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Tenancy agreements/leases and your rights as a tenant

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angrytenant
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Postby angrytenant » Thu, 16 May 2013 12:13 pm

x9200 wrote:If the TA is between the LL and the company you have to sue the company as you are not in any legal agreement with the LL. How was the deposit handled (when yoo paid it and to whom and under what legal circumstances)? Are there any document related to the deposit hand over?



I have paid the deposit to the company by cheque. Also have a written confirmation from the company's HR that deposit is payable to me upon receipt from landlord by the company.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 16 May 2013 1:35 pm

x9200 wrote:If the TA is between the LL and the company you have to sue the company as you are not in any legal agreement with the LL.


Agreed.

The landlord has sensed that the employer is not interested in pursuing the matter, hence the impasse.

But before you take legal action, you need to need to write to the employer and give them a chance to return your deposit, otherwise you will 'regrettably have to put the matter in the hands of my lawyers'.

p.s. You don't need a lawyer. This should all be pretty straight-forward. Worst case is taking it to the SCT.

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 16 May 2013 1:39 pm

it does not look good and you act wisely looking for a layer. It will depend imho on a thin balance between your due delligence as the de facto tenant, the company as the deposit holder and how far the company should go to recover it from the LL. Also I don't think this is in the jurisdiction of SCT.

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Postby angrytenant » Thu, 16 May 2013 2:13 pm

JR8 wrote:
x9200 wrote:If the TA is between the LL and the company you have to sue the company as you are not in any legal agreement with the LL.


Agreed.

The landlord has sensed that the employer is not interested in pursuing the matter, hence the impasse.

But before you take legal action, you need to need to write to the employer and give them a chance to return your deposit, otherwise you will 'regrettably have to put the matter in the hands of my lawyers'.

p.s. You don't need a lawyer. This should all be pretty straight-forward. Worst case is taking it to the SCT.


Well, I have already written to them, but no harm in writing to them once more asking them to return the deposit. I have already indicated my intention to sue the company.

I am seeking a preliminary opinion of a lawyer, precisely to ascertain where I stand w.r.t. 1) my ex-employer 2) the landlord and who should I be taking to court. I am aware that if it is SCT, I will have to represent my case myself.

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Postby angrytenant » Thu, 16 May 2013 2:18 pm

x9200 wrote:it does not look good and you act wisely looking for a layer. It will depend imho on a thin balance between your due delligence as the de facto tenant, the company as the deposit holder and how far the company should go to recover it from the LL. Also I don't think this is in the jurisdiction of SCT.


Ok. I am trying to get to a lawyer precisely to ascertain what you say above. Who should pursue the return of deposit with landlord? What are my legal rights and obligations wrt 1) my ex-employer and 2) the landlord.

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Postby AngMoG » Thu, 16 May 2013 4:22 pm

IMO, you do not have any legal standing towards your landlord. Actually, it's not even "your" landlord, but your company's. Your "contract" is with your ex-employer - they have a contract with "your" ex-landlord, but that is their legal problem, not yours. At least, that's my opinion, I think best to ask an actual lawyer.

If you want to take legal action, it needs to be against your company, for failing to return your deposit.

Send a demand letter from your side (with a short deadline of about a week or so), and send it by registered mail. This likely will not work, but it shows that you acted in good faith. Meanwhile, seek the advice of a lawyer, who will most likely already charge you at this point. The lawyer will most likely also need to send another demand letter once the above deadline runs out (with its own deadline of 1-2 weeks), basically showing that you have tried everything, and as a prelude to legal action. Ask for the full deposit btw, you can negotiate it down later.

I would also suggest, if possible, to go for an official mediation involving you, your company, and the landlord (the landlord does not "have to" be there, but it would certainly be better). I am not sure if this applies in your legal situation, though.

Once you have made the risk and cost/benefit analyses, you should decide whether or not to go ahead with legal action. Remember that you only get up to 40% (or was it 60%?) of your legal costs even if you win. Settle if you can get most of your deposit back.

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 16 May 2013 6:27 pm

angrytenant wrote:
x9200 wrote:it does not look good and you act wisely looking for a layer. It will depend imho on a thin balance between your due delligence as the de facto tenant, the company as the deposit holder and how far the company should go to recover it from the LL. Also I don't think this is in the jurisdiction of SCT.


Ok. I am trying to get to a lawyer precisely to ascertain what you say above. Who should pursue the return of deposit with landlord?

Only the company can do it. The problem is I feel they have really not too much obligations of doing it. That's why I think you need a lawyer to see what less obvious options you may have.
It is like there were two independents agreements, one between the LL and the company; 2nd between the company and you.

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Postby angrytenant » Thu, 16 May 2013 9:29 pm

x9200 wrote:
angrytenant wrote:
x9200 wrote:it does not look good and you act wisely looking for a layer. It will depend imho on a thin balance between your due delligence as the de facto tenant, the company as the deposit holder and how far the company should go to recover it from the LL. Also I don't think this is in the jurisdiction of SCT.


Ok. I am trying to get to a lawyer precisely to ascertain what you say above. Who should pursue the return of deposit with landlord?

Only the company can do it. The problem is I feel they have really not too much obligations of doing it. That's why I think you need a lawyer to see what less obvious options you may have.
It is like there were two independents agreements, one between the LL and the company; 2nd between the company and you.


Quite right. They do not feel obligated to help me recover my deposit. They dont lose anything in the process and hence if I suppose if I have to drag them into this dispute, I have to file a suit against them. That is the only route I have to keep them involved.

Any suggestions for lawyer would be very much appreciated.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 16 May 2013 10:10 pm

angrytenant wrote:I am seeking a preliminary opinion of a lawyer, precisely to ascertain where I stand


IME their position will be -
- You have a black and white case
- 'We'll win this easily
- Our fees will thus be very reasonable.


But then, in the event, there will be protracted complications (likely spurred (i.e. caused by) your lawyer) and the bills will rocket.

Bills gone to 2*, 3*, 5* budget? What to do, give up when you've 'invested' so much money and time already?

There is a reason lawyers have such a BAD rap : You've been warned, and you will not somehow magically be different or immune to this!

p.s. I think an issue is that some people go to lawyers and use them like agony aunts/uncles, dumping their woes on them. Sure they love this at $500/hr. You have to be clinical and focused... know what you're trying to do, just needing coaching on the precise details of how to frame it in a bullet-proof legal fashion...

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 16 May 2013 10:25 pm

The lawyer should be primarily contacted at this stage for an opinion and angrytenant seems to be more than capable of telling a cheap BS from the truth whatever the later is going to be.

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Postby JR8 » Thu, 16 May 2013 11:10 pm

30+ years after engaging my first lawyer, they still treat me like a bloated thick tart, willing to be lead around by the nose at x$000 an hour. Strange how, I use architects, interior designers etc., but lawyers are always complete a-holes.


Lawyers are parasites (being polite!)....

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Postby x9200 » Thu, 16 May 2013 11:37 pm

We once engaged one associate from a well know, top law local firm and despite him pushing for various semi-related approaches we got exactly what we wanted plus some extras. It was worth it. Funny enough It ended up they quit first.

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Postby angrytenant » Fri, 17 May 2013 9:04 am

JR8 wrote:
angrytenant wrote:I am seeking a preliminary opinion of a lawyer, precisely to ascertain where I stand


IME their position will be -
- You have a black and white case
- 'We'll win this easily
- Our fees will thus be very reasonable.


But then, in the event, there will be protracted complications (likely spurred (i.e. caused by) your lawyer) and the bills will rocket.

Bills gone to 2*, 3*, 5* budget? What to do, give up when you've 'invested' so much money and time already?

There is a reason lawyers have such a BAD rap : You've been warned, and you will not somehow magically be different or immune to this!

p.s. I think an issue is that some people go to lawyers and use them like agony aunts/uncles, dumping their woes on them. Sure they love this at $500/hr. You have to be clinical and focused... know what you're trying to do, just needing coaching on the precise details of how to frame it in a bullet-proof legal fashion...


Noted JR8. Your observations are valid and I have drawn a line as to how much I will spend on lawyers. My current feeling is that I have been cheated and I dont want to leave this issue until I make all reasonable efforts of recovering my money.

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Postby AngMoG » Fri, 17 May 2013 10:22 am

angrytenant wrote:Noted JR8. Your observations are valid and I have drawn a line as to how much I will spend on lawyers. My current feeling is that I have been cheated and I dont want to leave this issue until I make all reasonable efforts of recovering my money.


Fair enough. I previously engaged a lawyer for a dispute with my former employer after resigning (he tried to cheat me out of my last month's salary). It was a pretty clear-cut case, I ended up spending $600-700 after filing a case in court and settling.

IMO, Singapore's legal system strongly encourages parties in private disputes to settle. Once a case in court is filed, the other party should wake up and think along the lines of "oh, wait, he's serious... so what is my case? Oh crap. Let's just settle this." (at least that's what happened with my case.)

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Where to find this?

Postby amoon » Wed, 05 Jun 2013 12:00 am

[quote="jpatokal"]Normally the tenant pays the stamp duty, but it's the agent/landlord's duty to actually handle the stamping, and the tenant should get a copy of the receipt to prove that it's been done.[/quote]

Is it on any website I did not read it anywhere? I do not know how to pay but owner told me do it. If owner must I need to find it so I can show him.

Thanks


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