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Sons of PRs - NS-liable?

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Sons of PRs - NS-liable?

Postby reisende » Wed, 20 May 2009 10:17 am

Hi,

Not sure if this is the right section of forum to post this, but have several questions re: PR.

1. If you or your spouse is a PR and your spouse or you is a Singapore citizen, do your kids (born in Singapore or otherwise) automatically become PRs? Or, are they Singapore citizens?

2. Is there a choice? E.g. - a child is born in Singapore, probably offered a Singapore citizenship as the dad or mum is a Singaporean, but rejects it for the other nationality of the other parent. Now, is PR granted automatically, and if so, can one reject the PR status for the child?

3. If the PR status is rejected for the child, what disadvantages (or advantages) would the child have in terms of local schooling, other benefits?

4. If the PR status is granted to the child, is the child then, at birth, liable to do NS when he turns 18? (Assuming a boy). Can the child take up the PR status, but say, at 12 years of age, 'discard' the PR status, stays on in Singapore as a foreign national (taking on citizenship of the foreign parent), and NOT do NS?


I've always been wondering about these for a long time and hope that expats here with similar situation could share. Personally, I feel that if a parent is a citizen, and the other a PR, the child shouldn't be 'forced' to have a PR and made to do NS. That's kind of asking a child to 'pay for' his father/mum's 'sins'. Very un-patriotic of me, yes..

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Postby cavalier » Wed, 20 May 2009 10:38 am

These topics have been discussed ad nauseum here. If you do a search, you will find a lot of information on the topic.

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Postby reisende » Wed, 20 May 2009 12:41 pm

cavalier wrote:These topics have been discussed ad nauseum here. If you do a search, you will find a lot of information on the topic.


you are right. great, I got the answers I need... didn't know the search function on this forum is so effective.
thanks.

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Re: Sons of PRs - NS-liable?

Postby renault » Sat, 23 May 2009 4:10 pm

reisende wrote:Hi,

Not sure if this is the right section of forum to post this, but have several questions re: PR.

1. If you or your spouse is a PR and your spouse or you is a Singapore citizen, do your kids (born in Singapore or otherwise) automatically become PRs? Or, are they Singapore citizens?

2. Is there a choice? E.g. - a child is born in Singapore, probably offered a Singapore citizenship as the dad or mum is a Singaporean, but rejects it for the other nationality of the other parent. Now, is PR granted automatically, and if so, can one reject the PR status for the child?

3. If the PR status is rejected for the child, what disadvantages (or advantages) would the child have in terms of local schooling, other benefits?

4. If the PR status is granted to the child, is the child then, at birth, liable to do NS when he turns 18? (Assuming a boy). Can the child take up the PR status, but say, at 12 years of age, 'discard' the PR status, stays on in Singapore as a foreign national (taking on citizenship of the foreign parent), and NOT do NS?


I've always been wondering about these for a long time and hope that expats here with similar situation could share. Personally, I feel that if a parent is a citizen, and the other a PR, the child shouldn't be 'forced' to have a PR and made to do NS. That's kind of asking a child to 'pay for' his father/mum's 'sins'. Very un-patriotic of me, yes..



Kinda shameful and sad to find some one like you. Guess Singapore should have screen you before letting u or ur spouse in here for work in the first place

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 23 May 2009 10:08 pm

How does Singapore screen a citizen? And most of the questions of NS are from Citizens trying to avoid it or get out of it after they didn't do their homework before immigrating to another country, not the PR's.

I can understand the PR's aversion to doing NS as I'm not really in favour of it either. However, the information I give here may sound that I am pro NS. My position here is to give the facts regarding the various issues. If asked, yes I am pro NS. I'll also tell people that I am ensuring that my son DOES do his NS as I think all males should do some form of National Service. (Course I come from a different generation and am a veteran as well so I look at life a little differently).

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Postby renault » Sat, 23 May 2009 10:41 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:How does Singapore screen a citizen? And most of the questions of NS are from Citizens trying to avoid it or get out of it after they didn't do their homework before immigrating to another country, not the PR's.

I can understand the PR's aversion to doing NS as I'm not really in favour of it either. However, the information I give here may sound that I am pro NS. My position here is to give the facts regarding the various issues. If asked, yes I am pro NS. I'll also tell people that I am ensuring that my son DOES do his NS as I think all males should do some form of National Service. (Course I come from a different generation and am a veteran as well so I look at life a little differently).


I think the question here is PR trying to avoid NS and yet asking to enjoy benefits of what the real singaporean eligible for. And not about citizen trying to escape liability. The fact is, if you want to enjoy the equal standing then it fair to share the burden.

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Postby littlegreenman » Mon, 25 May 2009 5:05 pm

renault wrote:I think the question here is PR trying to avoid NS and yet asking to enjoy benefits of what the real singaporean eligible for. And not about citizen trying to escape liability. The fact is, if you want to enjoy the equal standing then it fair to share the burden.


I agree very much with our friendly fisherman above, NS teaches discipline and builds bonds that last a lifetime I think there are a few points to consider though regarding what Renault said: PRs do not have an equal standing to citizens. PRs do not get the medical benefits, the progress package, the Singapore Shares, new HDBs and ESPECIALLY the right to vote in general elections. So while I agree with Renault, the fact is just that PRs do not have equal standing to citizens. This is a fact, otherwise they would not be called PRs but citizens.

Now one should keep in mind that there are other countries than Singapore where NS is compulsory, e.g. Germany. A German Citizen who also is a Singapore PR will have to do National Service for three years. While this male would have the right to vote and to benefits in one country he would not get the same rights in the other country although he performs the same service for this country. Spending three years of your life doing National Service for two countries is a long time.

In the end I do believe though that if you want your child to be a PR there come responsibilities with it. Those responsibilities have to be respected. You just can't change certain things in life.

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Postby taxico » Wed, 27 May 2009 12:51 am

littlegreenman wrote:So while I agree with Renault, the fact is just that PRs do not have equal standing to citizens. This is a fact, otherwise they would not be called PRs but citizens.

Now one should keep in mind that there are other countries than Singapore where NS is compulsory. Spending three years of your life doing National Service for two countries is a long time.


me thinks it's easy to become a citizen once NS has been done by a PR.

me also thinks other countries' citizenship might be easier to renounce.

me is referring to his taiwanese and thai friends who were formerly PRs but are now singaporeans.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 27 May 2009 7:03 am

I've said it before and guess I'll have to say it again.

To take up PR here has certain obligations. One of those are if you are a 2nd Gen PR you will be required to do NS. You don't have to have equal rights as a citizen in order to do PR.

I don't seen why people cannot get it through their thick skulls. It doesn't have to be "fair". Here's the deal...

You take up PR in Singapore, you do NS. Why? Because the government of Singapore says so. You are not forced to take up PR but IF YOU DO. One of the obligations of doing so, for which you voluntarily signed on the dotted line for, is the necessity to do NS. Simple really. It is not tied to having any sort of "equal" status with citizens. It is all about the requirements set by a sovereign nation for granting Permanent Residence to those foreigner who would like to stay here with some additional liberties not granted to Employment Pass holders. Nothing more. However, having done so, while it doesn't "guarantee" Citizenship, it usually helps pave the way for doing so.

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Postby Jeppo » Wed, 27 May 2009 11:39 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:You take up PR in Singapore, you do NS. Why? Because the government of Singapore says so. You are not forced to take up PR but IF YOU DO. One of the obligations of doing so, for which you voluntarily signed on the dotted line for,


But that's the problem, these 2nd gen PRs didn't take it up voluntarily, their parents forced it upon them when they were too young to make an informed decision. And as far as signed on the dotted line, wasn't it the parents who signed and not the child? How many 6 month olds do you know who can not only read and fully comprehend the PR documents, but also sign legal documents?

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Postby renault » Thu, 28 May 2009 12:30 am

Jeppo wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:You take up PR in Singapore, you do NS. Why? Because the government of Singapore says so. You are not forced to take up PR but IF YOU DO. One of the obligations of doing so, for which you voluntarily signed on the dotted line for,


But that's the problem, these 2nd gen PRs didn't take it up voluntarily, their parents forced it upon them when they were too young to make an informed decision. And as far as signed on the dotted line, wasn't it the parents who signed and not the child? How many 6 month olds do you know who can not only read and fully comprehend the PR documents, but also sign legal documents?


Hey, you do have a choice to remove ur PR status prior calling up for NS.
So act like a man and stop pushing the blame on to your parents. They might be here cos of better career opportunity and security. And thats the reason why u are being fed well and grown up here safely.

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Postby Jeppo » Thu, 28 May 2009 11:43 am

renault wrote:
Jeppo wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:You take up PR in Singapore, you do NS. Why? Because the government of Singapore says so. You are not forced to take up PR but IF YOU DO. One of the obligations of doing so, for which you voluntarily signed on the dotted line for,


But that's the problem, these 2nd gen PRs didn't take it up voluntarily, their parents forced it upon them when they were too young to make an informed decision. And as far as signed on the dotted line, wasn't it the parents who signed and not the child? How many 6 month olds do you know who can not only read and fully comprehend the PR documents, but also sign legal documents?


Hey, you do have a choice to remove ur PR status prior calling up for NS.
So act like a man and stop pushing the blame on to your parents. They might be here cos of better career opportunity and security. And thats the reason why u are being fed well and grown up here safely.


I guess you're just not that smart. I'm a 1st gen PR. My parents are not and have never been Singapore PRs. And as for removing the PR, you have to leave Singapore and notify before your 12th (Is that right?) birthday. Most 12 year olds I know aren't thinking about what they'll be doing in 6 years, let alone whether they want to remain PRs or go back to their home country, or whether they'll want/need that PR in 30 years. And even if they did know what they want to do, can they make their parents move back before the cut-off date? Or should they do that alone? Since they don't want to stay in Singapore.

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Postby renault » Thu, 28 May 2009 11:18 pm

Jeppo wrote:
renault wrote:
Jeppo wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:You take up PR in Singapore, you do NS. Why? Because the government of Singapore says so. You are not forced to take up PR but IF YOU DO. One of the obligations of doing so, for which you voluntarily signed on the dotted line for,


But that's the problem, these 2nd gen PRs didn't take it up voluntarily, their parents forced it upon them when they were too young to make an informed decision. And as far as signed on the dotted line, wasn't it the parents who signed and not the child? How many 6 month olds do you know who can not only read and fully comprehend the PR documents, but also sign legal documents?


Hey, you do have a choice to remove ur PR status prior calling up for NS.
So act like a man and stop pushing the blame on to your parents. They might be here cos of better career opportunity and security. And thats the reason why u are being fed well and grown up here safely.


I guess you're just not that smart. I'm a 1st gen PR. My parents are not and have never been Singapore PRs. And as for removing the PR, you have to leave Singapore and notify before your 12th (Is that right?) birthday. Most 12 year olds I know aren't thinking about what they'll be doing in 6 years, let alone whether they want to remain PRs or go back to their home country, or whether they'll want/need that PR in 30 years. And even if they did know what they want to do, can they make their parents move back before the cut-off date? Or should they do that alone? Since they don't want to stay in Singapore.


From what u have mentioned, u indeed have a choice isnt it?? If u really have doubt, then u shouldnt have apply PR for ur child in the first place. He or She can still study and stay here as dependant pass. And you can also consider employment pass if you are unsure either. So Y bother to complain and yet applying to become PR

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 29 May 2009 9:38 am

If you will but go read my various thread replies in the "Strictly Speaking" sub-forum of the General Forum, we/I have addressed this numerous times. The parents are to blame. Unfortunately, parents are a bit short sighted at times, thinking of only themselves without thinking far down the line when it is regarding their offspring. I place the blame squarely on the parents myopic shoulders in this regard. Funnily, Singapore, being a paternal society, is also somewhat myopic as well.

I am a PR. My children are in a somewhat different position but similar nonetheless. My son has dual citizenship. I did my research many years ago (19 to be exact) and the laws haven't changed and the information was there if one but looked for it. (I can't see anybody, expatriate especially, using ignorance as an excuse as these people are supposed to be smarter than most) I could have gotten my son out of NS easily by sending him to the US before his 11th birthday (in those days before biometric passports) and just sent a letter to mindef notifying them of his intentions to renounce his citizenship. It's easy really. One only has to do it timely however. Parents, often don't think how their decisions will impact their children in the future. In my case, because of my family ties here, I didn't want my son in a position where he could never return to Singapore in the future. Had he been a PR the same scenario would have applied. I have had discussions with my son every year since he started school regarding staying or going to the US to live with his grandmother until we return. As he got older each year he understood more of the details/obligations and import of his decisions. He's been here a long time. His mates are local and he's comfortable here. He also knows that it's a obligation and a matter of pride to not shirk his duty. This is something I tried to instill into both of my children from an early age.

I guess it's basically a matter of upbringing. I came from a different generation that still had respect for the military and respect the country that is giving us safe harbour. I'm also a war vet. My father was a WWII vet. I didn't come from the newer me-me-me generation that tends to only think of themselves and don't care if their actions impact other negatively or not.

So, while I can sympathize with those 2nd generation PR's, I have to agree it's the parents that are to blame.

Now, to think about it a little bit further. If you do your NS as a 2nd Gen PR. While it's not guaranteed, it pretty well assured that should you want citizenship you are a shoe-in (unless you've been a total screw-up like Nick Leeson or Michael Fay). Or, you will be allowed to keep your PR and have the best of both worlds. If you were to give up your PR (even if done so under the proper time frames (prior to your 13th birthday) and never enjoyed any of the socio-economic benefits (as cited by the government) I can assure you that in the future, should you want to return to Singapore in the future as a working adult, it would be almost be impossible to get even an Employment Pass as the government here has a long memory and you would be flagged for life. In this small world, that might not be such a good thing.

Additionally, the networks you create in 21 months on NS will stand you in good stead the rest of your life. And with Singapore being a global city of the first order, that local network is worth a lot of money. Or, run and leave Singapore as only a distant memory with no option of returning in the future no matter how attractive an offer of employment might be.

Your choice.

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Postby snowqueen » Thu, 11 Jun 2009 8:53 am

My husband and I are British citizens and my son was born here in February this year. We really like Singapore and to be honest, I can't bear the thought of returning to the UK. The place is falling apart, young people or people in general have no respect for the law or other people around them. It's a filthy hole riddled with crime.

My husband has been thinking allot about applying for PR, not for the benefits but mainly because he would like to stay here if anything happened to his job. We know that this will mean that our son will have to do NS but looking at the state of the UK, we think this is a good thing as it will teach him discipline and respect. It's other ex-pats reactions to this that sometimes make me think if we are doing the right thing but then they have had baby girls so it's not a consideration for them.

We realise that we are making a huge decision on on my son's behalf and he's in no position to give us his views on it but we think giving him the option to live and work in another country is a great opportunity, he will be so more worldly-wise and will have a diverse range of options available to him when he's older.

The only other thing sticking in my mind is that, is he going to be the only expat/white person doing NS as all the other expat children have gone back to their own countries or denounced their PR status?


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