Singapore Expats Forum

considering australian citizenship

A moderated forum for serious discussions only.
User avatar
annihilator
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu, 21 May 2009
Location: Australia
Contact:

considering australian citizenship

Postby annihilator » Thu, 21 May 2009 10:41 pm

Hey guys,

Stumbled upon this website while searching for more information on dual citizenship. You have a great forum here. Keep up the good work!

I am a Singaporean considering taking up citizenship in Australia. I would like to find out if anyone is in the same situation as me and is still holding onto two passports? Which passport do we use to travel in this case?

For instance, if I make a trip to Singapore, do I use the Singapore passport out of Australia and into Singapore? Because if I use the Australian passport out and Singapore passport in. Then technically, there is no stamp in my Singapore passport to show I left Australia on that day. What is the possibility of Singapore customs finding out?

Also, does anyone know what is the penalty for renewing the Singapore passport while being a citizen of a foreign country? Like what is the fine or actual jail time involved?

I really do not want to lose my Singapore citizenship :roll: but the australian passport is much easier to travel with especially for work-holiday arrangements.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 21 May 2009 11:02 pm

You cannot legally hold two passports according to Singapore law.

User avatar
annihilator
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu, 21 May 2009
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby annihilator » Fri, 22 May 2009 9:21 am

Hi Strong Eagle,

Thanks for your reply. I know that it is not legal even before your post hence I asked in my post about the penalty involved.

If there are members who have done this before and/or currently holds dual citizenship in a foreign country and Singapore, please kindly share about your experience or feel free to private message me. Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you. :D

User avatar
jpatokal
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3014
Joined: Tue, 09 Dec 2003
Location: Terra Australis Incognita

Re: considering australian citizenship

Postby jpatokal » Fri, 22 May 2009 11:38 am

As SE said, Singapore does not allow dual citizenship. However, I legally hold two passports for the same country, and my answers below are based on that:

annihilator wrote:For instance, if I make a trip to Singapore, do I use the Singapore passport out of Australia and into Singapore? Because if I use the Australian passport out and Singapore passport in. Then technically, there is no stamp in my Singapore passport to show I left Australia on that day. What is the possibility of Singapore customs finding out?

For simply passing through, virtually zero, especially if you can use the automated passport reader gates, which only check that the passport is valid and nothing else. Pretty much the only way you could land in hot water is if Customs decides to give you a full bag inspection, finds your Oz passport and realizes what it means.

Also, does anyone know what is the penalty for renewing the Singapore passport while being a citizen of a foreign country? Like what is the fine or actual jail time involved?

The passport renewal application requires that you state that you are not a citizen of another country. I'm not sure which of the many offences in the Passports Act it would be to lie on your application, but the penalty for most of them is $10,000 fine and/or up to 10 years in jail. :o

http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/non_version/ ... =part&sl=1
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 35178
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 22 May 2009 1:36 pm

From the Act itself:

Making or giving false or misleading statements or information
39. —(1) If —

(a) a person makes a statement (whether orally, in writing or any other way) or gives information to another person;

(b) the statement or information —

(i) is false or misleading; or

(ii) omits any matter or thing without which the statement or information, as the case may be, is misleading;

(c) the person knows that the statement or information is as described in paragraph (b); and

(d) the statement is made or the information is given in, or in connection with —

(i) an application for a Singapore passport or a Singapore travel document (whether for that person or for another);

(ii) an application for an endorsement or extension of a Singapore passport or a Singapore travel document (whether for that person or for another); or

(iii) a report of the loss, theft or destruction of a Singapore passport or a Singapore travel document (whether or not belonging to that person),

the person shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $10,000 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 10 years or to both.


Pretty plain and understandable I think.

User avatar
sierra2469alpha
Editor
Editor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue, 27 Feb 2007
Location: Singapore (Finally!)

Postby sierra2469alpha » Fri, 22 May 2009 4:38 pm

Indeed jpa and SMS - we'll also take a VERY dim view of it back in Ozland

To the OP - what benefit/s are you hoping to achive from dual passports, or dual citizenship (these are two different matters)?

I started to write some additional info here however call me paranoid, but I'm not feeling that comfortable with discussing this in a public forum. 11SEP00 and all that.

[Edit: typo]
Last edited by sierra2469alpha on Fri, 22 May 2009 6:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 22 May 2009 5:03 pm

sierra2469alpha wrote:To the OP - what benefit/s are you hoping to achive from dual passports, or dual citizenship (these are two different matters)?


So how? How, that is, are these two different matters? I hold three legal passports and to hold each passport I must be a citizen of the country. And, holding the passport is prima facie evidence that I am a citizen of the country.

The US Supreme Court has in multiple decisions, addressed the ability to carry more that one passport in terms of citizenship issues.

US Dual Citizenship - http://www.richw.org/dualcit/

User avatar
sierra2469alpha
Editor
Editor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue, 27 Feb 2007
Location: Singapore (Finally!)

Postby sierra2469alpha » Fri, 22 May 2009 5:19 pm

SE, love your bites - what part of the ? mark did I put in my post that you missed? I hope you read project briefs a little more closely, with all due respect.

If you read the rest of my post you'd see I was concerned about providing too much information given the current circumstances within the world at large. But with three passports, and with all your way knowledge about multiple passports, you'd know that anyway. You must be so proud of yourself.

Re-read, repeat, rinse. Then post something sensible for a bloody change.

Mr. P

User avatar
Plavt
Director
Director
Posts: 4292
Joined: Wed, 18 May 2005
Location: United Kingdom

Postby Plavt » Fri, 22 May 2009 5:45 pm

Now hang on a minute, I think SE's response was a fair question, after all

I started to write some additional info here however call me paranoid, but I'm not feeling that comfortable with discussing this in a public forum. 09SEP01 and all that.


isn't telling us much is it? Besides just how is holding dual passports and citizenship different since a holding a passport makes you a citizen or am I missing something here?

User avatar
sierra2469alpha
Editor
Editor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue, 27 Feb 2007
Location: Singapore (Finally!)

Postby sierra2469alpha » Fri, 22 May 2009 6:06 pm

Plavt - quote properly - you know better than that, mate :)

And no, SE's response was not a question. It was a statement shrouded as a question, which makes a welcome change from opinion flourished as fact.

I pointed out something very simple. We do not know what the OP was asking, and to give too much info to people who may not know about dual (or triple) citizenship might not be prudent. Or do I have to baby spoon feed?

Therefore, the best option was to ask WHAT the OP was hoping to achieve.

I'm terribly sorry if I have offended, but how about next time the mods check in at an airport, how about telling them you have three passports, as I for one am sure as hell not going to let a public forum know that I have three passports (which I don't - I'm obviously not worthy).

Nothing too difficult to figure out here - apart from some form of higher self opinion from the usual suspects, yourself, Plavt, excluded.

Mr. P

User avatar
pakjohn
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 353
Joined: Mon, 29 Sep 2008
Location: Jamaica

Postby pakjohn » Fri, 22 May 2009 6:41 pm

To the OP - what benefit/s are you hoping to achive from dual passports, or dual citizenship (these are two different matters)?


I took this statement differently, might be because I was flying the week of September 11th and remember all too well the reality of how much damage these folks did by using our weak immigration policies against us.

Seems Sierra was asking a question, not making a statement. If the OP is trying to hold two passports, one illegally, doesn't he have two passports but only one citizenship? (Australian) Because by gaining the Aussie passport he is giving up his Singaporean citizenship. (Once caught, he'll also lose the Singaporean passport.)

Because the U.S. taxes their citizens regardless of where they reside; they don't care how many passports you hold. :)
Pakjohn

User avatar
sierra2469alpha
Editor
Editor
Posts: 1381
Joined: Tue, 27 Feb 2007
Location: Singapore (Finally!)

Postby sierra2469alpha » Fri, 22 May 2009 7:05 pm

Strong Eagle wrote: ... The US Supreme Court has in multiple decisions, addressed the ability to carry more that one passport in terms of citizenship issues...


It's a pity they didn't legislate about punctuation - there is no "comma" after decisions. But now I'm just being petty, like certain people here.

Point in fact, and again, I will spoon feed - do not give out information about multi citizenship and multiple passports. You're number one asking for trouble - just stop, think, rinse, repeat.

If you are from the US, SE surely you know this? Or are you passing off your usual editorial as fact? Three passports - and citizen of three countries. Wow. Like to see how you renew those. I'm serious! Oh, why do you need to be a citizen of three countries? Wouldn't mind seeing you get into Syria, Jordan, or Israel telling them that you have those. I'm fairly certain that even going into the US and declaring that then you may get stopped and asked some questions (although I am not sure of this).

Oh I won't ask because you'll just flame me and make yourself feel so much better and superior.

Just think about other countries security, SE. Not hard. Not difficult. Not a stretch of the imagination, even. Look, I used a comma in the correct place. Bless.

User avatar
Strong Eagle
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 11110
Joined: Sat, 10 Jul 2004
Location: Off The Red Dot
Contact:

Postby Strong Eagle » Fri, 22 May 2009 9:53 pm

sierra2469alpha wrote:
Strong Eagle wrote: ... The US Supreme Court has in multiple decisions, addressed the ability to carry more that one passport in terms of citizenship issues...


It's a pity they didn't legislate about punctuation - there is no "comma" after decisions. But now I'm just being petty, like certain people here.

Point in fact, and again, I will spoon feed - do not give out information about multi citizenship and multiple passports. You're number one asking for trouble - just stop, think, rinse, repeat.

If you are from the US, SE surely you know this? Or are you passing off your usual editorial as fact? Three passports - and citizen of three countries. Wow. Like to see how you renew those. I'm serious! Oh, why do you need to be a citizen of three countries? Wouldn't mind seeing you get into Syria, Jordan, or Israel telling them that you have those. I'm fairly certain that even going into the US and declaring that then you may get stopped and asked some questions (although I am not sure of this).

Oh I won't ask because you'll just flame me and make yourself feel so much better and superior.

Just think about other countries security, SE. Not hard. Not difficult. Not a stretch of the imagination, even. Look, I used a comma in the correct place. Bless.


Sorry, S2469A, now you are just blowing smoke out your arse. I renew each of these by dropping by the appropriate embassy in Singapore (Canadian, British, American), handing them my old passport and some photos, paying them some dollars, and presto... I get a new passport.

When I travel, I exit on one passport (my US passport from Singapore) and generally enter on the same passport (the exception being that if I travel to the EU on business I enter on my British passport to insure there are no issues with respect to working.

As to your question, "what benefit/s are you hoping to achive from dual passports, or dual citizenship (these are two different matters)?"

There are two ways to look at you sentence. I answered the first. I say to you that to hold a passport of a country you must hold citizenship... as I do for all three of my passports. Apparently this response irked you.

As to the benefits of holding dual passports/citizenship... that is somewhat more questionable. My Canadian passport insures that I can enter Canada... period... as do my other two passports... right of passage into my home country... and having more than one is a good option.

Second, in my case, holding a passport that permits me to work in Canada or the EU is a plus for my marketability.

So, I can understand why the OP might want Australian citizenship... but the fact is he cannot be a dual citizen under Singapore law.

Piss on the commas... and what about other countries' security?

So... I don't know why you are feeling inferior to accuse me of trying to be superior... but the fact is that I have ALWAYS held 2 citizenships without doing anything, and I purposely added the third (US).

And I add, one day later after my original post, (did I get the comma right?):

a) I am a Canadian by birth and unless I formally renounce my citizenship in front of a consular official I am Canadian, no matter what other citizenships/nationalities/passports I may acquire. Note that I am Canadian by law and definition in Canada... I don't need to do anything... the act of obtaining a passport merely documents the fact.

b) I am a British citizen by right of descent and unless I formally renounce my citizenship in front of a consular official I am British, no matter what other citizenships/nationalities/passports I may acquire. Note that I am a British Citizen by law and definition in the UK... I don't need to do anything... the act of obtaining a passport merely documents the fact.

c) I am an American citizen by naturalization and due to a number of Supreme Court rulings (did you read the FAQ that I posted?) I am an American citizen regardless of other citizenships/passports I may hold. The most recent Supreme Court ruling affirmed that naturalized citizens have the same rights regarding dual citizenship as do natural born citizens.
Last edited by Strong Eagle on Sun, 24 May 2009 8:06 am, edited 4 times in total.

User avatar
annihilator
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu, 21 May 2009
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby annihilator » Fri, 22 May 2009 10:58 pm

Thank you all for your posts and comments! It's really helpful information. but please... make love :in love: not war :shooting:

sierra2469alpha, I'd be happy to email you for more information if you drop me your email via pm if you do not feel comfortable posting on public forum.

jpatokal: could you explain a bit more about the automated passport reader gates? I have just been back to Singapore in February and did not notice anything like that in the airport.

I guess the main thing is I do still feel attachment to Singapore having spent 20 years of my life there. An australian passport will faciliate my intended travelling plans easier though. With respect to work-travel visas etc.

Does anybody know what entitlements do Singapore citizens have as opposed to a foreigner or SPR?

Also, I suppose if I renounce my citizenship and reapply for PR later down the track, they will probably refuse my application?
Last edited by annihilator on Fri, 22 May 2009 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 35178
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 22 May 2009 11:06 pm

One additional point as well. It is legal "in Singapore" to hold dual citizenship AND two Passports if you are a minor up to the age of 21. Maybe it would be a good idea to have a read of the voluminous data that's been compiled by myself and a number of other posters in the Strictly Speaking forum regarding minors/NS/Renunciation of citizenship. If the poster was born in Singapore and was granted Singapore citizenship due to being born here, then is does not matter WHAT country the child obtains his/her second Citizenship, they are breaking Singapore law once they reach the age of majority.

The US has always been fully aware of my children's dual passports and they have actually entered the US on both at different times without a problem (however, if they HAD a problem while in the US on their Singapore Passports, they would not be protected by US law as a citizen. By the same token, as they are citizens by birth in Singapore, Singapore law takes precedence and the US will not get involved even though, in my children's cases, they are citizens "By Birth" in both countries (not a naturalized citizen of the 2nd country, as is usually the case). A huge number of Canadians have dual citizenship from birth because if one parent has British ancestry I believe, as a commonwealth country there are able to acquire British citizenship as well. SE, correct me if my understanding of British/commonwealth laws not quite "there". I am, after all, only a Yank!


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Strictly Speaking”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests