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Divorce support groups in Singapore??

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psadlo
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everything happens for a reason

Postby psadlo » Mon, 02 Nov 2009 2:13 am

ladies, let's move on... i know it's tough and I have been thru a divorce years ago.

into my 2nd marriage now and been happier than ever for the last 2 years with my 2nd husband. u need a bad fall in order to open up your eyes n see beyond.

take every mistake as a good lesson n live life well... keep healthy n fit!

within each of us you can find strength!

local2009
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Postby local2009 » Mon, 02 Nov 2009 3:41 pm

Chanced upon this website...I am not sure if this will help.

http://divorcesupport.meetup.com/506/

Take care

injured
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Postby injured » Tue, 03 Nov 2009 10:34 pm

Another sad story is coming. 10 years relationship, coming to an end. The feeling of being ‘betrayed’ and ‘dumped’ is so painful. The pain is getting harder to calm each and every day. Currently undergoing the legal procedure. Everyday is just another day of sadness to me. Understand there is no one to help other than me helping myself. Sad to say, I have lost interest in almost everything in life.
Anyone has anything to say to me?

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Postby woman_chartered » Wed, 04 Nov 2009 8:57 am

Chance upon this topic accidentally and I'm hoping to get a better understanding of different legislations governing divorce cases across jurisdictions.

My bf is currently in the process of finishing up his divorce. From what I understand, they got married in Europe about 7 years ago. He came to Singapore to work 2 years back and the plan is for her to join her 1 year later. However, she got pregnant instead (not with his seed since he is on the other side of the planet) and the only option is to divorce. She owned the house in Europe but he is paying for the mortgage. In addition, all his monies and savings went to her business back in Europe. Of course after she break the news to him, he stopped sending money to her.

I understand that she is in the process of selling the house and is buying a new house with her new bf in France. He recently received a lawyer's letter stating that he have no claims over her new place in France. He also mentioned that he have no right over any monies on the house or her business, during the entire divorce proceedings, even though she is the obvious one cheating on him. If he try to fight for any monies he had contributed into the marriage, he will end up having to pay alimony which work out to be a worse off position on a long run.

He didn't cheat on her throughout the marriage or do anything up to months after he is "informed" of his ex's pregnancy (largely because he was in shock and was extremely depressed). We only started dating about a year after they decide to proceed to divorce. From what I understand, his divorce proceedings will be finally completed around the middle of next year.

I am trying to understand that everyone seems to claim Singapore have Woman's Chartered but pardon my understanding on family law, but I think in Singapore, if a woman cheat, there is no way she will get any alimony. In addition to that, I understand that they have filed to divorce under amiable grounds but the divorce proceedings seems to be extremely long and somewhat torturous for my bf.

From my perspective, it seems like she took all his money, got herself pregnant, and run away to France and buy her lover a new house while my bf is left with nothing, at least monetary wise.

Anyone who is familiar with European vs Singapore law, please help me understand
1) why is the divorce proceeding taking so long?
2) why doesn't my bf get any right to his money/investment when his ex is the one cheating?

This is purely for my personal understanding. Thanks!

And nope, they have no kids, fortunately.

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Postby k1w1 » Wed, 04 Nov 2009 10:54 pm

woman_chartered wrote:Chance upon this topic accidentally and I'm hoping to get a better understanding of different legislations governing divorce cases across jurisdictions.

My bf is currently in the process of finishing up his divorce. From what I understand, they got married in Europe about 7 years ago. He came to Singapore to work 2 years back and the plan is for her to join her 1 year later. However, she got pregnant instead (not with his seed since he is on the other side of the planet) and the only option is to divorce. She owned the house in Europe but he is paying for the mortgage. In addition, all his monies and savings went to her business back in Europe. Of course after she break the news to him, he stopped sending money to her.

I understand that she is in the process of selling the house and is buying a new house with her new bf in France. He recently received a lawyer's letter stating that he have no claims over her new place in France. He also mentioned that he have no right over any monies on the house or her business, during the entire divorce proceedings, even though she is the obvious one cheating on him. If he try to fight for any monies he had contributed into the marriage, he will end up having to pay alimony which work out to be a worse off position on a long run.

He didn't cheat on her throughout the marriage or do anything up to months after he is "informed" of his ex's pregnancy (largely because he was in shock and was extremely depressed). We only started dating about a year after they decide to proceed to divorce. From what I understand, his divorce proceedings will be finally completed around the middle of next year.

I am trying to understand that everyone seems to claim Singapore have Woman's Chartered but pardon my understanding on family law, but I think in Singapore, if a woman cheat, there is no way she will get any alimony. In addition to that, I understand that they have filed to divorce under amiable grounds but the divorce proceedings seems to be extremely long and somewhat torturous for my bf.

From my perspective, it seems like she took all his money, got herself pregnant, and run away to France and buy her lover a new house while my bf is left with nothing, at least monetary wise.

Anyone who is familiar with European vs Singapore law, please help me understand
1) why is the divorce proceeding taking so long?
2) why doesn't my bf get any right to his money/investment when his ex is the one cheating?

This is purely for my personal understanding. Thanks!

And nope, they have no kids, fortunately.


I'm no lawyer but it sounds like she owned the property before they married. Therefore, it's hers. Also sounds like the business is hers, and not theirs... Cheating on her husband, moral issues aside, does not mean that he can take away her assets, or make claims on assets she has in her name. (In fact, the reasons for divorce are not even considered relevant in many countries, and would probably not make a lot of difference in dividing up matrimonial property.)

You don't walk away from a marriage and get to take back what you put in, even if you are the wronged party. Your boyfriend made the choice to send his money back to Europe.

Divorce is a long process. Most marriages are not dissolved for about two years after separation.

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Postby woman_chartered » Thu, 05 Nov 2009 8:49 am

Thanks! Now I understand how it work.

I guess for him, he thought that since they are married, there is no necessity to have clear distinction in whose name is on the paper. Of course, when the unfortunate divorce happen, the person with the name on the right paper wins.

Thanks again!

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k1w1
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Postby k1w1 » Thu, 05 Nov 2009 9:20 am

Obviously, he will need legal advice from a person with all the information and actual expertise in the legal system they intend to dissolve their marriage under.

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Postby woman_chartered » Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57 am

Actually, he is legally trained but I am not. Which is why I am trying to understand which angle he is coming from. Even though he tells me everything, I try not to question too much about his (previous) decision/s.

But thanks!

missjane
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Postby missjane » Fri, 13 Nov 2009 4:01 pm

to my knowledge:

5 grounds to challenge the marriage (or to prove it has irretrievably broken down) in Singapore:
unreasonable behavior
adultry
desertion
3 year separation with consent
4 year separation without consent

division of assets:
parties present evidence of their contribution to the 'home', the court will then decide.

child custody:
main consideration of the court: what's best for the child
if the child is a minor, ask him/her wish first
court is more inclined to give it to the mother when the child is young

maintenance:
in normal circumstances, husband has the obligation to maintain both the wife and the child

* the above applies to marriages that fall in the scope of Singapore jurisdiction.


Better consult a lawyer for legal advice (some may not charge for the first meeting).

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Postby woman_chartered » Mon, 16 Nov 2009 8:33 am

Thanks missjane.

I think he was concerned that his wife might challenge the marriage under "desertion" because he came to Singapore to work (even though majority of his salary went to funding her failing business back in Europe).

A new situation pop up over the weekend. His ex emailed him that she is giving birth (yes, the seed of her lover) and her business is failing (again). She said she needed more money and asked if he can lend her some (obviously she meant give, since we concluded that she will never return any money back).

I told him the decision is ultimately his, but I pointed out the following points
- She is obviously disinterested in his life, because she didn't even ask "Hi, how are you? Is everything ok for you, etc". It went straight to, "I am giving birth and my business is not making a profit. Do you have some money to lend?"
- Once he said yes, she will keep coming back for more money.
- She just bought a house in France recently (about 2 months back). Whether she paid the house in full, or paid an initial deposit, its pretty clear that she has (or had) money. He received a legal notice that he has no legal rights on her new property and it seems like she is very clear what she is doing.

His concern is she will not show up in the final legal proceedings, April next year. But I responded that she is giving birth in 2 months time. Her focus and priority should be on her first born, and if she try to play dirty in the final legal proceedings in hope to get more money from him (instead of giving her child a legitimate identity, e.g. marrying the real father), then I really wish the best for the child.

He doesn't have anyone to talk to, regarding his divorce, beside me. And I had never gone through a divorce, so I am not sure if my opinion was too harsh? Any opinions from the divorcee/s?

Yali80
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Get a French lawyer - ASAP

Postby Yali80 » Thu, 19 Nov 2009 12:38 am

Quote: I think he was concerned that his wife might challenge the marriage under "desertion" because he came to Singapore to work (even though majority of his salary went to funding her failing business back in Europe).

Hi,

sorry to hear about your problems.

That said I think you have fallen prey to a common misunderstanding. Under the law of those continental European countries who have abolished the principle of fault, it doesn't matter what are the grounds upon which the divorce is granted. Be it "desertion" or any other ones. As it has been said here before "moral issues" do generally not play any role in the separation of assets.

That said, being a continental European trained lawyer (not French though) much of what you mentioned strikes me as bizarre - to say the least. It is definitely correct that your husband has no claim to the house, be it the new or the old one, as long as these were solely in his ex's name.

However, the gain accumulated during the marriage will generally be split evenly.

To give you an example: If your bf had possessed 0 Euro when he married and his wife possessed a house of a value of 400.000 Euro, which however was mortgaged by 100% and by the day of the filing of the divorce your bf still possessed 0 Euro, his soon to be ex-wife however a house which would only be mortgaged by 50% the result would be the following:

Your bf would have gained 0 Euro during the marriage.
His ex 200.000 Euro to the marriage.

The difference of what one partner has gained more compared to the other would be split by half. In this case your bf would have a claim to a payment of 100.000 Euro upon divorce.

Remember: It doesn't matter who was "at fault", French law treats the couple as one during the marriage and then splits the "profits" of the marriage 50/50. Technically it would therefore not matter who earned the money or paid it for whom or for what.

Based on the 2 international divorce cases I have handled and that involved a divorce under French law I know that this is the principle of separation of assets if the parties did not enter into any other legal agreement.

That said, there are exceptions based on what is called the principle of "equity" in a common law legal system. The cheating doesn't play a role here and the fact that money was paid on mortgages for her house doesn't matter either, since if he had kept all the money for himself he would have to pay it now (remember 50/50). If he paid more than 50% of what he earned more than she did for her possessions he will get them back (remember 50/50). With the money paid for her company however it might be a different story, especially since assets can have a different value on paper than what there productive value is.

Except for the above, I am sorry if I feel compelled to straighten you out a bit. No person trained in any continental European legal system - let alone French law - could ever come up with such a striking misrepresentation as it speaks from your understanding of what your bf supposedly said.

Therefore I see three possibilities:

1. You completely misunderstood him, which is probable since law language doesn't translate at all in everyday words.

2. He misrepresented the situation to you.

3. He actually still cares for his ex and can't let go, in which case I would strongly urge you to kick him till he wakes up.

In any event the whole idea he seems to have about his legal situation has - based on your facts - not the slightest relation to Europe's legal reality.

Besides, the divorce of two people married in France, having lived together in France will only be heard by a French court according to French law - unless they both are of Singaporean nationality. So do yourself a favour and stop researching Singapore law which has nothing in common with the situation in continental Europe.

Therefore: GET A FRENCH LAWYER - NOW!

(Sorry for the rude language in this post but someone who seriously bases his financial future on what the other parties’ lawyer said must have at least one serious issue – so get someone to help you/him).

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Postby ksl » Thu, 19 Nov 2009 1:46 am

I agree 100% with the above poster.... No matter what, in divorce proceedings you are allowed to present your case. In most normal cases the assets will be split 50/50 unless there has been a pre-martial agreement in writing to state otherwise.

Though adultry has always been very difficult to prove, a pregnancy may open the doors to a third party claim in certain Countries against the said culprit that made her pregnant. If the case is not defended it is highly likely that winner takes all, a clean knockout, becuase the other half relinquished his legal claim. Just my 2 cents, and I'm not a legal person, though i have suffered the same.

The other bad news is that hubby may have to pay her alimony until she gets remarried, depending on her financial situation and his....the boyfriend living in the new house in France is not clear cut, you will have to prove, they are cohibiting. he could be renting a room! The other problem maybe the baby isn't her present boyfriends too, if she's been enjoying life to the full :roll: Think about it, much to get sorted

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Postby woman_chartered » Thu, 19 Nov 2009 8:20 am

Thank you both for your responses!

Yali80> Please correct my understanding if I am wrong

1) I was told that he have relinquished all his legal claims because he want the divorce to be settled as soon as possible. This allow him to cut all ties and move on with his life. Hence, I am pretty sure that he have zero feelings for the ex.

2) He said if he don't relinquished his legal claims to his wife's current assets (the 50/50 principle you were mentioning), he will need to pay her alimony. Hence, they both agreed that he will relinquish his legal claims on her assets (since she had sold her old house and bought the new house) and she will not claim alimony from him. He has no interest in any assets she owns, or her. His only interest is to conclude the divorce asap and move on with his life.

My query is more along the line, if he pull the "hard ball" and refuse to give her any money (now that she is asking for money from him), does it gives her any (legal) right to not show up in Court during the final legal proceedings, and subsequently claim that she demand alimony from him?

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Postby Yali80 » Thu, 19 Nov 2009 11:27 pm

Quote: 1) I was told that he have relinquished all his legal claims because he want the divorce to be settled as soon as possible. This allow him to cut all ties and move on with his life. Hence, I am pretty sure that he have zero feelings for the ex.

You are right, I kind of wrote the opposite of what I should have figured. Actually, you should be more worried about the possibility that the whole situation is taking such an enormous emotional toll on him, that he is making highly uniformed short term decisions in a matter which concerns assets earned during 10 years of precious life time. Indeed it seems more like he would do anything to get it over with and his soon to be ex-wife seems to be so enormously cold blooded that this emotional imparity is almost certainly going to result in a "the bitch takes it all" result.

Quote: 2) He said if he don't relinquished his legal claims to his wife's current assets (the 50/50 principle you were mentioning), he will need to pay her alimony. Hence, they both agreed that he will relinquish his legal claims on her assets (since she had sold her old house and bought the new house) and she will not claim alimony from him.

First of all, whether a spouse is entitled to alimony, while being pregnant from another man and therefore not able to work in order to support herself depends on the national law. That said, if already the national law does not deny such a claim based on a primary obligation of the father of the child or on equitable grounds, payment by the husband will at least result in a claim against the third party. A claim to alimony based on the fact that the marriage has ended and the ex-wife is not able to support herself would logically fail because she did work during the marriage - so the law will expect her to go on with that - and the fact that she can't support herself is solely based on the birth of the child not on the pre-divorce arrangments. That said, if the gain on her side is not that much bigger than your boyfriends it might make sense to speed things up, rather than going through months of emotional hardship and lawyer fees quarreling, let's say about 20.000 Euro (40 k SGD).

Quote: My query is more along the line, if he pull the "hard ball" and refuse to give her any money (now that she is asking for money from him), does it gives her any (legal) right to not show up in Court during the final legal proceedings, and subsequently claim that she demand alimony from him?

There is a reason why the decision of the court to hear a case and demand the parties presence during trial is called "writ of SUMMONS" in common law proceedings. Now while failure to appear will lead to a default judgment in most commercial cases, I expect that French procedural law would demand the parties' presence during divorce proceedings. This is usually used as a safeguard against the danger of the emotionally stronger abusing party autonomy in their favour. The fact that your bf does not pay what is demanded may only lead to the division of assets becoming contentious thus triggering further hearings, not to a permission to disregard compulsory court orders.

But these are really detailled questions concerning French procedurial law, so you just have to ascertain them with a French lawyer. I can understand that your bf wants the whole procedure to be over as soon as possibe but honestly: Letting that manipulative bitch get away with "pay some more money to me, after having paid of the mortgages of my house or I will sue you for alimony since I can't work now being pregnant from another guy" kind of hurts my lawyer's heart.

Still, the one I am most sorry for is the child, he or she will have a hard time growing up with a mother who lacks the most elementary sense of integrity.

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Postby woman_chartered » Fri, 20 Nov 2009 8:20 am

Thanks Yali again.

I did mention to him that he shouldn't make decisions involving giving up his entire life savings but from what I sensed, money is secondary which I agree. He could have lost the same amount of money in properties or stock market.

Since he is still in strong earning capacity, he prefer to close this chapter as soon as possible and moved on.

As for the emotional toll, I believe the worse time was over i.e. when he just got the news and he is all alone in Singapore. He is an introvert and he has fewer than few friends.

For his ex, she is running a business (that was apparently not making money for the past 3 years, but she could still afford to buy a new house), so I am not entirely sure how much legal rights she possessed, in asking him for money. It wasn't a formal request but more of an email, going straight to "Business is not making money and I am giving birth soon. Can I borrow some money from you?" (something like that but written in french of course).

I suggested to respond that he made some big financial commitment himself (which she can't verify and she never asked about his financial situation for the past year) and don't have cash to spare.

I actually told him that since she is going to give birth in the next 2 months, I would think a mother's priority is on the child. If she is still trying to scheme more money from him, then I really feel bad for the child.

Now, we can only pray for the best.


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