5 year old banned from school

[Shona]

[color=red]"Two sides to the coin: There is the argument that parents are not taking the responsibility for looking after and nurturing their own kids. They just dump them into school assuming they will sort it all out.

When you say banned from school do you mean expelled? If so I never heard of a school helping out an expelled student, that's the parents job.

Do they have physiologist at toddlers schools these days?

When they say he was not given an explanation why he cant join his chums at school isn't that your job?"[/color]

So, whilst admittedly not having all the facts to hand, the initial approach was to assume that the parent takes no responsibility for nurturing the Kid. That they "dump" their kids, and expect the school to sort them out. That a school should have the right to expel on a whim. That the school bears no responsibility for communicating their decision and reason to the child in question.

Not constructive, laying blame, and making some very big assumptions.

For what its worth, this situation is one of 2 things:

Either, you don't believe the OP. You think that their child is a menace, and that they have been given ample warning and counselling as to the consequences.

or

The school is merely solving their problems by getting rid of kids who are a bit harder to deal with.

But even if the child in question is incredibly poorly behaved, that is no reason to call the parents motives or behaviour into question, as in "dumping" their kids.

[QRM]

So, whilst admittedly not having all the facts to hand, the initial approach was to assume that the parent takes no responsibility for nurturing the Kid. That they "dump" their kids, and expect the school to sort them out. That a school should have the right to expel on a whim. That the school bears no responsibility for communicating their decision and reason to the child in question.

Not constructive, laying blame, and making some very big assumptions.

For what its worth, this situation is one of 2 things:

Either, you don't believe the OP. You think that their child is a menace, and that they have been given ample warning and counselling as to the consequences.

or

The school is merely solving their problems by getting rid of kids who are a bit harder to deal with.

But even if the child in question is incredibly poorly behaved, that is no reason to call the parents motives or behaviour into question, as in "dumping" their kids.

If you don't agree that parents could be at fault, good for you that's your view. Though I suspect in number of cases of poorly behaved kids the parents have a big hand in it. The other day at Gymboree a kid was slapping his maid, the maid said he picked it up from his mother. I am not laying blame in the initial post, just pointing out there are two sides to a coin. Later on when the OP showed clear signs of aggressiveness, with name calling, threats of deletion etc. then I hinted, that it might be worth looking closer to home for the source of the problem.

What I did say is that we are not really getting a clear picture of the situation, which I believe later RichardIII in his some what cryptic reply confirms,

.... I have never said that I am the owner of the truth ... there's two sides to a coin, I will disclose all the details, I might even make a webpage, and I will be the first one to recognize I'm wrong should it be the case.

I think we have already established there could be number of reasons behind the situation, and like RichardIII said, the most important thing is getting help for his kid.

[richard III]

please....this is not a thread to initiate a debate on how parents influence their kids, or who is responsible for the kids behavior. As I stated in the beginning, the kid clearly developed behavior problems because of the change. His previous school reports are indeed very good, and it was a very strict school. So the problem lies in the extreme change, language and otherwise that caused this situation. I don't need anymore examples, we don't hit the maid nor the kid and my two other kids don't have any problems, on the contrary they are having a blast here in singapore, but their english if fluent. What is not acceptable is the attitude of the school. Inexistent counceling or strategies to deal with the problem. What if there is a personality conflict with the teacher? just an example not an assumption. Should we try another class, shouldn't we look for an additional opinion?

[QRM]

please....

See, you got him upset again.

RichardIII, all your suggestion of alternative teachers, other classes etc seem to be falling on deaf ears at the school. They have either tried already and know enough about kids to say it wont work, or they are just plain and simply not interested in a problem kid, which to be honest if the school does not cater for special educational needs, why should they put aside staff to help? then you are flogging a dead horse.

I don't know the history/details maybe the other two kids are already there and you want to keep them all together? Like a few other posters have said, if the school is not interested then walk away find a place that works.

This is your kid we are talking about, trying to move forward purely based on hearsay is a waste of time and effort.

Painful as it may be, especially when its your own kid, the first port of call is a chat with a child shrink. Does your firm have a list of specialist? If not, I noticed a couple of the regulars here have suggested a few contacts.

Make your decisions based on professional opinion and recommendations, don't rely on a school who is not interested, or a bunch of people on the internet, who don't know the whole story.

All the best

[Borough77]

Richard hi,
i really envy your patience against all unnecessary "help" you got here...Plenty of people are out there, too much bored and trying to get busy by irritating others who i strongly recommend you to ignore..

I just wanna say,we are facing similar difficulties with our son although he is only 2 and a half years old..He was born in Singapore and we always talked to him in our mother language since we havent planned to stay in Singapore so long..but now i extended my contract in SG and looking for a serious European school for the little one..He has been going on Julia Gabriel for a couple of months together with his mom...but also his agression is increasing as well probably because he can not express himself good enough to the other kids that are already speaking English well..

Besides the school change or whatever, first thing i would tell you is- be patient with your kid..I am sure he will be ok once he gets used to the new language..Just keep in mind your kid is just like dumb people that can't talk ..I dont know if you heard about it but dumb people are very agressive since they can not express themselves and gets angry like a hell at once..take it easy and give him time..dont care about the school that much..Your priority should be the kid..You shouldn't be damaging his character while you are preparing him for a completely new life in a foreign-land..

Acc to me there might be some reasons of such agression:
1)Teacher might be treating the kid in a wrong way..
2)One or more kids in the same class migh be provoking him ( your son might be a well-behaived kid in the daily life and getting aggresive only in the class)..
3)you might be treating him badly and his agression is a kind of reflection of yours(this is only a theory,i am sure you wouldnt be looking for a smooth solution if you were beating him..)
4)this agression might be in his genes and you can not 100% change till the end of his life...
i think you should first analyse taht as a parent from your side, then chase the school for an explanation&solution..


With regards to the school story: you should be kicking some asses if the real story is like you wrote in your first post..i am not telling you to sue or punch anybody but you should make enough noise to get what you are supposed to get..Perhaps this is Singapore but since they call themselves 'International Schools', they have to reply you in an international way..This is your and your kid's right to be treated in this way..No school in the world gives up about a kid so easily..What happens if each school treats the little one in the same way?? no no no, that should be so easy..

Cheers...

[mits]

Hi RichardIII,

Your situation is familiar to me as I almost had the same statement for my son some time ago. However, when the principal told me about this option if the situation will not improve, I did ask him - what will happen next when he will be banned from this school? We will go to the next school, and there will be the same, and again wll be the same.. What will happen then - he will be not able to go to school, if no one will take him? How about his life then? And principal started to consider that actually this is not solution - it would be easier for school but not for the child.
It was also the problem with behavior, but may be not in the way your son does - he just didn't want to go to school, he was crying in the morning and refused to promise that he will not cry next day again. THerefore he was making bad impact on other kids and destroying day for them.
Try to pay more attention to your son, especially now, when he has hard time, talk with him and play, that he can feel that you are on his side even he behaves not nice. I'm sure this is issue only because he is transfered to new place and if there are a few coincedences - new school, some may be provokating kids, different teachers and new environment - the problem is already in the place. Sometimes adults think that kids are very adaptive, capable to change their habits and language very fast, but for kids it's a lot of stress to start new life in unfamilar place, without knowing even language.
Talk with teachers and principals - like someone said - make that final meating to know what are the issues and how to solve them, because also in other school there might be the same and then what?
Also think about family life - my be there is some other things that are involved?
Good luck and don't give up!

[richard III]

Hi 77 and mits:
Thank you for your support, and advice. I have talked to a child psychologist already and working on the problem. Also talked to other schools. Up to the moment it looks that the problem lies on the way he has taken the change that for him might have been rather shocking, specially since he really loved his old school, that added to the language problem and an extrovert personality may create conflicts. But the way the school handled the problem is not acceptable, as of now I still do not have a serious report on him, my lessons out of this is that when you take a kid to a new school there's a few things you must request from the school.
1- Is there is specialized support in case the kid has adaptation problems or simply runs into trouble? Or at least if they have someone external providing advice. Remember that the answer provided by the school was that they didn't have that kind of service and they wouldn't know where to go for advice, that in the education business is not acceptable.
2-What are the procedures in case the kid becomes troublesome?, usually at least in my country his permanence in the school becomes conditional.
And he is left in observation. At least that way you have time to, either get help for the kid or look for other school so he is not left out of school in the middle of a term.
You will also not get reinbursed registration fees and you will incur in additional expenses getting him into another school.
3-Consider a school that interviews the kid over others, that way at least the school is making itself accountable for their share of the problem.

And Mits, I wish the principal in this school had been as professional and considerate as the one in yours, but that, one cannot determine before make the decision on a school.
I will keep you informed on how it turns out.

[weemo11]

Hi Richard, I was quite sad to read your post, I know how upsetting it is when your kids are in trouble. My own kids, who were well behaved and reasonably bright at home had their share of problems here. What would not even be noticed in a UK school was trouble here. Sadly my experience is that even in very respectable schools, any problems, even as minor as getting 3 out of 8 'c's' for effort resulted in my kid being asked to leave. He had moderate ADHD, undiagnosed at the time as he was not hyperactive. It was very distressing for him. He loved the school and his social life, but felt tremendously stressed by the teachers who were very scathing of him for being unfocused and forgetful. This is not a rare happening. The schools have been in such demand that I think they really do not tolerate any problems or differences at all.
I suggest you do not get into thinking your kid is as big of a problem as the school suggests, go with your own instincts whilst obviously checking any problems).I wish you luck .

[ribena]

Hello everyone.

I'm a mum with 2 boys. Eldest (6) has Asperger syndrome and the 3yr old has ASD and social communication disorder.

Will be uprooting the family from UK to Spore soon. Been following this post with worry!

My eldest with AS is coping well in mainstream school (no learning difficulties) but lack social sence..ie likes to play with friends but always get it wrong,.lack social emphaty, unaware of non verbal social cues etc..althought not well equiped with social navigators that is like second nature to us, he is still well like by his peers.

My dilemma is to find the right school for him. One that is truly a safe haven for kids to grow and learn, not super competitive but well rounded education that is not so overloaded with homework/tests. Most importantly a school with good pastoral care that really support the well being of each and every child. And SUPPORT is what lacking in Richard's situation!

Richard(and all the mums and dads following this post), I'll be mowing to Novena area in September. (I dont know Spore well) I've got a map and just looking at schools (local and internatuonal) close to that area. I am considering St joseph International Elementry School and Dover Court which has learning suppurt/special education department, and also even the local schools-Anglo Chinese Junior/Primary school and St Jospeh Primary School..I know you dont feel right to disclose the school you son is currently going..but please tell me it's not any of the school I mentioned.

Any one know if these are good choices?

Good luck to you Richard. Hope you'll keep us posted.

i

[weemo11]

Hi Robina, No personal experience, but I've heard St Josephs is very good. The Headmaster is excellent (He was headmaster at a previous school) and I think is likely to foster an atmosphere where the kids are looked after. ISS is also good with pastoral care I've heard. I looked at this school and although the school is a bit scruffy, I was impressed that they were more interested in the kids potential than worrying about their exam results. More of a mix of western and asian students.
Good luck

[weemo11]

Robina, sorry for some reason, I was unable to give you a reply to your message as I have not enough posts?? The answer to your question is that they didn't want him to stay, not interested at all sadly.

[ksl]

Thanks for the advice, to QRM all I can say is that it looks that you work for the school...I would not have bothered to post THIS If we were the kind of parents you say. I posted asking for advice, not to be criticized. To the useful advice I can say that I have looked into this possibilities, obviously I have considered possibilities, one is that the change is frustrating, other is the language problem, that makes kids irritable if they can communicate their feelings, and there were some violent settlement of conflicts in the beginning, having said that, the school with their experience with expat kids must be aware of that, that's why they interview them and request proper reports from the previous school. And should advice you in order to deal with the kids frustration. My position is how little help or alternatives they give. In my country the school where my trhee kids have gone have psychologists on staff or at least orientators either for special needs kids as well as for teenagers that have to decide what are they going to do with their lives. For the kind of money you pay I am really surprised that this is not provided for. If I look at the issue from another perspective, when you entrust your kid to an educator, you are making a financial as well as a moral contract, in which you contract the education of your kid, and that does not include academics only, thats the service you are paying for, If you give a service whatever this is, you have to deliver, or does the mrt offload a person because is too fat and takes too much space? or do airlines cancel their service because weather got bad? If the requirement from the school is that they want robots in order to make their job easier, then they should warn you before hand, not after you handover the check.
Anyway I rather not publish the school's name because I still give them the benefit of the doubt, and wait for a more reasonable solution than the one they given me so far. And please do not forget that we are talking about a 5 year old, not a teenager. How terrible a 5 year old can be that adults trained for this cannot cope with? I just want to seek for options legal and otherwise.

Being a parent myself I can say a 5 year old can be a little shit, and very difficult to handle, and Im a man that has raised 3 children, I have a son and a daughter in their mid 30's however, second marriage and a new daughter of 8, is a new challenge, I have won, the mother has lost simple has that.

The problem with kids is mainly manipulation, and not food allergies, they come later down the line, all though i am not a specialist, i would belive i have more experience or just as much to make a discussion out of it. At 5 years old no child wants to leave their parents to go to kindergarten, the child is probably traumatised, but you wouldn't think of that would you? What is trauma to you? and how can a 5 year old have feelings? Is what you are basically saying. Tell me about it, I'm a man and only i have the ability to communicate with my 8 year old daughter not my wife. Dont ask me why, but manipulation starts from day 1 birth mothers have a tendency to give in all the time and a routine is never implemented.

We are talking about a very sensitive issue a 5 year old child, that needs their parents and will use every alternative to get attention, if you do not help the child when the child needs the help most, you produce a self reliant child that will dominate and take charge by itself! And what follows is something else and a bigger problem. Your child needs love and reassurance it takes a lot of time, eventually the child may make friends and enjoy the experience of school, but it take a lot of parent participation to encourage the child to settle down. I would advise one of the parents staying with the child for an hour until the child feels safe with others. But that's just me! The most important thing is to listen to the child, and not your agenda! That's only money! Kids at that age are attached to either mum or dad, their favourite, and not all teachers want the problem, because it can be traumatic for the child, if preference is not given to the child, and that is not possible. Their is definatly a psychological problem going one, and the best way is for one parent to stay with the child until the child is comfortable in school. The only need is reassurance by a parent and not a stranger.

[Vaucluse]

RichardIII, any news or update on your unfortunate situation?

This is one of the things that makes being an expat that bit more difficult . . . being in an unfamiliar situation and not knowing how to handle it.

I am surprised that your children can't speak English given your obvious excellent grasp of the language.

I believe the subject has been mentioned, but have you had your 5-year old checked by a doctor, not a psychologist, for potential hormonal imbalances or anything else that may account for his behaviour?


(Oh, and calling QRM and others 'bitter housewives isn't really helpful)

[angellikes]

I think there is to much worry about the school instead for the boy. Bottom line is that everyone goes through some culture shock. Some take the move to another country easier some struggle more. This boy is just 5 years old, he is old enough to understand that his environment has completely changed and he can't do very much about it, which can be very frustrating for a young child. Children at that age are still learning to express there emotions, sometimes they still struggle to understand the feeling they are feeling inside. One more big thing is that he moved into a country where people speak 2 different languages which he can't master yet. English he speaks some and understands some and than there is mandarin which is completely different. Would you not be upset or frustrated, feeling like you don't fit? That is how a child feels. I don't think he has a learning disability. I think he probably has a hard time coping with his new environment. He needs a lot of encouragement, he needs to learn how to express his emotions prober, he needs to know that the boundaries are still the same ( even the environment is different). He needs a lot of attention. A child at this age does not know how to cope with a new environment when he does not have the words for it or tools to cope with it. Maybe to see a children counselor wouldn't hurt. He needs someone to help him to understand his emotions and to express himself.
I wish you the best!

[richard III]

Hi everyone:
First of all I would like to apologize for having left this thread with some questions unanswered, thing is that I was quite busy since there is a new member in the family, and frankly handling 4 kids and working can get the best of you. I just wanted to rejoin the thread to exppress my sincere appreciation to those who expressed concern as well as those that tried to provide some support and advice. To close the circle I wanted to tell you that I got my now 6 years old, in mid semester in another school of the same carachteristics, where he is about to complete his first year, with NO incidents whatsoever. Of course I have been called once or twice, for some minor misdeed, but then, I even appreciate that. No special assistance or ritalin, or no change of parents upbringing pratices as someone suggested. He is quite happy and his english is better than mine (accentwise at least). Since we kept a special eye on him for the first months we enquired about his behavior constantly with no observations whatsoever. During this time I have been studing the International School system in Singapore thouroughly, even corresponding with the ministry of education of the country where the curriculas are followed from, all they will say is that they do not regulate. My point is, beware of the school you choose, study it thouroughly, do not even consider the financial side. In the end all International Schools are expensive, and whats most important, none are regulated and the Singapore MOE does not participate in conflicts. There are new regulations for international schools in Singapore effective December 2009, some schools are abiding by them, others are studing them and others are trying to bypass them, doing some finacial wheelings and dealings in order no to reinburse deposits, the school in question is one of them. There are excellent international schools and then some, the problem is, if you do not choose wisely. That was my mistake and I assume it, but my son did not need to through this ordeal where even his psychological status was put in doubt, fortunately he Is too young to notice. I do not want to start a debate again with those who tried to shoot me down last year, I just offering my humble advice to those who need it as I needed it last year, and maybe spare them a bad moment. Again my deepest thanks to those who where concerned about my childs weelbeing.

P.S.
Sorry about the comment about the bitter housewifes......but then again, they questioned my fitness as a father and my sons sanity!!!