considering australian citizenship

[Plavt]

I believe, as a commonwealth country there are able to acquire British citizenship as well. SE, correct me if my understanding of British/commonwealth laws not quite "there". I am, after all, only a Yank!

I haven't read this in great detail (not sure I want to) but it seems to depend where and when you were born;

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... rritories/

Section on eligibility;

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... igibility/

[Strong Eagle]

A huge number of Canadians have dual citizenship from birth because if one parent has British ancestry I believe, as a commonwealth country there are able to acquire British citizenship as well. SE, correct me if my understanding of British/commonwealth laws not quite "there". I am, after all, only a Yank!

This used to be the case until the 1980's when the UK hugely revised their immigration policy. My British citizenship derives from my 'right of descent', being the son of a man born in England... and my birth occurred before the change in the law and the independence of Canada.

AFAIK there are now no reciprocal agreements because Canada and the UK but I believe that Australians can become British citizens, or more correctly, are British citizens who need only document same with a passport or a stamp in their Australian passport, if at least one parent was a British citizen.

With the changes in British immigration law, the UK implemented multiple different types of citizenship depending upon the country and the nature of the descent claimed. It is quite complex and I forget all the differences but I looked in the front of my passport for the names.

They are: British citizen (the only one which has the automatic right of abode in the UK - my classification), British national, British dependent territories citizen, British national (overseas), British overseas citizens, British protected persons, and British subjects.

My British citizenship (and the other two for that matter) confer no special dispensations for me to obtain an Australian citizenship/passport... I've got to do it like everyone else.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... noverseas/

[jpatokal]

jpatokal: could you explain a bit more about the automated passport reader gates? I have just been back to Singapore in February and did not notice anything like that in the airport.

You must have been in quite a hurry... for many years now, all main immigration points (Changi, 2nd Link, Causeway) have rows of machines at one end of the hall. Insert registered Singapore/PR passport or Access Card, pass through first gate, press thumb against scanner, pass through second gate, you're in Singapore. More info: http://www.ica.gov.sg/page.aspx?pageid=196&secid=195

[taxico]

I would like to find out if anyone is in the same situation as me and is still holding onto two passports? Which passport do we use to travel in this case?

For instance, if I make a trip to Singapore, do I use the Singapore passport out of Australia and into Singapore? Because if I use the Australian passport out and Singapore passport in. Then technically, there is no stamp in my Singapore passport to show I left Australia on that day. What is the possibility of Singapore customs finding out?

Also, does anyone know what is the penalty for renewing the Singapore passport while being a citizen of a foreign country? Like what is the fine or actual jail time involved?

I really do not want to lose my Singapore citizenship

simple. this is what i do (i have US and SG passports)

during check-in at australia (to singapore), you show your singapore passport to get your ticket. you need to show proof you can enter singapore.

at australia passport control, you show your australian passport to leave. fill out the departure card with your australian passport details.

board the plane with your AU passport.

arriving into singapore, you use singapore passport to gain entry.

--

to leave singapore, use your AU passport at check-in to get boarding pass. (proof for entry to AU).

go through singapore passport control with singapore passport.

board the plane with your SG passport.

fill up arrival card with AU passport details. enter australia with your AU passport.

--

don't show more than 1 passport unless someone requests for it. you're giving them more things than they want to handle. if you do, you're just looking for trouble.

--

i renewed my singapore passport overseas last year. i know there is jail time involved. they give you a sheet of paper to sign to declare during application that you do not have foreign citizenship/passport...

--

i feel that as long as you apply for your exit permits and do not run afoul of NS obligations, no one's gonna come after you.

from my own experience with 2 passports: singapore immigration officers have never checked my passport for exit/entry stamps or foreign visas, even when there is no queue.

they flip to the front page, stick it into the machine, wait for the OK to flash, look at the passport to make sure it's you and that it's not been tampered with, and type a bunch of mumbo jumbo on their keyboard, then return it back.

--

check-in agents only care that you have permission to enter the country on your air-tickets, and won't bother you about missing stamps.

[Strong Eagle]

Taxico, it could not be said more succinctly or accurately.

[taxico]

jpatokal: could you explain a bit more about the automated passport reader gates? I have just been back to Singapore in February and did not notice anything like that in the airport.

I guess the main thing is I do still feel attachment to Singapore having spent 20 years of my life there. An australian passport will faciliate my intended travelling plans easier though. With respect to work-travel visas etc.

Does anybody know what entitlements do Singapore citizens have as opposed to a foreigner or SPR?

Also, I suppose if I renounce my citizenship and reapply for PR later down the track, they will probably refuse my application?

the automated passport readers look like MRT gantries, except they're dark pink in color and have laser beams in a little glass window to the right.

if holding 2 passports isn't giving you problems, there's no need to give up your singapore passport. you can't get it back once you give it up, and 20 years is a long time to build up kin and friendship.

don't bet on getting PR either.

i don't understand what's so wrong with the singapore passport though - it's as good as any. i think within asia, it's rated #2 after japan, with regards to visa waiver agreements.

have you tried visiting china without a singapore passport?

as singaporeans... um... rights... hmmm. i guess you can vote and stuff.

that sounded so typical. heh. you get to vote for both parliamentary and presidential elections.

your kids become singapore citizens by birth, instead of PRs.

well, you attend tertiary isntitutes for free or with major subsidies, and without having to serve that 3 year bond.

you get public housing subsidies: you can rent or buy any flat. PRs can only buy re-sale flats.

singaporeans get a grant of $40k on the open market, and another $10k if it's within their parents' district.

when you're upgrading your flat, you pay subsidized costs, while PRs pay the full cost for the upgrades.

mortgage rates... something about that which is subsidized... and citizens get to buy any type of landed property. PRs need to seek permission first.

i understand they're restricted from buying the first 5 levels... or something.

and citizens get all that tax rebates or singapore dollars and GST relief package and CPF top-ups and what not.

citizens' kids also qualify for those baby bonuses, and "productive" singaporean mothers can claim additional tax relief too.

in govt/govt-aided primary and secondary school, no fees. PRs pay full fees. i understand it's about as much as an indepdendent school would charge a singaporean student.

lastly, singaporeans get the right to complain a lot and whine like a baby whenever things don't go their way.

whoo hoo!

[sundaymorningstaple]

Yep! Spot on Taxico! Especially the last one....

[joilinaery]

taxico, i thank you.

[econoMIC]

I still don't know why Taxico changed his avatar. The puppy with the watch-collar was fantastic!

[john_nyc_71]

during check-in at australia (to singapore), you show your singapore passport to get your ticket. you need to show proof you can enter singapore.

at australia passport control, you show your australian passport to leave. fill out the departure card with your australian passport details.

board the plane with your AU passport.

arriving into singapore, you use singapore passport to gain entry.

--

to leave singapore, use your AU passport at check-in to get boarding pass. (proof for entry to AU).

go through singapore passport control with singapore passport.

board the plane with your SG passport.

fill up arrival card with AU passport details. enter australia with your AU passport.

--

don't show more than 1 passport unless someone requests for it. you're giving them more things than they want to handle. if you do, you're just looking for trouble.

--

i renewed my singapore passport overseas last year. i know there is jail time involved. they give you a sheet of paper to sign to declare during application that you do not have foreign citizenship/passport...

--

i feel that as long as you apply for your exit permits and do not run afoul of NS obligations, no one's gonna come after you.

from my own experience with 2 passports: singapore immigration officers have never checked my passport for exit/entry stamps or foreign visas, even when there is no queue.

they flip to the front page, stick it into the machine, wait for the OK to flash, look at the passport to make sure it's you and that it's not been tampered with, and type a bunch of mumbo jumbo on their keyboard, then return it back.

--

check-in agents only care that you have permission to enter the country on your air-tickets, and won't bother you about missing stamps.

Actually, when you board the plane, you should usually show the passport you want to use at your destination. (In your example it doesn't matter because SG and AU have visa-free access to each other's territories). When you board a flight to the US, they want to see that you have approval to enter the US (eg visa).

By the way, as far as I know, there is no law in Singapore against dual citizenship or holding the passport of another country. What the law says is that if you acquire another citizenship the SG govt can take away your SG citizenship, but even then the law does not say this happens automatically (there are countries that prohibit dual citizenship that make it very explicit - you lose your citizenship automatically if you acquire another one). As far as I can tell, this means that it is not illegal to hold both a SG and a foreign passport and use both, until the SG passport expires. (To contrast: I believe it is illegal to use an Indian passport once you acquire another citizenship; I think there is a note in the India passport that actually says so.)

There are some things for which SG citizens are required to declare that they have no acquired another citizenship (renewing passport, voting overseas, registering children born overseas). Other things (replacing NRIC) do not. I have heard rumours that some people have admitted to the ICA that they have a foreign citizenship and their passports were still renewed. But I have no idea if that is true or not and even if it is, it sounds like it is up to the discretion of ICA (which would be consistent with what the law says - the govt may but is not required to take away your SG citizenship).

Of course, you could always lie about your foreign citizenship. If you renew your passport in Singapore they probably will never know. (If you try to renew a SG passport in the US, they want proof of your immigration status in the US, so it is tricky if you are US citizen and therefore can't produce a green card). I don't know if people have been jailed for making such a false declarations. I've heard rumours of people being fined or being forced to renounce one citizenship if they are discovered, but I don't know anyone personally who has been in this situation.

[taxico]

Actually, when you board the plane, you should usually show the passport you want to use at your destination. (In your example it doesn't matter because SG and AU have visa-free access to each other's territories). When you board a flight to the US, they want to see that you have approval to enter the US (eg visa).

By the way, as far as I know, there is no law in Singapore against dual citizenship or holding the passport of another country. What the law says is that if you acquire another citizenship the SG govt can take away your SG citizenship, but even then the law does not say this happens automatically (there are countries that prohibit dual citizenship that make it very explicit - you lose your citizenship automatically if you acquire another one). As far as I can tell, this means that it is not illegal to hold both a SG and a foreign passport and use both, until the SG passport expires. (To contrast: I believe it is illegal to use an Indian passport once you acquire another citizenship; I think there is a note in the India passport that actually says so.)

There are some things for which SG citizens are required to declare that they have no acquired another citizenship (renewing passport, voting overseas, registering children born overseas). Other things (replacing NRIC) do not. I have heard rumours that some people have admitted to the ICA that they have a foreign citizenship and their passports were still renewed. But I have no idea if that is true or not and even if it is, it sounds like it is up to the discretion of ICA (which would be consistent with what the law says - the govt may but is not required to take away your SG citizenship).

Of course, you could always lie about your foreign citizenship. If you renew your passport in Singapore they probably will never know. (If you try to renew a SG passport in the US, they want proof of your immigration status in the US, so it is tricky if you are US citizen and therefore can't produce a green card). I don't know if people have been jailed for making such a false declarations. I've heard rumours of people being fined or being forced to renounce one citizenship if they are discovered, but I don't know anyone personally who has been in this situation.

sigh.

[econoMIC]

Actually, when you board the plane, you should usually show the passport you want to use at your destination. (In your example it doesn't matter because SG and AU have visa-free access to each other's territories). When you board a flight to the US, they want to see that you have approval to enter the US (eg visa).

By the way, as far as I know, there is no law in Singapore against dual citizenship or holding the passport of another country. What the law says is that if you acquire another citizenship the SG govt can take away your SG citizenship, but even then the law does not say this happens automatically (there are countries that prohibit dual citizenship that make it very explicit - you lose your citizenship automatically if you acquire another one). As far as I can tell, this means that it is not illegal to hold both a SG and a foreign passport and use both, until the SG passport expires. (To contrast: I believe it is illegal to use an Indian passport once you acquire another citizenship; I think there is a note in the India passport that actually says so.)

There are some things for which SG citizens are required to declare that they have no acquired another citizenship (renewing passport, voting overseas, registering children born overseas). Other things (replacing NRIC) do not. I have heard rumours that some people have admitted to the ICA that they have a foreign citizenship and their passports were still renewed. But I have no idea if that is true or not and even if it is, it sounds like it is up to the discretion of ICA (which would be consistent with what the law says - the govt may but is not required to take away your SG citizenship).

Of course, you could always lie about your foreign citizenship. If you renew your passport in Singapore they probably will never know. (If you try to renew a SG passport in the US, they want proof of your immigration status in the US, so it is tricky if you are US citizen and therefore can't produce a green card). I don't know if people have been jailed for making such a false declarations. I've heard rumours of people being fined or being forced to renounce one citizenship if they are discovered, but I don't know anyone personally who has been in this situation.

sigh.

Double sigh. This has been discussed quite a few times before here. Fact is lying on your passport renewal application is breaking the law.

@Taxico: happy to see the puppy back in action!