wrote:...And according to the chinese laws (from wikipedia, not very reliable i know) because i was born there, i can still renounce to be a chinese again even if im stateless, and i have near relatives who are holding the chinese passport.
personally, i don't believe you thoroughly understand the consequence of becoming a stateless person. i won't go into detail.

i think your best way forward would be to commence the process for obtaining a chinese passport.

while chinese laws may say you can do this and that, the reality might be more complicated and drawn out than you think.

or perhaps it might be more $imple than i think (i don't know and you probably don't know too until you start).

either way, until you've obtained another set of papers, you are cornered by the NS monster.
i am doing it right now. i just wanna know if i have any chance to get out, properly.

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