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Returning to Singapore after renunciation

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Returning to Singapore after renunciation

Postby bedok » Sun, 28 Jun 2009 11:21 pm

hi, recently I have renounced my singapore citizenship and have met all the requirements like deferment/exit permits and such.

Now, I wonder whether I can go back to singapore without being stopped at the airport because I am a canadian citizen but my passport shows singapore as place of birth? will they check on me????

will I be arrested at the airport even though I have done everything properly???

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:02 am

No. Why should you be? If all has been done as per protocol, then there wouldn't be anything to flag in the database would there.

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Postby bedok » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:52 am

yes, but isn't it so that the deserters return in the same way I do (different passports/citizenships)?? with the exception that I have done everything properly and in time =)

won't such people be checked, questioned or detained at immigration? or would they just get away with it?

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Postby kraikk » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 8:47 am

If by done everything properly you mean becoming Canadian before 11, applying from exit permits from 13 onwards, receiving your deferment at 18 till 21, and renouncing at 21 at a consulate or embassy, and pretty much stayed outside Singapore from 11 onwards, there should not be any problem. You will be treated as a Canadian in Singapore. Birth in Singapore is not a big red flag, unlike some countries (like yours and your neighbour in the south), Singapore does not grant citizenship by birth in the territory. Names, and in these days, biometric features are probably their main indicators.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 9:08 am

kraikk wrote:If by done everything properly you mean becoming Canadian before 11, applying from exit permits from 13 onwards, receiving your deferment at 18 till 21, and renouncing at 21 at a consulate or embassy, and pretty much stayed outside Singapore from 11 onwards, there should not be any problem. You will be treated as a Canadian in Singapore. Birth in Singapore is not a big red flag, unlike some countries (like yours and your neighbour in the south), Singapore does not grant citizenship by birth in the territory. Names, and in these days, biometric features are probably their main indicators.


However........

With the impending creation of the super database that will link all 5 of the major Government databases, it will be, in the future very easy to make the checks based on any passport with a male of NS eligible age (or old for that matter) that fit certain ethnic characteristics, with their date of birth and the Ministry of Defense records for also those born on a certain date of a certain ethnicity while cross checking with the death records and records of renunciations whether or not that individual should be detained for further questioning. It's already on the cards and the creation of this is already taking place (as is photo recognition software currently being implemented along side of the fingerprint recognition software. It's only a matter of time. Oh, all of this was mentioned a couple of months ago in the local daily birdcage liner.

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Postby Sing/Malay » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 9:11 am

Shouldn't you have already been able to return to Singapore after you got your exit permit?

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Postby bedok » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 12:25 pm

Singapore as place of birth is not a red flag? so are you saying that it is not unusual at all for singapore immigration to encounter foreign passports which show singapore as place of birth??

@ sing/malay: I have renounced my sg. citizenship here in canada at the singapore embassy, yes but there was absolutely no time as I was much too immersed in my studies here. But they are now over and I want to travel to Asia, especially Singapore.

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Postby kraikk » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 9:10 pm

bedok wrote:Singapore as place of birth is not a red flag? so are you saying that it is not unusual at all for singapore immigration to encounter foreign passports which show singapore as place of birth??


No not at all. Singapore does not grant citizenship by virtue of birth in the territory. Thousands of foreigners are born every year in Singapore without citizenship because both parents are foreigners. There are also many Singaporean citizens born overseas.

It would not be hard for them to have a registry of Singaporean citizens that raises a flag when someone using a foreign passport is on the citizen database. I have an American friend who was constantly delayed and questioned when entering Singapore on his American passport as a dual citizen. He has since served NS and renounced Singaporean citizenship and has no such problems now.

NS defaulters probably have a huge blinking light on them, along with other criminals.

Sundaymorningstaple: I don't think they'd be on the look out for particular ethnicities, they don't want the Bugge brothers slipping through...

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Postby bedok » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 9:29 pm

so those are all people that were born in singapore and subsequently renounced their citizenship and travel to singapore with foreign passports just like me, right?
but aren't the male foreigners which were born in singapore required to serve NS?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:15 pm

kraikk wrote:
Sundaymorningstaple: I don't think they'd be on the look out for particular ethnicities, they don't want the Bugge brothers slipping through...


You might do well to go back and reread my statement carefully. Once the new system it up and running and all the databases are linked, the standard query might be such that if a traveler, who is of Indian ethnicity (example only) comes through the system, a canned search could narrow down the possibilities via ethnicity, date of birth and also using records of those citizens who have renounced who were born on that date and have not died yet nor have done their NS. It's just one more variable to narrow down the search to as few people as possible. If there is still a question then immigration might pull said individual aside for further questioning. especially if the photo recognition points out some similarities as well (not counting fingerprint records). We don't know what capabilities the system will have and you can bet the government is not gonna tell either.

Think how easy it's going to be to catch them coming back in now. You don't even need to be Bill Gates to see the feasibility.

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Postby bedok » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 10:49 pm

so according to sms's entry it seems that singapore immigration would question every person who enters singapore with a foreign passport with singapore as place of birth
correct me if I should be wrong..

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:21 pm

How hard would it be? And how many coming through the international counters would have Singapore as their birth place (realistically in the course of one day?). Coming through on a Singaporean Passport? No problem, even quicker.

Now lets take it one step further. What if.......

Your passport details had been taken down at the departure counters and the originating country of the flight? How hard would it be to transmit that data to the scheduled airport disembarkation point of that ticket. Remember, the new passports are machine readable and just how much is on the chips I don't know at the moment. Singapore could feasibly already know who, on any given flight, is male, of NS age, was born in Singapore, on what date and what gender and what race. They could feasibly be ready to pick you up at immigration when you get there if all the 't's weren't crossed and all the 'i's weren't dotted.

This is all my imagination at the moment as immigration wont tell anybody what the new system is capable of except that in less than 2 minutes they can access all the data of a query in the multiple databases and come up with a list of possibles. The scenerio is mine, the fact of the superdatabase is very much a fact.

In the words of Dirty Harry:

"I know what you're thinking. You're thinking "did he fire six shots or only five?" Now to tell you the truth I forgot myself in all this excitement. You've gotta ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" (edited for brevity).

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Postby bedok » Tue, 30 Jun 2009 6:01 am

well are there actually many people that come to singapore with different passports but were born in singapore?

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 30 Jun 2009 7:45 am

As I said......

Do you feel lucky? It's only a prison term and a rather large fine........

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Postby jpatokal » Tue, 30 Jun 2009 2:35 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Your passport details had been taken down at the departure counters and the originating country of the flight? How hard would it be to transmit that data to the scheduled airport disembarkation point of that ticket.

Not only would this be difficult to implement, but it would be actively illegal for most countries to start handing out private data like that. There was quite a flap a few years back when the US, hopped up on 9-11, started insisting on advance access to airline passenger manifests from the EU. See: http://epic.org/privacy/intl/passenger_data.html
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