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Regarding Renunciation of Singapore Citizenship

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Knightman_38
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Regarding Renunciation of Singapore Citizenship

Postby Knightman_38 » Thu, 26 Mar 2009 9:10 pm

Can anyone shed more light on this please?

My family and I migrated to the US when I 16 years old. This was 28 years ago. Since being in the US, I have served in the US military, have completed 3 degrees, ( 1 undergraduate and 2 post bach), and am a naturalised US citizen. I recently completed my renunciation paperwork to renounce my Singapore citizenship so I could come back to visit. I received a letter from the Singapore government stating that my renunciation paperwork is on hold as I have to contact CMPB, stating that I am a defaulter and have to resolve my NS offence as soon as possible. What exactly does this mean? They will not give me a straight answer. Please give me some insight.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:12 pm

It means that the Singapore Government considers you a Deserter. If you didn't leave Singapore until you were 16 you cannot escape Singapore laws saying you HAVE to do NS. The only way around it is through the draconian methods outlined at some lengths by us here numerous times in this forum. As it stands right now you have broken two laws in Singapore. First, you are an NS Deserter which is punishable by fine and imprisonment and secondly, you are illegally holding dual citizenship after the age of 21 which is also in violation of Singapore law. Dual Citizenship is only allowable by minor children where one parent is NOT a Singapore citizen. They must renounce within 12 months of their 21 birthday (the age of majority here).

You have a hard problem if you want to return to Singapore even as a tourist if they find out (legally you cannot enter Singapore as a tourist either as long as you hold Singapore citizenship). You, my friend, are between a rock and a hard place.

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Thanks

Postby Knightman_38 » Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:17 pm

Well I guess I can go to Malaysia and to the surrounding areas and avoid Singapore at all costs. It was a thought of going back but being away some 28 years makes me miss Singapore much less, seeing how arcaic the governments' policies and procedures prove and how much of authoritative rule they have on mere citizens.

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Re: Thanks

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:41 pm

Knightman_38 wrote:Well I guess I can go to Malaysia and to the surrounding areas and avoid Singapore at all costs. It was a thought of going back but being away some 28 years makes me miss Singapore much less, seeing how arcaic the governments' policies and procedures prove and how much of authoritative rule they have on mere citizens.


I guess this is especially so when parents take their kids and immigrate without first finding out the ramifications of doing so without following proper procedures. It's actually very easy as long as the parents use a little common sense......... Therein lies the problem. That elusive trait in Singapore "Common Sense". Now the child, as an adult has to face the problem that the parents gave him. :(

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Re: Thanks

Postby igwt » Wed, 01 Apr 2009 9:42 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:..... It's actually very easy as long as the parents use a little common sense.........


Hi,

Can you tell me how easy it is in this case? Is there any provision under SG law for a 16 years old to migrate and renounce SG citizenship, of course without NS?

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Re: Thanks

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 02 Apr 2009 11:08 am

igwt wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:..... It's actually very easy as long as the parents use a little common sense.........


Hi,

Can you tell me how easy it is in this case? Is there any provision under SG law for a 16 years old to migrate and renounce SG citizenship, of course without NS?


And that, folks, just goes to reinforce my statement above. Had you read the threads contained in this forum, you would not have to ask that question would you. It's actually very easy as long as the parents use a little common sense like immigrating earlier before the child has enjoyed the socio-economic benefits of a NRIC/Passport/Secondary Schooling. After that, the kid needs to do NS as he cannot renounce before doing so. See. Easy. You plan ahead or he does NS. Common Sense.

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Re: Thanks

Postby jpatokal » Thu, 02 Apr 2009 1:24 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:And that, folks, just goes to reinforce my statement above. Had you read the threads contained in this forum, you would not have to ask that question would you. It's actually very easy as long as the parents use a little common sense


With all due respect, there's very little that's "very easy" or "common sense" about the process. As you've noted yourself, the Garmin goes out of its way not to publicize this info, and SingaporeExpats wasn't around when the OP's parents were living in the country 28 years ago...

In any sane country, you'd be able to lose a citizenship if you left the country while underage and don't return for 28 years... but Singapore isn't sane when it comes to military service.
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 02 Apr 2009 2:13 pm

You are aware then that every male of the US has to register with the selective service system then aren't you? Even if the kid has never lived or even born in the US. If he is a male he is required to register. So I don't see too much difference except for the fact that here they are required to do 2 years of service (before 1975 you were drafted in the US military for 2 years as well). If you went to Canada or other country to escape military callup, you were considered a deserter as well. Of course we weren't in a Scandinavian country so it might be different there. Oh, there are no waving flags or anything of that nature to inform an overseas citizen that they have to register either. But they do. So Singapore isn't exactly alone. I believe Israel is also similar as well.

The various websites and discussions about this problem have been going on for a number of years even before I joined this board five years ago and it was on the Ministry of Home Affairs website then as well as when I first started answering these questions here (it was removed later when they revamped the site). So, for this poster, the information was there and available at the time.

As far as Knightman_38 is concerned, yes I was partially ut of line, my apologies. Having been gone that many years, I doubt seriously if his parents could have found out anything on his NS obligation (not exactly true though). However, his other problem is dual citizenship which, like a lot of countries, is illegal once past the age of majority. This is a different situation as well. That information has been around and they would have been notified of it has they bothered to ask. I know I would have before doing something major like taking up another country's citizenship. Had they asked, they would have also found out about his NS liability. :-k

But a lot of people tend to figure what they don't know can't hurt them. Rude awakening I'm afraid.

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Postby Knightman_38 » Fri, 03 Apr 2009 2:37 am

The thing is I became a citizen after serving in the United States Air Force. The US government offered me early citizenship to this great country and I accepted. I am not naive to not look into the laws of Singapore but why should I when I already passed the age of 21 prior obtaining my US citizenship. My parents may have overlooked this step some 28 years ago but then again information wasn't that easily available back then as well. I have no desire to be a Singapore citizen and plan on living in the greatest country in the world, The United States of America. Since the Singapore government claims I have committed offences in respect of their laws, I have decided to avoid that country and continuing my exisence in the US. All I wanted to do was to renounce my Singapore citizenship and go back for a visit. But I see how complacent of a country and how ignorant the government is in change.
Last edited by Knightman_38 on Fri, 03 Apr 2009 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:50 am

I can understand your frustration, but Singapore law has always been (since it became a republic) that you could not hold dual citizenship AFTER reaching the age of Majority. Minority dual citizenship is only allowed when one parent is not a Singaporean. You deliberately took up US Citizenship BEFORE notifying and requesting permission from Singapore of your intentions. As you are a Singaporean by Birthright and a US Citizen only by Naturalization, your liability to Singapore has to come first. Even with your US citizenship, should you enter Singapore and they were to pick you up, the US government could/would do absolutely nothing to help you as they also understand the Singapore government's position and respect the laws of a sovereign nation. You are a citizen of Singapore first. In their eyes and in fact you deliberately broke their laws by taking up US citizenship.

Parochial? Maybe, but some other countries are even worse. Indonesia is one.

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Postby Knightman_38 » Fri, 03 Apr 2009 8:32 pm

Hence this has made my decision not to ever come back to Singapore and instead live here in the U.S.

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To knightman

Postby Simon-2009 » Mon, 06 Apr 2009 11:52 am

I understand your frustration, but why do you insult Singapore, the country where you were born? I do not agree that US is the greatest country, just because I love Singapore and I think that it is the greatest country. Just because I like the place where I am and where my son was born.
This discussion started with your legitimate question then became a strange gathering of insulting posts.
Let me tell you my opnion on that. As you know there are not so many countries in the world where double citizenship is legal. Singapore is just consistent in this respect. This country has the greatest history of success relative to other poor neighboring countries. Nobody shots policeman or kill kids here. I think (presumably) it is the good place isn't it?
I am ready to discuss with you merits of Singapore since I do not see big problems here. Maybe I am not right, but it is my opinion. I came from the country where some people initiated blood bath using "democratic" ideology.
I do not say bad words about USA. I think it is a great country and we should be happy that it exists. But you have to understand the realities of our life. I is not easy to do, but as you said, go to Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and learn life there.
I am sure in future you will understand why Singapore should be strict and why Singapore is a success story. It is pity that you cannot come to the land where you was born. Then you will see what is the paradise.
I can walk here in any place and in any time. My wife can do that. My kids can do that. You will see how singaporeans smile when see others children (Asian children!). Children in Singapore. It is a special story. They are very intelligent, they are surrounded by LOVE. It is pity that you lived in other country. But I am sure you will come here one day. You are welcome!
:D

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Postby jpatokal » Mon, 06 Apr 2009 1:47 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:You are aware then that every male of the US has to register with the selective service system then aren't you?

That's why I said sane countries, not all other countries :P

And oh, my own native country's policies were, until recently, equally obtuse with dual citizenship basically totally banned. (Getting out of NS was fairly easy though, as your liability ended the day you gave up your citizenship or turned 40.) Then one day they went around and did a 180 degree turn, with dual citizenship now permitted with almost no restrictions and even a super-easy procedure for people to reclaim citizenships that they'd had to give up under the old system. Which just goes to show you how totally arbitrary and pointless these things are... :???:
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Re: To knightman

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Mon, 06 Apr 2009 1:48 pm

Simon-2009, I'm not too sure where you are coming from as it would seem you have a few wires crossed. Just because you happen to think Singapore is the greatest country in the world, doesn't, in fact make it so. It does have a lot of good things going for it, I'll grant you that. However, each man is entitled to his own opinion, as it is just that, only one man's opinion. Singaporeans are immigrating to other countries at faster and faster rates each year. Why do you suppose that is? I'm not saying anything here, just asking you a point blank open-ended question.

Simon-2009 wrote:I understand your frustration, but why do you insult Singapore, the country where you were born? I do not agree that US is the greatest country, just because I love Singapore and I think that it is the greatest country. Just because I like the place where I am and where my son was born.
This discussion started with your legitimate question then became a strange gathering of insulting posts.

Where are all the insulting posts? I haven't seen any here that insult any country at all. You might take off your blinkers and reread the thread.

Let me tell you my opnion on that. As you know there are not so many countries in the world where double citizenship is legal. Singapore is just consistent in this respect. This country has the greatest history of success relative to other poor neighboring countries. Nobody shots policeman or kill kids here. I think (presumably) it is the good place isn't it?

There may not be many but a lot of those that are are primarily developed countries as opposed to developing countries (Singapore is still not classified as a 'developed' country). The US, UK, Canada, Australia, France, Israel all either permit or tolerate dual or multiple citizenship. I know a lot of people who are born in Canada, went to the US and acquired citizenship there and also are British citizens as well due to Parental lineage and the fact that Canada is a commonwealth country.

As far as the rest of your paragraph, well, let's just say "low crime doesn't mean no crime" although Singapore does have a bad reputation for letting terrorists escape.



I am ready to discuss with you merits of Singapore since I do not see big problems here. Maybe I am not right, but it is my opinion. I came from the country where some people initiated blood bath using "democratic" ideology.
I do not say bad words about USA. I think it is a great country and we should be happy that it exists. But you have to understand the realities of our life. I is not easy to do, but as you said, go to Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand and learn life there.

So you are obviously in a better position that you were before you took up Citizenship here. You are obviously a naturalized citizen as well. Do you think that your fervor for Singapore, your adopted country, is any greater than his fervor for his adopted country?

I am sure in future you will understand why Singapore should be strict and why Singapore is a success story. It is pity that you cannot come to the land where you was born. Then you will see what is the paradise. That my friend, is a misnomer if there every was one.
I can walk here in any place and in any time. My wife can do that. My kids can do that. You will see how singaporeans smile when see others children (Asian children!). Children in Singapore. It is a special story. The amount of love for children is duly noted by the country's fertility rates which 3rd lowest in the entire world. You need to do some homework. The average age of having children is up around 35+ for the first child (and in most cases, only child).
They are very intelligent, they are surrounded by LOVE. They are more surrounded by demand. Demand that they have the highest scores, so as to give the parents bragging rights. It is pity that you lived in other country. But I am sure you will come here one day. You are welcome!

You obviously bought the whole government sales pitch, hook, line & sinker. Hopefully you'll not live to rue the day. Have you been discriminated against yet when trying to buy an HDB flat? Or do you have the "racial" superiority so you can live almost anywhere you'd like here? If you don't mind, I'll just share your smilie rather than using another one.....
:D

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singapore

Postby Simon-2009 » Mon, 06 Apr 2009 3:01 pm

Dear sun... if you read well: I have said: I think that Spore is the greatest country because I love it. Surely it is a subjective opinion. Love is a very subective feeling :twisted: . Clearly there is no abslute best country.
But Spore is a really good country. I lived in Europe, US, Asia and I can compare.
It might be true that more and more "native" singaporeans immigrate. It is not easy to cope with challenging educational system here for example, I know sch people. Some do not like NS. Some just...
But common. Do you REALLY think what you write? I think you do.
This is a small, well-organized country where govt, at least sincerely, tries to help people. Are they successful? Not always. But I see how they work and I support them. I do not like many things here but it is marginal. Can we do better? I am sure we can. And we wl.

About insults: that country - I take this as an insult.
I lived in France and I regret to tell you for example: people there say Marseille c'est fini. This is what you want for Singapore? Of course not, but it will be like that if we will do what you want to do. Believe me.
If we will follow such people like you sun... we will see riots, blood and many other things. Believe me, I saw it. You didn't.
As for homework: Please do not insult me. I hope I did all homeworks in my life.
I agree with MM that oppositon in this country will destroy it in 5 years. That what they did in USSR. And that was a much bigger country.
Mr. Simon (PhD math).


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