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'Respect For Others'....A Forgotten Phrase, Seemingly...

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 25 Mar 2009 8:56 pm

k1w1 and Addadude,

I don't feel good about my quarrel with RNT here, and I've said so to Dave in an earlier post. It's hard to explain if you haven't witnessed the last 5 years of personal disagreements that we've had, both here and on another forum, both publicly and privately. I left that forum to keep the peace, hoping that she'd let me have my fun here, but I guess it's a free world and she has every right to post here. I've largely ignored her posts even when she directly addressed me, and my mistake this time was to take the bait.

There is no rational explanation. Her arrogant put-downs of locals and the local way of life over the years just gets under my skin, so much that she just has to mention the world Singapore or Singaporean and all my hackles are up. When she implied that locals losing their jobs was nothing serious, I just thought of all the people I know who were retrenched, struggling, and miserable, and I guess I saw red that anyone could say something so callous.

k1w1, some of my closest friends are Americans and I think very highly of that society. I was just trying to show the folly of comparing two very different economies, and I'm sure that in my anger it came across very badly.

Addadude, thank you for trying to be kind. I agree that this is not the person I used to be, nor want to be.

I am sorry for my unpleasantness. It's very clear to me that I have to give this forum some berth. They say that if you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. After years of trying I have to admit that I can't take the heat here. Anyway I'm not an expat, never belonged here, and will leave you expats in peace to say anything you want about us.

Me... I'm off to seek nirvana away from the vexations of this online world! :D

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The posting is taking a different direction than expected...

Postby Dave Magoo » Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:51 pm

but am 'happy' if that's the right word to see that the posting has given people a chance to share their stories on what's happening out there on a grander scale. As previously stated, am right in amongst it myself as my office has had to close down and I've lost everything that is linked with it (salary, apartment etc), and it was only a 'as the clock strikes midnight' solution from my old employers + a particularly kind offer of accommodation from one of our Ex-Pat Forum community that has enabled me to stretch my stay in Sing. that little bit longer. The nails are rapidly breaking, but am hanging on to the cliffside for all I'm worth....

I'd still have to say though that it is not particularly fair to anyone to start making any one situation (i.e. expat retrenchments) sound any worse than another (i.e. our Singaporean cousins' retrenchment)...yes, of course in many ways its even scarier to lose your job and everything that goes with it when in a foreign land with no 'net' and no family support network to help bail you out (and yes, I have been there, and am currently there too), but it is a risk we all take when deciding to go down the ex-pat road.

A lot has been mentioned about the number of ex-pat friends in such a situation, but let me balance that by letting you know of 4 different stories of Singaporean friends/colleagues of mine who have also been badly hit. The first is a recently married chap who has just had a baby daughter. Him and his wife have both been retrenched separately and are scrabbling for at least one of them to find another job to sustain them. A second friend is getting married in May with all the costs that involves, and has just lost his job without notice being given. A third friend lost her job with my company back in December, but even though this was the case, her husband, who was the agent who helped me secure my apartment when first arriving, took over a $1500 dollar hit on repaying the Landlady some money back when having to break the 2 year lease, even though he had seen his wife fired only a month previously. The fourth is a divorced mother of a 4 year old boy, who again is having to cope with the reality of being jobless and without immediate prospects.

So yes, I can sympathise in every way with all of the various stories of ex-pat retrenchments and all that entails, but lets also remember that we are all guests in a land of very decent people who are all experiencing exactly the same level of suffering as we are.

We are all in this together, so lets all try to look out for each other on this forum and try to move towards showing more respect for each other in general. There's enough shit going on in the real world right now to not need to replicate it here.

With regards to all the personal stuff going on on this thread, I'm not gonna get involved (although it is actually a thread that is trying to fight against exactly such things occurring!!) other than to say that, WIMH, if you feel that you need a break from getting involved, then I respect that, but don't be long in coming back, ok? This forum needs the Singaporean perspective more than ever to counter-balance some of the less enlightened ex-pat posters that are around. And in that, I don't mean anyone on this particular thread as I feel that most points made thus far have been valid, even if they contrast in so many respects.

When it comes to the reasons behind the 'lack of respect' being shown generally on the Forum these days, there is no right or wrong answer to be fair, just a number of parts that, when put together like on this thread, can make up the whole.

Respect to all :-)

Magoo
One day, lad, all this will be yours....what, the curtains?

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Postby k1w1 » Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:06 am

Wind In My Hair wrote:k1w1 and Addadude,

I don't feel good about my quarrel with RNT here, and I've said so to Dave in an earlier post. It's hard to explain if you haven't witnessed the last 5 years of personal disagreements that we've had, both here and on another forum, both publicly and privately. I left that forum to keep the peace, hoping that she'd let me have my fun here, but I guess it's a free world and she has every right to post here. I've largely ignored her posts even when she directly addressed me, and my mistake this time was to take the bait.

There is no rational explanation. Her arrogant put-downs of locals and the local way of life over the years just gets under my skin, so much that she just has to mention the world Singapore or Singaporean and all my hackles are up. When she implied that locals losing their jobs was nothing serious, I just thought of all the people I know who were retrenched, struggling, and miserable, and I guess I saw red that anyone could say something so callous.


Ok, again, probably taking this too far, but the comment was that expats whole life is "profoundly affected" by a layoff, not that locals being laid off was nothing serious.

The differences road-not-taken then pointed out were that the conditions for locals are not the same - local children do not get told they are not allowed at school if their parent/s are laid off (my daughter has a friend who has not been able to return to school because his father has been laid off, and the entire family are now "non-residents" and are nothing more than tourists. My daughter is five and these kids have known each other since they were three and starting at school together). Local families do not get moved at a company's whim to another place if someone is down-sizing. Locals do not become tourists - unable to do anything at all - when someone decides to get rid of a few company staff members. Locals have family here. They have options - at the end of the day, if things get really bad, expats would not be allowed to go and flip burgers and wait out the storm...

It wasn't arrogant, WIMH, it was a very factual recount of the differences of being an expat here and being a local. Despite making this place a home, I do not feel safe. There is no net and EVERYTHING is affected PROFOUNDLY... Can't you see the difference?

I have witnessed the feuding between you and road-not-taken across the forums/years and I have largely stayed out of it. This time, however, I think you were out of line. Please try and remember that every criticism of Singapore (or remark that things are different) is not a personal attack on you, your family and friends or even your fellow citizens. We have all made wonderful local friends, and we are not criticising them either.

Having lived abroad yourself, you must realise that little things about a foreign country can really get to you. Most of us go through the whole day not being able to make these observations/comments and we let rip online. I'm not saying it's right, but the truth is that most of us like it here, and find solace online with other foreigners having a difficult time getting on with things too. I can see how this would irritate the life out of you, but I hope you understand it is largely just cathartic venting.

And at the end of the day, there are some of us here who are just homesick as hell. Nothing is what we want because we just want to be home, and for whatever reasons, we can't be. Again, not Singapore's fault, but it probably does come out looking like that.

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Postby road.not.taken » Sat, 28 Mar 2009 10:16 pm

=D>

Well done k1w1. Homesick? If homesickness were strawberries, we'd all be drinking smoothies.

Yes, I was wondering about that myself. How what I said:

But I do think in the collective unconscious, people are fearful of change and uncertainty --and it plays out in a variety of ways. Perhaps it is more of an expat condition since the children's schooling, your home, income, social network, etc.. are all immediately effected so profoundly by a job loss.


I am steadfast in believing my experiences may be different than that of a Singaporean in some respects.


Could be interpreted as:

When she implied that locals losing their jobs was nothing serious


And then I remembered a voice of reason, a source of wisdom calling out from the wilderness, a source I go to when the answers aren't clear. I remembered Gary Larson:

Image


I just don't think it matters at all what I write, some people are just going to hear what they want to hear or what they expect you to say. :roll:

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:41 pm

And that last part wasn't baiting was it? Did you deliberately call her a female dog or was that just collateral damage? Didn't seem like a measured or even necessary response. Your assessment of me I? I expect that from you. I just consider the source. But this seems to sink to a new low especially considering you're flogging a dead horse as she quit this board several days ago. :-|

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Postby DimWit Kid » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 1:10 am

Reminds me of the tones in a certain other board :P

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Postby road.not.taken » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:20 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:And that last part wasn't baiting was it? Did you deliberately call her a female dog or was that just collateral damage? Didn't seem like a measured or even necessary response. Your assessment of me I? I expect that from you. I just consider the source. But this seems to sink to a new low especially considering you're flogging a dead horse as she quit this board several days ago. :-|


Baiting? Good God - No! Anyone who knows anything about me knows that I hold dogs somewhere just above Mother Theresa... Stop inferring so much.

SMS, like it or not, I have every right to rebut unfair and unkind comments attributed to me, especially when they are untrue. I never implied, inferred or insinuated that 'locals losing their jobs is nothing serious'. I wanted to set the record straight. Maybe the timing is off, but I have been away and not near internet access.

You send out mixed signals, you know? Are you telling me my assessment of you wasn't a little accurate? And illustrated my point? You really think the forum is made up of Demons and Angels? Rude and polite? You can make fun of your rudeness and maturity, but others can't.... OK I get it now. I'm sorry if I offended you, and I know WIMH is special to you, and if this 'source' is somehow not up to your standards, by all means -- stop reading.

I didn't write that post for WIMH anyway, I wrote it for myself. And in fact this is 'the last part' I wrote':

road.not.taken wrote: I just don't think it matters at all what I write, some people are just going to hear what they want to hear or what they expect you to say. :roll:


Seems I was right about that part anyway :wink:

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Postby k1w1 » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 9:45 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:And that last part wasn't baiting was it? Did you deliberately call her a female dog or was that just collateral damage? Didn't seem like a measured or even necessary response. Your assessment of me I? I expect that from you. I just consider the source. But this seems to sink to a new low especially considering you're flogging a dead horse as she quit this board several days ago. :-|


I hope she doesn't quit the board - I didn't get that from this thread though - because of this.

Of all the people on this board that could have a sore point with each other, at least BOTH road-not-taken and wind-in-my-hair agree that what is said online should not differ from what is said in person. They both offer a very genuine view of how they think and feel about topics. I, quite frankly, appreciate that (and find it really hard to take when people have "online personas").

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Postby ozchick » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:30 am

Vaucluse wrote:
ozchick wrote:Magoo, I appreciated reading your post. I'm not posting much at the moment cos a certain person sometimes gets on a thread and seeks attention in a very aggressive way for no reason at all. I find it sad that some people use this forum for their punching bag. They should deal with their personal issues. It spoils what could be an actual 'discussion'.....sigh....
I'm surprised that you haven't been attacked in this thread by the poster in question. Maybe he's having a good day?! :-|


Oh dear, the Australian Female with clarse stalking me again . . . go away . . . shooo . . . stay away from me. Back to Mt. Druitt with you

Let's see. You post drivel about calling the cops because you were cut off in traffic as this is what would happen in Awe-strucken-failure, aka Australia.

You have a good dig at me in a previous thread.

Now you do the same without provocation yet again.

And you say I have issues? At least you are well balanced with a chip on both shoulders.

Why would I attack Magoo? He's posted a very rational comment and the ensuing discussion has been quite fertile . . . until you came along with your personal attack. Again.

Please yourself, but don't punch and hide, punch and hide and then complain when when you get one back.


:D LOL Well this is just hilarious! Nobody's name mentioned in my post above, merely the observation that some people use this forum as a punching bag. And so I get a personal attack for this?! :???:
If I didn't know better, I'd swear that V is feeling guilty..mm............
And why should he have to feel this way when he encapsulates all that is sweetness and light?! There, there poor baby V.............
'Are you trying to tempt me because I come from the land of plenty?'

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 1:29 pm

k1w1 wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:And that last part wasn't baiting was it? Did you deliberately call her a female dog or was that just collateral damage? Didn't seem like a measured or even necessary response. Your assessment of me I? I expect that from you. I just consider the source. But this seems to sink to a new low especially considering you're flogging a dead horse as she quit this board several days ago. :-|


I hope she doesn't quit the board - I didn't get that from this thread though - because of this.

Of all the people on this board that could have a sore point with each other, at least BOTH road-not-taken and wind-in-my-hair agree that what is said online should not differ from what is said in person. They both offer a very genuine view of how they think and feel about topics. I, quite frankly, appreciate that (and find it really hard to take when people have "online personas").


She quite this board Wednesday night with an official request to have her account deleted. In part, I tried to dissuade her but I also can understand her point, and not just because she is a friend (I've only just met after her being a member of this board in good standing for 5 years). As she is one of the few locals on here that can hold an intelligent conversation (along with banana) is gets a bit difficult when the board descends into a mob mentality to gang up on her. Frankly, I read much the same in RNT's posts but she cleverly crafts her sentences to always give herself a back door if necessary (admittedly a good practice - I'm not dissing that at all).

Maybe WIMH, like me when I read it, did phrase something wrong in her rebuttal or let her nationalistic pride come through, who hasn't here. My comment in my first post about staying out of it but following the thread was specifically because of rnt's post as I also read it wrongly. Sometimes rnt is too clever by half. But when it descends into what appears to be a them or us mob I don't blame her for leaving. I don't like the fact that she was driven away by this mob mentality as she has always been here for the right reasons. Some here have shown me a new side of themselves and it's not pretty at all. She is not some newbie troll like the one two weeks ago.

Hopefully time will heal and she'll return. But I 'spect it won't be for a while.

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This is so sad....

Postby Dave Magoo » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 2:19 pm

Thanks for the update, SMS. And sad to hear it, indeed.

I never envisioned when I posted a thread titled "respect for others" that it would lead to this end result. Putting aside the fact that WIMH is a good friend of mine, I was hoping that the thread would lead to a bit more good grace and humour being injected into all of the discussion boards and just a general awareness that this Forum is not a medium for 'points scoring' and personal vendettas, but rather a place in which we can discuss interesting subjects in a respectful and informed manner.

I certainly wasnt posting to encourage the resurfacing of a number of personal conflicts that appear on other threads. If you flick through this thread, though, I think you'll see that that is indeed the case. In fact, it has become a perfect microcosm of all that I was arguing against to begin with.

I think that WIMH, road.not.taken, and others would probably reflect that, in hindsight, they did take things too far in the name of 'healthy debate' (indeed, WIMH admitted as much in her last posting), but maybe, just maybe, WIMH's withdrawl may be the wake up call that is needed to demonstrate more respect here from now on. I live in hope!!

And as I said previously, WIMH, if you're reading, your presence is still very much needed here for sure. Come back soon.
One day, lad, all this will be yours....what, the curtains?

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Postby Vaucluse » Sun, 29 Mar 2009 7:59 pm

Ozchick wrote:
:D LOL Well this is just hilarious! Nobody's name mentioned in my post above, merely the observation that some people use this forum as a punching bag. And so I get a personal attack for this?! :???:
If I didn't know better, I'd swear that V is feeling guilty..mm............
And why should he have to feel this way when he encapsulates all that is sweetness and light?! There, there poor baby V.............


How very disingenuous of you . . . the 'who? me? Oh, woe is me.' Response. I thought you were a bit of a toughie . . .

As for feeling guilty? For what?

Anyway, sarcasm suits you just fine. As Oscar Wilde said; Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit . . . and you're a champion at it.
......................................................

'nuff said Image

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Postby tinpot_dummy » Mon, 30 Mar 2009 1:32 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote: She quite this board Wednesday night with an official request to have her account deleted.

What a shame. :cry:

Not that it would matter what a smelly, dark native like me would wish but just as I was beginning to enjoy this BBS, one of its most intelligent member put in her papers under less than satisfactory condition.

I do hope this is a brief sabbatical and she is back soon.

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Postby road.not.taken » Mon, 30 Mar 2009 9:06 am

sundaymorningstaple wrote:She quite this board Wednesday night with an official request to have her account deleted. In part, I tried to dissuade her but I also can understand her point, and not just because she is a friend (I've only just met after her being a member of this board in good standing for 5 years). As she is one of the few locals on here that can hold an intelligent conversation (along with banana) is gets a bit difficult when the board descends into a mob mentality to gang up on her. Frankly, I read much the same in RNT's posts but she cleverly crafts her sentences to always give herself a back door if necessary (admittedly a good practice - I'm not dissing that at all).

Maybe WIMH, like me when I read it, did phrase something wrong in her rebuttal or let her nationalistic pride come through, who hasn't here. My comment in my first post about staying out of it but following the thread was specifically because of rnt's post as I also read it wrongly. Sometimes rnt is too clever by half. But when it descends into what appears to be a them or us mob I don't blame her for leaving. I don't like the fact that she was driven away by this mob mentality as she has always been here for the right reasons. Some here have shown me a new side of themselves and it's not pretty at all. She is not some newbie troll like the one two weeks ago.

Hopefully time will heal and she'll return. But I 'spect it won't be for a while.

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SMS, I appreciate that you tried to explain & that you fleshed out the situation a bit more, but I guess for me it's a clear case of 'The Emperor's Not Wearing Any Clothes.'

There was no mob.

There was no mob mentality.

A few people disagreed with WIMH and said so. All were respectful, none in my opinion, were personal at all (obviously my post that seemed to get her so riled up was taken personally and I shouldn't have phrased it the way I did, considering who I was replying to, but it still wasn't meant to be personal to her as it was describing the expat condition). The disagreement was about something intangible, that can never be proven and is highly subjective. This is where forums get into trouble over and over again.

It's obvious she carries a lot of creditability here and is well liked and respected, qualities which are hard-earned and admirable. But she's not used to being disagreed with, having cultivated a playful, genial, intelligent on-line persona that is in most cases non-confrontational and passive.

That's all well and good, but I never took ballet and I don't know how to tiptoe en pointe. It's an Expat forum, used often to exchange important information, used other times to vent frustrations.

There is no harm in disagreeing. WIMH doesn't think my theory is valid (BOLLOCKS! I think was how she put it). I disagreed. So what?

Where are the Emperor's Clothes? Where is this mob you write of? The them vs. us?

If her good standing here is so fragile and tenuous that a disagreement this petty and inconsequential could give her cause to quit -- well then, she really does need a break. No harm in that, I've taken my share too. However, she was not driven away, she is in the driver's seat. No other.


As far as:

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Frankly, I read much the same in RNT's posts but she cleverly crafts her sentences to always give herself a back door if necessary (admittedly a good practice - I'm not dissing that at all).

Sometimes rnt is too clever by half.

Some here have shown me a new side of themselves and it's not pretty at all.


Well... Honestly? Just not sue what this all means.

I don't know what you read into my posts, good or bad,
I don't know what the back door is,
I don't know how my my posts annoy you by seeming too clever,
I don't know how what anybody wrote in this thread revealed a side that wasn't 'pretty'



Wait, I take that back. Since I'm laying it all on the table I'd like to go on record:

Vaucluse,

You may not agree with Ozchick. I ask you to remember yourself. You are a gentleman, and I know you understand right and wrong. Thuggery does not suit you. I do believe that as a woman and being, I believe, senior to you, she deserves a level of respect that is noticeably lacking in your recent posts. I was astonished frankly to see you mock her so thoroughly and to drag the great nation of Australia into your diatribe. (and for those of you with a hair trigger who are sputtering: but you made fun of Singapore in your post! No I didn't: I made those points because with one news channel, compared to the 30 or so in the US, the saturation of the media message may be different and that it is a richer nation with a quicker recovery time-line, that's all. )

I didn't read the entire argument between the two of you in the original thread that caused all the bad blood, but I have indeed pounded on the windows of a few cars that have almost killed me and my kids and would do it again tomorrow.


Go ahead, have a go at me, you know I'm up to it. :)


Wind In My Hair,

Come back, stay away, only you know what is best for you. If you come back, I ask that you please not take every single thing I say to be a slam against Singapore. Don't your poor hackles get tired?

I let a lot of your comments about expats go, not all, but plenty. There is room for both of us here. Maybe not for our big egos though... :wink:

P.S. Dave Magoo ~ I hope you don't feel bad about what happened to your thread. Obviously your insight was quite valid. Maybe we disagree about how or why, but I like these sunny threads, that start off cloudy and end up shining light on new areas. It's healthy and necessary.

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Postby ksl » Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:57 am

We all have our own unique traits, i say accept it, take a cooling off period, because we are not going to change at all. It was totally out of character for WIMH, but it probably made her feel good to let off steam!

It doesn't really matter if it is an expat forum or not, because people will remain the same, no matter where they are. It's our own personal identities, we are, who we are, some hard on the outside and soft in the middle, some soft both in and out, and some hard in and out!

We tolerate until we tolerate no more, the safety valve blows, the steam comes out, and a cooling period is the norm..we still retain our characters.

Make love not war! :P
Last edited by ksl on Mon, 30 Mar 2009 7:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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