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Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby x9200 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015 6:59 pm

^I had the same thoughts. The judge would surely be interested in seeing this sort of statements of the LL.

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby JR8 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015 7:03 pm

... the LL conveniently digs his own grave before 'Judge Chew-Lee' 8-)
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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby LL8 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015 8:23 pm

Thanks guys,

Question is I have to still pass throught the first gate on mediation part before the adjudication drama. For registrar he may try to compromise on the money first. For such a clear case if I said zero compromise would that create a weak point on the second round?

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 29 Dec 2015 8:54 pm

JR8 wrote:Haha, If I were you I'd definitely incorporate that communication within the bundle of evidence presented with the case: The 'judge' is just going to LOVE that .... oh yes! :o :lol:

^^^^ This!! :lol:

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby x9200 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015 8:54 pm

On the LL's list, is there anything that could be considered as a defect or damage that acting reasonably was not possible to detect during the hand-over inspection? What I mean, is like that you could have mislead him camouflaging some damage or (an example) a washing machine turning off after 5 min of washing etc. etc.?

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby JR8 » Tue, 29 Dec 2015 11:01 pm

Perhaps it might help to consider when something can be mediated or settled prior to a hearing. I think there can be merit to be gained from demonstrating a willingness to negotiate/settle when it is reasonable, rather than sticking it out for *hours* arguing over every last single cent (a good way to P off the judge). But I also think that by definition mediation applies to matters that are subjective. Such things might be:
- The flat came with a set of crockery, and you have broken a plate. Do you pay the value of one plate, or for the whole set?
[considerations: Was it all one matching set? Can the one item be replaced, or can it only be bought as a set? etc].
- The flat came with a white leather armchair. Your child took a marker pen and drew on the back of it. The chair was expensive but is now 8 years old: What is the damage worth?
[considerations: What is the reasonable life-span for such a chair, hence what is it's value (depreciated value/purchase px) at the point of your moving out. Could it be professionally cleaned, or re-upholstered? etc].

By contrast, IMO, your situation is far more black and white. You did the check-out, in front of witnesses, and no deductions were noted or required. As such, to me, I find it hard to identify anything that can be compromised on at this time. I don't think such a position weakens your case. Perhaps you can note somewhere on the forms that you have considered areas for compromise per the guidance notes, and understand the purpose of doing so, but in what appears to you to be a readily quantifiable case, have been unable to identify any.

p.s. Agree with X9 re: anything later found that you might have intentionally tried to hide from the check-out process. But I don't think the example of the malfunctioning washing machine is a particularly good example, unless it's malfunctioning was caused by your own negligence. Perhaps a more clear-cut example would be... you scratched the hard-wood floor, then moved a sofa to hide it. The scratch wasn't noticed at the check-out. Even then I think the LL would have to prove that you had specifically and intentionally sought to deceive to have any hope of merit in his claim after the check-out, 'after the fact'.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby LL8 » Wed, 30 Dec 2015 12:13 am

Guys,

All electric appliances functioned well and sound. Have paid $300 on cleaning the day before handover which is not required in the contract but for cleanliness purpose I did it. Dry clean curtain receipt provided. But LL not satisfy (dusty) and said redone is needed. He took some hard core photos like trace of dripping as a result of cleaning. A close up photo of dust at the back of fridge (only one inch gap from the wall, if you want to clean it you have to move the whole fridge out). A key ring plastic is broken need to be replaced (but of course the keys are not affected).

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby x9200 » Wed, 30 Dec 2015 8:16 am

LL8, I would not be afraid of a zero compromise response, but to manage the situation I would provide elaborative reasoning. If possible, address the claims from the LL's list. e.g. show in the hearing the proof for the curtain cleaning and the overall cleaning, things like that. In other words, do not rely alone on the letter of discharge but try to show that even having it all what you have done was right and the demands of the LL are simply not reasonable.

JR8, the washing machine example was to illustrate the category of the damages that may fall under shared responsibility of the tenant and the LL. Within the contract timeframe, if something gets broken, the tenant typically pays some amount (i.e. $150) and the LL covers the rest. But if the damage is not reported within the term for whatever reason, then it's just a damaged good and the whole responsibility to have it restored is IMHO with the tenant. But I agree, that the burden of proof is generally here on the LL.

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby JR8 » Wed, 30 Dec 2015 5:42 pm

When I wrote...
'Perhaps you can note somewhere on the forms that you have considered areas for compromise per the guidance notes, and understand the purpose of doing so, but in what appears to you to be a readily quantifiable case, have been unable to identify any.'

Apologies: I'd change the wording, and the thinking, I'd say readily quantifiable claim, not case. It's not a good idea to be seen to lead the judge to a conclusion, stick to the facts. Your claim is something you can readily quantify.

p.s. X9, yep I see... I'd overlooked the SGn approach of split liability for repairs.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:20 am

JR8 wrote:... the LL conveniently digs his own grave before 'Judge Chew-Lee' 8-)


Where's the "Like" button?

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 31 Dec 2015 8:08 am

Here you go, SE! Oh, and Happy New Year!

Image

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby JR8 » Thu, 31 Dec 2015 4:48 pm

Hey, I'm just glad someone got it ;-D

Happy New Year all!
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 01 Jan 2016 4:58 am

And a very happy new year to you as well, SMS!

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby Marine2011 » Fri, 08 Jan 2016 4:40 pm

Dear Member,

I have received a letter from my landlords lawyer claiming SGD 56’280 from me. Let me give you a chronology of the events and supporting documents.

I would appreciate it if anyone could let me know how to proceed, as I want to avoid any mistakes in dealing with this matter.

Chronology:

- January 9, 2014: Tenancy Agreement signed for a period of 2+1 years

- January 11, 2014: Tenancy Agreement takes effect

- March 10, 2014: Received notice from landlord that the apartment is scheduled to be sold on April 14, 2014

- April 7, 2014: Received notice that sale of the apartment has been completed on April 7, 2014 and that ownership has been transferred

- October 10, 2015: Written notice for Option to Renew as per Clause 5.3 in the Tenancy Agreement should have been given latest by this day (“not less than 3 calendar months before the expiration of the tenancy”)

*I have not given written notice by the deadline

- November 16, 2015: First contact was made by the landlord with me directly to set up a meeting in person to discuss an extension of the Tenancy Agreement

- November 20, 2015: Meeting with landlord and his agent (who was introduced as a friend, hence I did not see a need to invite my agent to the meeting). A general understanding was reached that both parties are interested to renew the Tenancy Agreement but terms still under discussion.

- Rest of November 2015: Discussions back and forth regarding the terms of the renewal, mainly between myself and the landlord’s wife

- December 2, 2015: Agreement reached to renew the Tenancy Agreement

- December 11, 2015: Received new Tenancy Agreement, which was never signed

- December 19, 2015: Informed the landlord by phone that I would not be signing the new Tenancy Agreement

- January 10, 2016: Tenancy Agreement expires


Additional Notes:

To better understand why I have decided not to renew the Tenancy Agreement, although we had reached an agreement via WhatsApp has various reasons. First and foremost, it becomes evident in the communication that the negotiations were very painstaking and not necessarily in my favor considering market conditions. I did not feel treated fairly but in the end still compromised after making several proposals. However, as can also be read in the communication, the apartment was posted online and the landlord asked me to accommodate viewings whenever possible. I advised that I will do so, my only request was that pictures that were taken of the apartment would not be uploaded online to advertise the apartment, as I felt that this would invade my privacy. This was verbally communicated to the landlord during the meeting on November 20, 2015 and to all agents that viewed the apartment. By coincidence, my fiancée discovered pictures of our apartment on ..com on December 18, 2015. We felt that the landlord misused our trust and after the negotiations during which we already didn’t feel comfortable, we decided not to sign the Tenancy Agreement and look for a new apartment instead. We informed the landlord accordingly on December 19, 2015. After talking to the landlord, I received a call from his wife who threatened to take legal actions against me, as is also documented.

As I am not familiar with the Singapore law, anyone know how to handle? Do I need to get a lawyer as well?

TIA
Last edited by Marine2011 on Fri, 08 Jan 2016 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

Postby JR8 » Fri, 08 Jan 2016 5:09 pm

So you took a two lease, did not conclude negotiating an extension, and [presumably] are now moving out after those 2 years on 10Jan16? And the landlord is now claiming what a year's rent? What is their basis for doing so, what does the lawyer explain? They have to at least attempt to justify why such a sum is alleged to be due? Right now it sounds rather like a like lawyer churning client fees on the promise of getting some 'free money' from you. But the starting point (IMHO) is why it is alleged this sum is due, when no contract was concluded/exists.

p.s. I suggest you edit your post to take out the specific address, it adds nothing to the question but leaves this discussion searchable on Google etc. by the likes of your LL etc.
'Do it or do not do it: You will regret both' - Kierkegaard


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