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WIFE DEPARTED FROM SINGAPORE-MOM marriage restriction policy

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:08 pm

There is actually one route, you may consider, however there are no guarantees. If Singapore is a member of WHO, they will after evaluate the effects of health on the partners and children involved. If it seen to be in violation of human rights, Singapore will end up penalised. One may well say Singapore do not care, but who am I to judge that.

Although it may cost money, or it may cost only reminder of the WHO rules on human rights and health. Until it is tried no one will know, although i doubt any legal authority in Singapore will get involved, one would have to write direct to the WHO, and ask them to appeal on your behalf, due to the inhumane suffering caused by separation of spouse and children, simply because of bureaucracy.

The effect on children mental health would be considered more than the separation of the spouse. Because suffering is a part of life and divorce only comes second to death, however not so for children, it's more damaging to separated from parents, mentally, which could cause permanent lasting damage. If an appeal was a chance, I would go direct to the top, Singapore better be prepared for a scolding, and very similar to the UK.

They are a law only to themselves, the UK never ever will listen to European law, and how many people have it in them to take it further. I know, one cannot find legal European advice or representation in UK to take them to the European Courts, because they would be blacklisted under British law.

However those that have fought tooth and nail, have found, that the British government comes to a settlement long before the Court case, because they know they will be severely punished financially. But in the long run, the government actually do save millions of pounds in welfare benefits, so it pays the government to not listen to Europe, so why not settle paying a few 100k for the one's that have the staying power to go the whole way to European court.

Of course it takes time, patience and a lot of stress, but i have seen the UK pay up on several occasions, rather than end up in the Court. For Countries who are members of the WHO, they have to abide by their rules on what constitutes health and human rights. Nothing is easy, when you are faced with defeat, but were there is will power there is a way! There is also a cost to pay, in terms of health and stress too.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:40 pm

ksl,

There is only one small problem with going the route you are espousing....

The OP is not a Singaporean, therefore the problem is not the Singapore Government but a problem created by the OP himself.

If he is a Singaporean, then yes, he may well have grounds in that direction. But in this case, nobody is preventing her from going to the OP's country as his wife. If fact they are already there. The problem is that she broke the law before they got married. It is not something that was enacted after they were married and is now retroactive. She signed the application knowing fully well the limitations and codicils attached to signing it. It's a contract, pure and simple with a performance clause which she broke. I'm afraid, while an interesting theory, it wouldn't even get to first base unless the OP was a citizen of Singapore. Even then, it's doubtful they would get involved as the problem is of their own doing and not the government.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:41 pm

He never won either, but it didn't stop this guy....

Image

So don't let us stop you, just be prepared for a lot of frustration & grief and who knows, you may well get lucky.

One can hope anyway.

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:53 pm

Yes I understand, but i posted it, after thinking about your nephews case too, it's not always easy to see anyway out. If it was a refugee, the route would be eventually taken, their are loop holes, but finding them is the problem.

The UK has suffered many defeats in law under the several treaties, because of international involvement. My point is mainly a suggestion for those connected to Singapore through family and are citizens.
Of course two people from different Countries have no chance whatsoever. But I have heard Singaporeans men, that never had permission to marry, have been penalised, anything that effects mental health and I would believe marriage, and separation, would fall into this category. Would call for an appeal from those that do have a the power, to appeal on human rights grounds, it cannot be done internally, because it is law. within the Country.

I also believe you will find under international law and human rights charter, that two humans no matter which Country they come from have the right to marry who they want to marry, and no government can dictate anything different, because of discrimination.

Although you are right to say, that a long fight and many frustrations and disappointments, will be the result.

Once you give up residence in the UK for example, the government can refuse entry to a foreign wife, although under residence laws, they cannot refuse the wife, but the wife must follow the rules of family transition, which means she is deported, until all checks are done, and she must also sign papers to say she will no seek help from the welfare system for a period of 3 years. (joke) she is also not entitled to any form of help or integration free (another joke) Charitable societies are the ones that provide this help in English classes and local community free assistants.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:06 pm

As long as the girl or guy that is a non-citizen signs that right away voluntarily, humanitarian reasons or not, the problem is not one of human suffering as it is self induced. I don't think S&M counts.

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:23 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As long as the girl or guy that is a non-citizen signs that right away voluntarily, humanitarian reasons or not, the problem is not one of human suffering as it is self induced. I don't think S&M counts.


I notice he the OP is a European PR, so he has every right in the world to complain to the higher authority in Europe based on discrimination, and he should do.

It doesn't matter at all, if he wins or not who cares in the end? Life is full of frustrations, and the biggest of all are government bodies. To give in to any department would be in the favour of those running the department within the local laws laid down, however big daddy says different, and if you want to play on the International playing field, you have to play the game, not the player :lol: It works both ways, and that is how it will be looked at, you are either accommadating or not. This is all a dipolmatic games nothing more or less, but if they have signed treaties, with Europe, and we do not know, then they will be scolded for their actions.

The USA cannot be compared, for obvious reasons, its nothing to do with the US. You get to keep Taiwan :lol: But Singapore i'm afraid is very closely tied to Europe, and also recieves European aid.

BTW I was reminded I have birthday tomorow, so if you fancy a beer at the same place White tangerine give me a ring or PM me, though i will have the other half my wife and possibly my daughter there too. Been there tonight actually!

I know its late but if Addadude and his other half and the others that turned up last time, they are also welcome to come along, my wife is Chinese, Taiwanese and would probably enjoy the Company too for a couple of hours.

But let me know before 4pm if you can, otherwise I probably won't go. if any are turning up please let me know the time, and I'll make sure we are there, to meet you!
Last edited by ksl on Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:07 am, edited 3 times in total.

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:47 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As long as the girl or guy that is a non-citizen signs that right away voluntarily, humanitarian reasons or not, the problem is not one of human suffering as it is self induced. I don't think S&M counts.
why would someone voluntarily sign anything that is against them? Sorry don't understand, I was under the impression that people didn't ask permission to get married, that in itself, is an infringement of human rights is it not? laws of a Country of course have to be followed.

But if they have signed agreements outside of own legislation, that is to say international laws, they will be held accountable, the same as any Company will be held accountable under international laws if trading overseas. Nothing to do with local laws.

International law, i have studied, even though I'm no expert, on legal, I do understand, that if Countries want to play, they will be reminded of their obligations, it depends on the agreements between Countries in the end. Though I am always an optimist, otherwise I'd be an alcoholic :lol: 23:49 and you have gone to bed ? :wink: Your lucky night is it :roll: I'm still wishing for my birthday present!

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:57 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:As long as the girl or guy that is a non-citizen signs that right away voluntarily, humanitarian reasons or not, the problem is not one of human suffering as it is self induced. I don't think S&M counts.
Children are not held accountable for the actions of adults, and children are suffering. its true if the male is in Singapore, the kids would stay with the wife, what about changing religion would that help :lol: jokingly of course

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Postby Minke » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 1:35 am

Very creative and good points director, absolutely worth of exploring if things get bad. Singapore is a member of WHO. It would also be good to appeal human rights folks like you said.

sundaymorningstaple, I am still just thinking that is that common law marriage certificate really so significant since we didnt even need to sign that document, just went to embassy and got it right away. Like I mentioned, in many countries like mine, common law marriage just means that couple is living together..

btw, what is PO?

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Postby littlegreenman » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 6:12 am

ksl wrote:...But Singapore i'm afraid is very closely tied to Europe, and also recieves European aid...


Why would a country with almost permanent budget surpluses and huge national savings need or be given aid?! Examples please, I am really curious here. I rather think Singapore might give Europe some financial aid. If they need know how then Singapore can simply buy it which is easier, faster, without conditions and most important "not lose face one"

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 7:30 am

Minke wrote:Very creative and good points director, absolutely worth of exploring if things get bad. Singapore is a member of WHO. It would also be good to appeal human rights folks like you said.

sundaymorningstaple, I am still just thinking that is that common law marriage certificate really so significant since we didnt even need to sign that document, just went to embassy and got it right away. Like I mentioned, in many countries like mine, common law marriage just means that couple is living together..

btw, what is PO?


PO? Beats me :???:

Theoretically the documents establishes the presence of an existing relationship. The fact that the Singapore Government required something to prove a relationship existed prior to arrival here (there is not a shack-job with the Thai hooker you met in OT one night or SPG or Domestic Helper met at lucky plaza one Sunday afternoon). Unfortunately, a lot of the embassies now, as you say, just give out the cert (But you still probably have to attest to the truth so if you lied and were found out, Singapore could hang you out to dry), which means it's kind of a joke. But you still have to go through the motions.

ksl,

Who's talking about children? We are talking about adults who voluntarily sign documents that restrict their activities in a country that is not their country of origin. Does that mean if Singapore says you cannot enter the country because you have been convicted of a certain crime 30 years ago, you should be able to go to WHO to overturn that Governments Sovereign Rights? Pretty laughable don't you think? Every country has the right to decide who they will let into the country and who not to let into the country. I think a little common sense should be the order of the day.

Anyway, late, gottta run not to catch the bus to work on a Saturnday Morning! :mad:

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Postby Strong Eagle » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 7:56 am

littlegreenman wrote:
ksl wrote:...But Singapore i'm afraid is very closely tied to Europe, and also recieves European aid...


Why would a country with almost permanent budget surpluses and huge national savings need or be given aid?! Examples please, I am really curious here. I rather think Singapore might give Europe some financial aid. If they need know how then Singapore can simply buy it which is easier, faster, without conditions and most important "not lose face one"


Certainly no 'aid' mentioned in the annual budget.

http://www.singaporebudget.gov.sg/reven ... e/toc.html

Certainly, Singapore will be engaged in various military programs, and does charge rent for ships coming in, but direct aid? I think not.

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ksl
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Postby ksl » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:21 am

Strong Eagle wrote:
littlegreenman wrote:
ksl wrote:...But Singapore i'm afraid is very closely tied to Europe, and also recieves European aid...


Why would a country with almost permanent budget surpluses and huge national savings need or be given aid?! Examples please, I am really curious here. I rather think Singapore might give Europe some financial aid. If they need know how then Singapore can simply buy it which is easier, faster, without conditions and most important "not lose face one"


Certainly no 'aid' mentioned in the annual budget.

http://www.singaporebudget.gov.sg/reven ... e/toc.html

Certainly, Singapore will be engaged in various military programs, and does charge rent for ships coming in, but direct aid? I think not.


Sorry my mistake, I should have said various agreements in place between EU and ASEAN not aid! I was on the pop last night :lol:

certain crime 30 years ago, you should be able to go to WHO to overturn that Governments Sovereign Rights? Pretty laughable don't you think?
yes it is, but it's happening all the time, and you haven't noticed 25 years of oppression is it ?

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 829446.cms

Immigrants are taking action not only against countries on discrimination but also human rights too, so why should Singapore be any different, you want the clout you have to go and search for it...the UK has been losing out to these laws every time, although they still keep them in place in stead of changing the laws, because the more bureaucratic a Country is, the more frustration it is for any citizens to challenge the ruling laws, doesn't mean that the international courts, will not run in your favour, and talking of common sense most governments will not fight the case, if they know they will lose. So they say keep quite sign the paper and move on, which is better than opening the doors, to a flood of cases.

It would be very wrong of any of us, to say you cannot beat the system at it's own game on an international playing field read and digest

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ights.html

I'm not saying it will make a difference, what i am saying is, people have nothing to lose, what Singapore terms a criminal offence for not asking permission to get married is bullshit, and would be internationally condemned has discrimination and a breach of human rights, like it or not!

Only 25 years living on the dot, must tarnish one's hopes of change, that i must admit. Yes it is laughable :lol:

A good European barrister would jump at the chance, just for the publicity, mind you only if he thought he could win.

The op being European on PR status does have a very good chance of redress against the laws of Singapore, and it doesn't really matter if he wins or loses, it's a matter of principle. Just because there are laws in a Country doesn't mean that they are legal to the international community!

If anyone knows the laws better than us, it is the illegal immigrants that have free legal access , me and you would have to pay for it! :lol:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/pers ... ights.html

SMS:Every country has the right to decide who they will let into the country and who not to let into the country. I think a little common sense should be the order of the day.
:P There is very little common sense in this world, only problems and personal injustices:roll:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/colum ... it-EU.html

International Ombudsman
http://www.law.ualberta.ca/centres/ioi/

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Postby morenangpinay » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 5:23 pm

just try. .theres nothing wrong in trying. Singapore also ratified labor laws with ILO but they're violating some..

But I've heard from some friends there are Singapore citizens who married former work permit holders...and theyre here. I just dont know what they did..maybe they asked for permission from the government before marrying.

Im still asking my friend how her friends did it...il tell u when i get the answer. but most probably they asked for permission before getting married.. one guy sent his request to marry his filipino partner and hes still waiting. the girl has been travelling back and forth. i think its been 5 years now they live like that.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:54 pm

Okay guys, have it your way. But, a contract, entered into freely and that does not contravene any current laws, will stand up in any court. Especially considering neither of the people are citizens of the country. With the OP as a PR, the government can revoke his PR at their leisure just be declaring that he is an undesirable element. And sorry, no matter what one might believe, no court in the world can touch it. If you are not a citizen or acquired citizenship in the country, there's SFA one can do about it.

But don't let that stop anybody. It's their money, time and aggravation. Not mine. I wish you all the luck in the world.

Who knows, maybe they will give it to you under the table and advise you that everything will be canceled if you breath a word about it. Stranger things have happened. At the end of the day, it's everything to do with who you know or what you can bring to the table. But I'm not going to be the one who pumps you up with slim to non-existent chances on some far out hope that WHO or some other organization will do something. I'd rather you see the reality of the situation and not an idealistic pipe-dream.
Last edited by sundaymorningstaple on Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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