Warning from MOM and now doing a visa run- advice needed!

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Tainak
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Post by Tainak » Wed, 01 Jul 2009 4:20 pm

I forgot to answer hibri...

I got caught because an ex- employee of the company filed a complaint at MOM.

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Post by hibri2 » Wed, 01 Jul 2009 4:33 pm

Tainak wrote:I forgot to answer hibri...

I got caught because an ex- employee of the company filed a complaint at MOM.
i see, i just want to really apologize for implying that it may have been something of your doing, ok? it was not really clear until now and generally speaking i follow the "plan for the worst, hope for the best" mentality.

as i wrote above, the HR from the place i work messed up and they didn't told me (actually it was a guy who knew he messed it up and was covering his mess) so i was really close to get it rejected a third time which means i could vouch based on my own experiences that stuff like that happens, i got him from confessing basically cause i was about to run out of money while i waited.

the only thing i dont understand it is that, as far as i know, they are not allowed to let you work until you have the EP, if they let you work they are at fault for not letting you know the issues.

have you tried to check any legal advise on your embassy?
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 01 Jul 2009 4:53 pm

hibri2 wrote: the only thing i dont understand it is that, as far as i know, they are not allowed to let you work until you have the EP, if they let you work they are at fault for not letting you know the issues.

have you tried to check any legal advise on your embassy?
hibri2,

You are correct. But in actual practice most companies put them to work because they are only working for a week or 2 at the most...... normally.

They are gambling as well as it would be easy for the authorities to start poking around after a company has submitted their EP application. Probably the only reason more are not caught is a manpower situation working at MOM doesn't allow them to have that many field officers. Lot's of companies just write it off as subcontract services. Illegal as hell but there you go. Unfortunately, instead of having a case against the employer, as ignorance is not a excuse in the eyes of the law nor in MOM's eyes, the employee should not agree to anything without reading the application before it's submitted to MOM (online or otherwise). With this in mind, it would be in MOM's eyes, collusion between the employee and employer to work without permit and fine both.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by hibri2 » Wed, 01 Jul 2009 5:10 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote: Lot's of companies just write it off as subcontract services. Illegal as hell but there you go. Unfortunately, instead of having a case against the employer, as ignorance is not a excuse in the eyes of the law nor in MOM's eyes, the employee should not agree to anything without reading the application before it's submitted to MOM (online or otherwise). With this in mind, it would be in MOM's eyes, collusion between the employee and employer to work without permit and fine both.
yah, i have noticed that the hyper-corporatism of singapore makes the system protect always the employer over the employee...

my only real experience with the whole EP have been in a place where they enforced a total no-work until EP is ready policy, they used to let me come to the office and read the news and get coffee and cookies... but no work (and no pay off course), hence my surprise about the above situation.

maybe a long shot, but can the embassy do something?

Tainak, if you really cant do something about and you have your facts straight, maybe write a nice and brutal news article of this. it is a nice get-back-to-you-capitalists-pigs thing to do. :-)
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 01 Jul 2009 6:25 pm

hibri2,

I gave that some thought but decided that probably not. The embassies are generally disinclined to get engaged in Singapore's internal affairs. Especially if their citizen has actually broken the local laws here. About the only time I've ever seen interference is if it's a capital crime and that would only be by countries that do not, themselves, have capital punishment.

When it's a breaking of the law, most countries will keep a hand's off policy, especially if it's a situation where nobody is going to get locked up. Ejection from a country wouldn't cause an embassy to get involved I don't believe.....

I also don't believe in burning any bridges, so writing an article to the local birdcage liner would just tend to make it worse and that 12 months might become never...
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by hibri2 » Wed, 01 Jul 2009 6:30 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote: I also don't believe in burning any bridges, so writing an article to the local birdcage liner would just tend to make it worse and that 12 months might become never...
yah, you are maybe right on that one, just note that i generally put a smiley at the end of certain lines to imply a "sort of joking" statement.
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Post by jpatokal » Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:19 pm

hibri2 wrote:if that is the case, shouldn't Tainak will have a case against the employer?
Not really, because Tainak is also guilty of violating the conditions of his social visit pass (read: working).

If they have written proof that the company was employing them illegally, eg. payslips, then they could file a complaint against the company with MOM and probably get them slapped with a hefty fine. But this is a separate issue, really, and won't do anything to solve Tainak's own problem.
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Post by morenangpinay » Sat, 04 Jul 2009 2:04 am

its practice by some companies to make the applicant work first for a few weeks. When i was applying the employer told me to work for 2 weeks just so he could see if I can do the job. I told him its against the law to do that but he said everyone is doing it and the MOM won't know. luckily I already had a job so I didn't agree... Just to make him sweat, I said I'd think about it and call him back ;p

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Post by Vaucluse » Sat, 04 Jul 2009 2:01 pm


hibri2 wrote
maybe a long shot, but can the embassy do something?
As SMS mentioned, this has nothing to do with consular affairs.

jpatokal wrote:
hibri2 wrote:
if that is the case, shouldn't Tainak will have a case against the employer?
Not really, because Tainak is also guilty of violating the conditions of his social visit pass (read: working).
Nonsense, jpat. One does not negate the other . . . where did you get your legal training from?
Of course he has recourse . . . if he was given an offer letter with the required information on it . . . which he should have if the situation is legit . . . which admittedly it doesn't sound like it is.

However, taken at face value, let's say this is legit . . . then he must have some sort of offer letter, e-mails (yes, they can be legally admissible), sms (yes, they can be legally admissible) . . . anything written from the employer . . . and if they did screw up they can get frigged right royally.

If he hasn't received an offer letter then the guy is probably working in some boiler-room scam game.
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Post by Strong Eagle » Sat, 04 Jul 2009 2:15 pm

Vaucluse wrote:However, taken at face value, let's say this is legit . . . then he must have some sort of offer letter, e-mails (yes, they can be legally admissible), sms (yes, they can be legally admissible) . . . anything written from the employer . . . and if they did screw up they can get frigged right royally.

If he hasn't received an offer letter then the guy is probably working in some boiler-room scam game.
If this was totally legit, the OP would have needed to sign the employment pass application verifying his particulars.

The OP can certainly be faulted for being ignorant of the employment laws. If this was totally legit, the OP would have needed to sign the employment pass application verifying his particulars. I don't see that he did.

If he did sign, then he should also be aware that working without an approved pass is a no-no, as has been demonstrated by MOM slapping is hand.

Certainly the employer is culpable as well but the employee has no recourse... he knew or should have known the conditions under which he could actually work. It would appear that he chose to look the other way. I'd like to know how he got paid. No work permit, hard to get a bank account to cash a check.

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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 04 Jul 2009 3:29 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:
Vaucluse wrote:However, taken at face value, let's say this is legit . . . then he must have some sort of offer letter, e-mails (yes, they can be legally admissible), sms (yes, they can be legally admissible) . . . anything written from the employer . . . and if they did screw up they can get frigged right royally.

If he hasn't received an offer letter then the guy is probably working in some boiler-room scam game.
If this was totally legit, the OP would have needed to sign the employment pass application verifying his particulars.

Correct. Therefore as I said before, collusion.

The OP can certainly be faulted for being ignorant of the employment laws. If this was totally legit, the OP would have needed to sign the employment pass application verifying his particulars. I don't see that he did.

If he did sign, then he should also be aware that working without an approved pass is a no-no, as has been demonstrated by MOM slapping is hand.

Again, Correct. Of course if it was the employer pulling a fast one, They might have not even filed the application after the employee signed it.

Also, most local SME's do not bother to give a letter of offer. Neither do they have them sign a contract UNTIL the EP is granted. Again, it's wrong but who's gonna say anything? The Employee? Nah. What, have the employer think you're a trouble maker before you are even hired? Think about it. Most of these people have no hope in their home countries so they've left their wives, kids, to live like a pauper here to earn a crust to feed their families.


Certainly the employer is culpable as well but the employee has no recourse... he knew or should have known the conditions under which he could actually work. It would appear that he chose to look the other way. I'd like to know how he got paid. No work permit, hard to get a bank account to cash a check.

This one is easy. Accounting here is lax. Auditing is ever worse (truth be known). The employer probably only had one or two on the books at a time so therefore they were paid via petty cash as Subcontract Services or something similar (catch-all GL code). To be honest I've seen acompany with almost a quarter of a mil in Subcontract Services from paying guys out of pocket while their passes were being processed.[ Sometimes they just keep a guy on for a couple of months to get what they want out of the guy and then just tell 'em they weren't able to get a work visa. It's sucks. But unfortunately it's done quite a lot. There are always lots of employers who will abuse the system and it's easy when the potential employee is agreeable as they can't find a job otherwise.
V. Walk-in applicants often don't have any sort of paper trail (electronic or otherwise) Most is by phone only. Those through a agent are again a level or two away from the employer. Often they will have a contract with an agent in their home country (that the agent in Singapore utilizes) This puts another layer between the employee and employer even before they get here. The employers have been playing hide and seek with MOM for years......
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Post by Vaucluse » Sun, 05 Jul 2009 10:48 am

So, can we deduce that the guy is English or Irish and works in a 'Financial Consulting' shop?


I appreciate that these things can be done as a walk-in . . . but surely there MUST be something, anything written.

I asked Mrs Hat and she said that the guy can definitely take the company to task, at least for the moving costs and the like.
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Post by sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:08 pm

Vaucluse wrote:So, can we deduce that the guy is English or Irish and works in a 'Financial Consulting' shop?


I appreciate that these things can be done as a walk-in . . . but surely there MUST be something, anything written.

I asked Mrs Hat and she said that the guy can definitely take the company to task, at least for the moving costs and the like.
Couple of things. I just reread this thread and unfortunately, the OP hasn't given us any indication of where he is from, and what kind of company/industry he is in. (It was your "deduce" that prompted that just to refresh my thought processes.) Now I know you need my "tongueincheek" pic. Sometimes you even catch me off guard! :wink:

With a lot of these guys, the moving costs are the airfare only. This is normally the case up to Q1 passes.

Regarding the "paperwork" I can go back to my own hiring where I am at the moment. I received a phone call for an interview. I trucked down there and had a rather long interview that lasted almost 2.5 hours Actually the interview lasted less than 30 minutes and the rest was a good sign that the owner and I would get along pretty good.

Anyway, a couple more phone called transpired and I was told to start work on such & such a date and would sign the letter of appointment on my first day of work. Rather unprofessional in that I didn't have time to study the contract except on my first day of work. (although all had been discussed verbally at the interview) I could have rejected it or accepted it but no real time to study it. Course as a PR I was in a different situation.

What I found out after joining the company is that even our Foreigners on Work Visas are not given any paperwork prior to having their work visa applications approved. The only time they are given a copy of their work permit application is if they have been given a temporary work permit which is a downloadable document with a barcode on it from MOM that they have to carry until the issuance of their work pass (not all are given the temporary permit). At no time are they given any copies of any documents until their pass has been approved. At that time they collect their permit and sign their employment contract and are given a copy at that point. Usually that is the start of the "paper trail". MNC's on the other had tend to have different, more complex methods which will entail a longer and earlier paper trail. In our case, there is not any paper trail at all from before the employee leaves his own country until the time he reaches the point of signing his contract with us.

Until the OP gives us some more information, I don't think we can "suppose" any further as there are these unknowns that have a lot of bearing on the situation.
SOME PEOPLE TRY TO TURN BACK THEIR ODOMETERS. NOT ME. I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW WHY I LOOK THIS WAY. I'VE TRAVELED A LONG WAY, AND SOME OF THE ROADS WEREN'T PAVED. ~ Will Rogers

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Re: Warning from MOM and now doing a visa run- advice needed

Post by JennyZhang » Sun, 05 Jul 2009 12:43 pm

Tainak wrote:Hi All,

My company failed to process my EP and I received a warning from MOM. However the officer who handed out the letter said I would not be issued an EP for the next 12 months. This was not mentioned in the letter.

But is it still true?

The same officer said (again it was NOT written in the letter) that I would not be issued another social visit pass. I'm from a visa- free country and had 90 days stamped in my passport in the airport. Now the 90 days is up and I would still like to stay in Singapore and look for another job.

If I do a visa run to Indonesia what are the chances that they let me back into the country?

Does anybody have experience in a situation like this?

:cry:
Hi , think you have no choice but to go back to your original country for one for two weeks, then come back again using social visit pass to start apply another job as they are not going to giving you any social visit pass in your time in singapore.

And for the EP , they only saying not issueing an EP but doesnt mean cannot apply for S Pass right ?

Cheers !

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Re: Warning from MOM and now doing a visa run- advice needed

Post by Vaucluse » Sun, 05 Jul 2009 1:14 pm

JennyZhang wrote:
Hi , think you have no choice but to go back to your original country for one for two weeks, then come back again using social visit pass to start apply another job as they are not going to giving you any social visit pass in your time in singapore.

And for the EP , they only saying not issueing an EP but doesnt mean cannot apply for S Pass right ?

Cheers !
Well, yes but he is a 'risk' factor . . . and he'd be taking a gamble on yet another airfare to simply be refused entry. Really not worth it unless the job was significant.

sundaymorningstaple wrote:
Until the OP gives us some more information, I don't think we can "suppose" any further as there are these unknowns that have a lot of bearing on the situation.
Indeed, indeed . . . it does sound a bit sus, though.

Re. the papertrail, or lack of it. I don't know how the locals work so I'll bow to your superior knowledge on that. For better or for worse I've only ever worked in Sing for MNCs, big and small and then for myself.

No papertrail . . . frightening
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