Singapore Expats Forum

Guide to NS issues

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 27 Jul 2010 10:48 pm

There is only one thing wrong with your scenario. If your husband is still holding Singapore Citizenship, they will not give your son a deferment. Especially if the father is still in Singapore. If you son is to escape NS, your husband will have to immigrate and quit any/all financial holding here like CPF & HDB flat ownership. He will also need to renounce his citizenship before applying for your son's deferment in order to prove that your son is immigrating and "not just trying to pull a fast one on the gahmen".

Please be careful. You are going to screw up your son's life big time. He may just learn to hate you at some point in the future when he finds the love of his life here, but she won't leave Singapore and he can't stay here because of the parents thinking they are smarter then the gahmen who have been dealing with NS dodgers for 40 years now. Be very careful.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Wed, 28 Jul 2010 10:10 am

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Last edited by Mad Scientist on Wed, 20 Oct 2010 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 28 Jul 2010 11:26 am

There are so many things wrong with the posters' proposed plan that it is almost impossible to point to anything that they can do that won't ruin the kid's future.

In theory, as the mother is not a citizen, if the child does not take up citizenship (which is possible if the child is born overseas and does not register the birth in Singapore) then if the mother is a PR they should be able to get an LTVP for the child based on the mother. Yes, their marriage cert will defo out the father but should still be able to get a student visa as long as the child is a minor. Once the child finishes school or turns 21, he will be unceremoniously be ejected from Singapore and only allowed back in on a tourist visa and he will never get any sort of work pass/PR/citizenship once he reaches the age of majority. At least that is my understanding.

I know a case of this already where the son was born (in exactly the same scenario) in the UK and went to school here in Singapore throughout till his A levels and is now in Imperial College in London. His father is a Singaporean (my boss - company owner) His mother is European/SPR. He's been here for years on a Student Visa and has no NS liability but he's gonna have a problem if he wants to come back to Singapore without doing NS after he graduates from Uni.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:48 pm

How is it seen by the gahmen if both parents are SPRs, register their child with ICA but do not want to apply for PR for a male child? Should some problems* sooner or later likely be expected?

*) i.e. with REP (parents) or LTSVP (child) renewal.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 28 Jul 2010 1:34 pm

The biggest problem will be upon reaching the age of majority. If it's a girl child, will still be able to get a LTVP for her as long as she is single. But, if it's a boy. He's out of the country. Full Stop. Tourist Visa only and probably without extensions. Wouldn't surprise me if they flagged his passport and refused to renew it if he tried the visa turn-around run as well.

REP? Don't know. No anecdotal evidence or other evidence yet.

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Postby x9200 » Wed, 28 Jul 2010 2:19 pm

It looks like in practical sense it may not be that different from the situation of boy's parents being the SCs.
Do you think there are any benefit for a boy of two PRs to put him first on LTSVP as compared to PR right after the birth?
I think it should be his concious decision whether to do NS in Singapore and enjoy possible future in this country or avoid it with all the consequences. I guess the option with LTSVP and possible PR application anytime before he reaches the age of majority is still reasonably safe and buys some time.

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Postby laoreja » Thu, 17 Mar 2011 6:06 am

i have a ton of sympathy for loki, and am in similar situation myself. i don't know you from adam, but the laws were clearly meant to keep people living in singapore in line, yet it makes it extremely difficult and onerous for folks with deep singapore roots to visit and connect. many in the diaspora are highly successful individuals that can add to the society. yet the society is held to such high standards and scrutiny that they themselves can't see that. melvyn tan had a difficult choice as a young person to develop his future, and brought gifts by declaring himself a singaporean in his biography (could have easily assumed a chinese-briton identity); this was more or less acknowledged by the singaporean government with his reduced penalty, yet there was public uproar over the leniency. would the country be better served had he given up his fledging career and returned to tote a rifle?

loki, just be proud to be aussie, and recognize things for what they are. though singapore as a country and society has made great strides in material wealth, there are still a lot of societal and political issues that are left. not being able to return is an unfortunate ramnification of the societal and political pressures, and most certainly not your fault or flaw.

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Postby bliss5 » Tue, 17 May 2011 2:57 pm

After reading all the posts, does it mean there is no hope for my situation?


My son is soon to be 16.5, at an age where he must register for NS. He is a dual US- Singapore citizen. His Singapore citizenship was obtained after much difficulty - PR and citizenship was rejected several times when he was a young child. I was told that a Singaporean mother cannot easily get PR or citizenship for the child where the father is a foreigner and non-Singapore resident.

For most of my son's early life, he was out of Singapore even after he got citizenship as I just could not afford the cost of living there. Coming back to Singapore for schooling late primary and staying on till secondary happened by accident because of my ill-health and family issues/difficulties with parents much against my will and at much economic cost and difficulty. Now my son is continuing high school in the US with his dad's help. I applied for deferment and was denied, and again after I appealed. I explained all the circumstances, the fact that I myself have no property, no means of living in Singapore long term, and no means of supporting my son if he were to go back to Singapore for NS and that he has every intention of renouncing Singapore citizenship, and that he has a permanent home and roots with his father in the US but none in Singapore. They said they consider each case on a 'case-by-case' basis, but instead they just gave me the standard form answer. More importantly, i just do not have the means to post a bond. How can this be done if it is just not financially possible?
Should I disrupt my son's school here, rent a room for him in Singapore and let him wait till it is time for him to 'serve the country'? so that will not be in violation of the terms of the exit permit? Singapore has caused us extreme hardship and is continuing to dog us. My son has had an NRIC and a Singapore passport -- i was not aware of all these rules before and mostly spent my time out of the country -- but there have been no economic benefits that we enjoyed, only severe economic hardship because of the high cost of living, and much social distress both from the family and society as a divorced Indian woman with a child.

Can somebody please help, tell me what I can do? I certainly do not want my son to be classified a criminal there. There will not be much reason to go back there for social reasons because there are not many family ties there and these can be renewed in India. But he may need to go for work reasons in the future even if temporarily and i want to avoid any blot on his record.
Also, can the parent be held liable in any way if the child does not return or if a bond has not been posted? I will have to return for visa and other reasons even if very briefly. How can they force people to post a bond if they do not have the means to do so , or to retain Singapore citizenship?
Can such a NS "liability" affect one's prospects in other countries in any way?
A surety is not possible either according to the terms laid down and neither do I know of anyone who will be willing to guarantee.
Also, i just do not even have a place to live in Singapore, how will I be able to provide one for my son there now or in the future for his upkeep there? His father provides for him here. Someone please help. They cannot ruin people's lives like this ,can they? The only way out i can see now is high school disruption here and for him to repeat 11th grade onwards there and rent a room and stay by himself -- because i cannot afford even 2 rooms and this too, only until age 18 when child support will stop. and all this to 'serve the country' that he intends to leave anyway???? So he can suffer isolation, loneliness, deprivation, depression (or i can stay with him in the same room and go through all this also??), preform not too well in school which has been the case all these years there, serve the country and come out a nutcase and disadvantaged socially and educationally?
And by which time, he might very likely not have a home in the US either with his father at age 21.
Someone please help.

Who can I talk to? How can I further appeal and make them see that they will totally and utterly further destroy a young person's life, not only his education but any semblance of a family life and a home that he is only now beginning to experience?
Last edited by bliss5 on Wed, 18 May 2011 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 17 May 2011 5:07 pm

I am curious as to why you were so adamant that he take up Singapore citizenship in the first place? It would seem that your insistence is what has caused your son's predicament, not NS.

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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 17 May 2011 5:51 pm

SMS, from my POV having SG citizenship will look good when applying for visa for US. It is the same those from the Peens and Mainland, their next port of call is OZ or US after gaining SG citizenship/PR
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Postby Mad Scientist » Tue, 17 May 2011 6:00 pm

bliss5 wrote:After reading all the posts, does it mean there is no hope for my situation?


My son is soon to be 16.5, at an age where he must register for NS. He is a dual US- Singapore citizen. His Singapore citizenship was obtained after much difficulty - PR and citizenship was rejected several times when he was a young child. I was told that a Singaporean mother cannot easily get PR or citizenship for the child where the father is a foreigner and non-Singapore resident.

For most of my son's early life, he was out of Singapore even after he got citizenship as I just could not afford the cost of living there. Coming back to Singapore for schooling late primary and staying on till secondary happened by accident because of my ill-health and family issues/difficulties with parents much against my will and at much economic cost and difficulty. Now my son is continuing high school in the US with his dad's help. I applied for deferment and was denied, and again after I appealed. I explained all the circumstances, the fact that I myself have no property, no means of living in Singapore long term, and no means of supporting my son if he were to go back to Singapore for NS and that he has every intention of renouncing Singapore citizenship, and that he has a permanent home and roots with his father in the US but none in Singapore. They said they consider each case on a 'case-by-case' basis, but instead they just gave me the standard form answer. More importantly, i just do not have the means to post a bond. How can this be done if it is just not financially possible?
Should I disrupt my son's school here, rent a room for him in Singapore and let him wait till it is time for him to 'serve the country'? so that will not be in violation of the terms of the exit permit? Singapore has caused us extreme hardship and is continuing to dog us. My son has had an NRIC and a Singapore passport -- i was not aware of all these rules before and mostly spent my time out of the country -- but there have been no economic benefits that we enjoyed, only severe economic hardship because of the high cost of living, and much social distress both from the family and society as a divorced Indian woman with a child.

Can somebody please help, tell me what I can do? I certainly do not want my son to be classified a criminal there. There will not be much reason to go back there for social reasons because there are not many family ties there and these can be renewed in India. But he may need to go for work reasons in the future even if temporarily and i want to avoid any blot on his record.
Also, can the parent be held liable in any way if the child does not return or if a bond has not been posted? I will have to return for visa and other reasons even if very briefly. How can they force people to post a bond if they do not have the means to do so , or to retain Singapore citizenship?
Can such a NS "liability" affect one's prospects in other countries in any way?
A surety is not possible either according to the terms laid down and neither do I know of anyone who will be willing to guarantee.
Also, i just do not even have a place to live in Singapore, how will I be able to provide one for my son there now or in the future for his upkeep there? His father provides for him here. Someone please help. They cannot ruin people's lives like this ,can they? The only way out i can see now is high school disruption here and for him to repeat 11th grade onwards there and rent a room and stay by himself -- because i cannot afford even 2 rooms and this too, only until age 18 when child support will stop. and all this to 'serve the country' that he intends to leave anyway???? So he can suffer isolation, loneliness, deprivation, depression (or i can stay with him in the same room and go through all this also??), preform not too well in school which has been the case all these years there, serve the country and come out a nutcase and disadvantaged socially and educationally?
And by which time, he might very likely not have a home in the US either with his father at age 21.
Someone please help.

Who can I talk to? How can I further appeal and make them see that they will totally and utterly further destroy a young person's life, not only his education but any semblance of a family life and a home that he is only now beginning to experience?


The answer for you is easy. You have two choices

1. Delay his studies and send him over to SG for NS. Do not worry about accommodation, the army bunker is good enough and free for the next 2 years for him.

2. Forget about NS liabilities and do not step into SG forever in his life not even in transit.

You can rant and be upset about what the Gahmen policies are. The fact is you are not the first person who try to ditch NS and will not be the last one. Every single one of those male child that try to circumvent this guideline has failed and failed they did BIG TIME.
You want to avoid NS , you should have planned it way before he turn 16. If you can planned in details on your child education, gaining SG citizenship etc, for sure when you would have known about NS liabilities when you received your PINK IC, PP and citizenship as it is splatted right in front of you when you take the oath.
No amount of disgruntled and fumes will make this go away.
Face the music or RUN for your Life and never look back
The positive thinker sees the invisible, feels the intangible, and achieves the impossible.Yahoo !!!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 17 May 2011 7:46 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:SMS, from my POV having SG citizenship will look good when applying for visa for US. It is the same those from the Peens and Mainland, their next port of call is OZ or US after gaining SG citizenship/PR


Yeah, but the kids don't need visas for the US. They are US citizens by birth (just like mine). Only difference was mind are Singapore Citizens by birth as well as their mother gave birth here and not in the US like the poster did. She indicated she needed to jump through hoops to get 'em Sing Citizenship. I'm just wondering why she bothered?

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Postby bliss5 » Tue, 17 May 2011 8:50 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
bliss5 wrote:After reading all the posts, does it mean there is no hope for my situation?


My son is soon to be 16.5, at an age where he must register for NS. He is a dual US- Singapore citizen. His Singapore citizenship was obtained after much difficulty - PR and citizenship was rejected several times when he was a young child. I was told that a Singaporean mother cannot easily get PR or citizenship for the child where the father is a foreigner and non-Singapore resident.

For most of my son's early life, he was out of Singapore even after he got citizenship as I just could not afford the cost of living there. Coming back to Singapore for schooling late primary and staying on till secondary happened by accident because of my ill-health and family issues/difficulties with parents much against my will and at much economic cost and difficulty. Now my son is continuing high school in the US with his dad's help. I applied for deferment and was denied, and again after I appealed. I explained all the circumstances, the fact that I myself have no property, no means of living in Singapore long term, and no means of supporting my son if he were to go back to Singapore for NS and that he has every intention of renouncing Singapore citizenship, and that he has a permanent home and roots with his father in the US but none in Singapore. They said they consider each case on a 'case-by-case' basis, but instead they just gave me the standard form answer. More importantly, i just do not have the means to post a bond. How can this be done if it is just not financially possible?
Should I disrupt my son's school here, rent a room for him in Singapore and let him wait till it is time for him to 'serve the country'? so that will not be in violation of the terms of the exit permit? Singapore has caused us extreme hardship and is continuing to dog us. My son has had an NRIC and a Singapore passport -- i was not aware of all these rules before and mostly spent my time out of the country -- but there have been no economic benefits that we enjoyed, only severe economic hardship because of the high cost of living, and much social distress both from the family and society as a divorced Indian woman with a child.

Can somebody please help, tell me what I can do? I certainly do not want my son to be classified a criminal there. There will not be much reason to go back there for social reasons because there are not many family ties there and these can be renewed in India. But he may need to go for work reasons in the future even if temporarily and i want to avoid any blot on his record.
Also, can the parent be held liable in any way if the child does not return or if a bond has not been posted? I will have to return for visa and other reasons even if very briefly. How can they force people to post a bond if they do not have the means to do so , or to retain Singapore citizenship?
Can such a NS "liability" affect one's prospects in other countries in any way?
A surety is not possible either according to the terms laid down and neither do I know of anyone who will be willing to guarantee.
Also, i just do not even have a place to live in Singapore, how will I be able to provide one for my son there now or in the future for his upkeep there? His father provides for him here. Someone please help. They cannot ruin people's lives like this ,can they? The only way out i can see now is high school disruption here and for him to repeat 11th grade onwards there and rent a room and stay by himself -- because i cannot afford even 2 rooms and this too, only until age 18 when child support will stop. and all this to 'serve the country' that he intends to leave anyway???? So he can suffer isolation, loneliness, deprivation, depression (or i can stay with him in the same room and go through all this also??), preform not too well in school which has been the case all these years there, serve the country and come out a nutcase and disadvantaged socially and educationally?
And by which time, he might very likely not have a home in the US either with his father at age 21.
Someone please help.

Who can I talk to? How can I further appeal and make them see that they will totally and utterly further destroy a young person's life, not only his education but any semblance of a family life and a home that he is only now beginning to experience?


The answer for you is easy. You have two choices

1. Delay his studies and send him over to SG for NS. Do not worry about accommodation, the army bunker is good enough and free for the next 2 years for him.

2. Forget about NS liabilities and do not step into SG forever in his life not even in transit.

You can rant and be upset about what the Gahmen policies are. The fact is you are not the first person who try to ditch NS and will not be the last one. Every single one of those male child that try to circumvent this guideline has failed and failed they did BIG TIME.
You want to avoid NS , you should have planned it way before he turn 16. If you can planned in details on your child education, gaining SG citizenship etc, for sure when you would have known about NS liabilities when you received your PINK IC, PP and citizenship as it is splatted right in front of you when you take the oath.
No amount of disgruntled and fumes will make this go away.
Face the music or RUN for your Life and never look back


not sure about how to reply on this forum, trying it now.

no, was not sure of NS policies. at that time, i just needed to be able to enter and leave the country with my child freely.
Last edited by bliss5 on Tue, 17 May 2011 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bliss5 » Tue, 17 May 2011 8:55 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:I am curious as to why you were so adamant that he take up Singapore citizenship in the first place? It would seem that your insistence is what has caused your son's predicament, not NS.


wasnot adamant about citizenship. was trying to apply for pr. did not know of any other options then to enable my child to be granted a stay for longer than a month in Singapore then. when i approached certain people about this issue for the pr, was granted citizenship instead.
had no idea about all the pre-ns regulations then or in fact, until very recently.
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Postby bliss5 » Tue, 17 May 2011 9:02 pm

Mad Scientist wrote:
bliss5 wrote:After reading all the posts, does it mean there is no hope for my situation?


My son is soon to be 16.5, at an age where he must register for NS. He is a dual US- Singapore citizen. His Singapore citizenship was obtained after much difficulty - PR and citizenship was rejected several times when he was a young child. I was told that a Singaporean mother cannot easily get PR or citizenship for the child where the father is a foreigner and non-Singapore resident.

For most of my son's early life, he was out of Singapore even after he got citizenship as I just could not afford the cost of living there. Coming back to Singapore for schooling late primary and staying on till secondary happened by accident because of my ill-health and family issues/difficulties with parents much against my will and at much economic cost and difficulty. Now my son is continuing high school in the US with his dad's help. I applied for deferment and was denied, and again after I appealed. I explained all the circumstances, the fact that I myself have no property, no means of living in Singapore long term, and no means of supporting my son if he were to go back to Singapore for NS and that he has every intention of renouncing Singapore citizenship, and that he has a permanent home and roots with his father in the US but none in Singapore. They said they consider each case on a 'case-by-case' basis, but instead they just gave me the standard form answer. More importantly, i just do not have the means to post a bond. How can this be done if it is just not financially possible?
Should I disrupt my son's school here, rent a room for him in Singapore and let him wait till it is time for him to 'serve the country'? so that will not be in violation of the terms of the exit permit? Singapore has caused us extreme hardship and is continuing to dog us. My son has had an NRIC and a Singapore passport -- i was not aware of all these rules before and mostly spent my time out of the country -- but there have been no economic benefits that we enjoyed, only severe economic hardship because of the high cost of living, and much social distress both from the family and society as a divorced Indian woman with a child.

Can somebody please help, tell me what I can do? I certainly do not want my son to be classified a criminal there. There will not be much reason to go back there for social reasons because there are not many family ties there and these can be renewed in India. But he may need to go for work reasons in the future even if temporarily and i want to avoid any blot on his record.
Also, can the parent be held liable in any way if the child does not return or if a bond has not been posted? I will have to return for visa and other reasons even if very briefly. How can they force people to post a bond if they do not have the means to do so , or to retain Singapore citizenship?
Can such a NS "liability" affect one's prospects in other countries in any way?
A surety is not possible either according to the terms laid down and neither do I know of anyone who will be willing to guarantee.
Also, i just do not even have a place to live in Singapore, how will I be able to provide one for my son there now or in the future for his upkeep there? His father provides for him here. Someone please help. They cannot ruin people's lives like this ,can they? The only way out i can see now is high school disruption here and for him to repeat 11th grade onwards there and rent a room and stay by himself -- because i cannot afford even 2 rooms and this too, only until age 18 when child support will stop. and all this to 'serve the country' that he intends to leave anyway???? So he can suffer isolation, loneliness, deprivation, depression (or i can stay with him in the same room and go through all this also??), preform not too well in school which has been the case all these years there, serve the country and come out a nutcase and disadvantaged socially and educationally?
And by which time, he might very likely not have a home in the US either with his father at age 21.
Someone please help.

Who can I talk to? How can I further appeal and make them see that they will totally and utterly further destroy a young person's life, not only his education but any semblance of a family life and a home that he is only now beginning to experience?


The answer for you is easy. You have two choices

1. Delay his studies and send him over to SG for NS. Do not worry about accommodation, the army bunker is good enough and free for the next 2 years for him.

2. Forget about NS liabilities and do not step into SG forever in his life not even in transit.

You can rant and be upset about what the Gahmen policies are. The fact is you are not the first person who try to ditch NS and will not be the last one. Every single one of those male child that try to circumvent this guideline has failed and failed they did BIG TIME.
You want to avoid NS , you should have planned it way before he turn 16. If you can planned in details on your child education, gaining SG citizenship etc, for sure when you would have known about NS liabilities when you received your PINK IC, PP and citizenship as it is splatted right in front of you when you take the oath.
No amount of disgruntled and fumes will make this go away.
Face the music or RUN for your Life and never look back



how do you mean delay his studies?
he is in high school now and they need a bond which i am unable to post.
am i to disrupt his high school, send him back to sg to await NS? even if we were willing for him to go back to do ns after high school, how can this be done without a bond?
bliss5


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