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Dual citizenship (Indonesia | Australia) - Leave/enter SG

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igj20002000
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Dual citizenship (Indonesia | Australia) - Leave/enter SG

Postby igj20002000 » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:38 am

Hi guys,

I hope someone can help me with my situation here.

I came to Singapore using my Indonesian passport and got my Singapore permanent residency based on my Indonesian passport. However I just got my Australian citizenship and bit reluctant to renounce my Indonesian citizen at the moment.

I am bit confuse about if I want to go to the country where it has no visa requirement for Australian but not for Indonesian while my Singapore permanent resident is linked to Indonesian passport. What should I do before travelling out from Singapore?

If I bought a ticket based on my Australian passport, is it ok for Singapore check-point immigration to have both passport checked before boarding? Or how is the system in Singapore works?

Thanks in advance.

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Postby sierra2469alpha » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 4:52 pm

Hmmm, without going into the various reasons why you were applying for PR here and AUS citizenship...

You won't be able to get both passports stamped with exits - I assume you'll depart SIN for AUS? If that's not the case then you need to work out which country you wish to "belong" to, as you can hardly ever leave one country on one passport and re-enter on another (I have dual citizenship). AUS are VERY particular about this.

I can tell you that if you didn't tell the AUS authorities that you also have SIN PR on your Indo application they are likely to take issue with it.

Perhaps if you could clarify your details and plans we can help a bit more.

P

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Postby igj20002000 » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 6:05 pm

Thanks Sierra,

I would like to take the case where I am going to other country like Japan who requires Indonesian passport to obtain a visa; but not require a visa with Australian passport.

I think Australian is quite ok with dual citizenship, it wasn't like that before 2002 (if I am not wrong). But you're right, Australia is requires for their citizen to use their Australian passport (at least) when entering / departing from Australia.

The problem is might come when I just about to buy a ticket from Singapore to Japan (like say), it would be better if I can stamp both of my passports and using Australian passport on the air-ticket. So on the destination country (like say Japan in this case), I will use my Australian passport without any hassle applying for a visa.

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Postby sierra2469alpha » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 6:21 pm

hmm, no, actually that's not right - I can leave AUS on my other passport, anytime I want, but I need to re-enter on the SAME passport.

So, for JAP, use your passport for your PR (I assume Indo), then ENTER JAP on your AUS passport, but be prepared for LOTS and LOTS of questions. Upon re-entering SIN, use your Indo one (that you have PR for).

I think as PR you just show your NRIC anyway - but others here have more knowledge than me.

HTH, Capt. P

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 6:23 pm

sierra2469alpha wrote:You won't be able to get both passports stamped with exits - I assume you'll depart SIN for AUS?


My question to ICA received a different answer. I hold US (which is my PR passport of record in Singapore), British, and Canadian citizenship.

ICA told me that I can have the re-entry permit stamped in additional passports for S$150, the same re-entry number, the same expiry date.

Just note that in leaving/entering Singapore, you must use the passport registered with ICA. But, there is nothing to stop you from using another passport elsewhere... that is the whole point of having the re-entry permit stamped in other passports... to show that you have the right to re-enter Singapore.

Generally, if you are a citizen of a country you must always use that passport to enter the country.

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Postby sierra2469alpha » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 7:11 pm

Strong Eagle wrote: ...Generally, if you are a citizen of a country you must always use that passport to enter the country.


And that was my point, SE. I said RE-enter. RTFT! You'll find the same regardless of which country from which you exit on whichever passport you hold - when RE-entering you must use the SAME passport.

I won't bother with the issues surrounding those of us who travel with the APEC card, or tech-crew cards (oh those were the days!).

I know of only a few reasons to use different passports to enter/exit THE SAME [See EDIT] countries. Most of them illegal. Try it on is AUS and I will guarantee you a very hefty delay at Immigration with an extremely good chance of being turned back. Do the same in the Eurozone and they'll probably do the same, but with colder and more efficient consequences.

@IG - you will need to present your passport not only to get your ticket (landside part), but also through Immigration, and usually at the gate to confirm your Identity. If you start swapping ID you WILL get noticed, with the resulting consequences.

Capt. P
[EDIT: Trying to make it even clearer]
Last edited by sierra2469alpha on Thu, 05 Feb 2009 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 7:38 pm

My desire for entering England/France/Germany on other than my US passport is my right to abode and right to work; hence the the need for a second re-entry stamp. I can do contract work in the EU (most of it) with no bloody work permit hassles... nothing illegal about that.

PS: I can see no reason to enter/leave on different passports in a given country... but lots of reasons to leave a country on one passport and enter a second country with a different passport... the whole point of dual+ citizenship.

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Postby sierra2469alpha » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 8:04 pm

Strong Eagle wrote:My desire for entering England/France/Germany on other than my US passport is my right to abode and right to work; hence the the need for a second re-entry stamp. I can do contract work in the EU (most of it) with no bloody work permit hassles... nothing illegal about that.

PS: I can see no reason to enter/leave on different passports in a given country... but lots of reasons to leave a country on one passport and enter a second country with a different passport... the whole point of dual+ citizenship.


Let's not confuse the OP's post. I also have EU and I agree with your point, so I have edited my comment to make it clearer. No point to your PS as you are just re-iterating what I said.

Capt. P

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Postby igj20002000 » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 8:39 pm

Thanks Sierra & Eagle.

I think I might try to ask ICA to stamp re-entry permit to my Australian passport and see what happen. It would be easier for me if they're ok with that.

I guess Sierra was right again, Australia's immigration is ok if we handed them foreign passport when we about to leave / enter Australia; however they'd encourage Australian to use Australian passport to enter/leave Australia. The most problem happened is the delay for them to check into their system.

Thanks a lot for both of your inputs. Please let me know if you have more up to date information about this one here.

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Re: Dual citizenship (Indonesia | Australia) - Leave/enter S

Postby Strong Eagle » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 8:42 pm

igj20002000 wrote:Hi guys,

I hope someone can help me with my situation here.

I came to Singapore using my Indonesian passport and got my Singapore permanent residency based on my Indonesian passport. However I just got my Australian citizenship and bit reluctant to renounce my Indonesian citizen at the moment.

I am bit confuse about if I want to go to the country where it has no visa requirement for Australian but not for Indonesian while my Singapore permanent resident is linked to Indonesian passport. What should I do before travelling out from Singapore?

If I bought a ticket based on my Australian passport, is it ok for Singapore check-point immigration to have both passport checked before boarding? Or how is the system in Singapore works?

Thanks in advance.


First of all, Indonesia does not recognize dual citizenship, so you are already in violation of the law. No doubt the Singapore authorities are aware of this, and thus, may not be willing to add any kind of re-entry permit to your Oz passport.

You say that you are 'reluctant' to give up your Indonesian citizenship. Beyond the fact that you may have de facto already given up your citizenship, what are your objections?

You could formally renounce Indonesian citizenship (or not) and go down to ICA and have your passport of record changed to Australia. Why not do at least this?

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Postby igj20002000 » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 9:02 pm

Hi Eagle,

Yeah that's why I am afraid that Singapore would refuse to do that for that reason.

I am a bit reluctant to renounce my Indonesian citizenship just because I still have family over there and would be troublesome if I want to stay longer when I am visiting them.

So I guess the fact that I've automatically given up my Indonesia citizenship once I have become Australian is right. It would be simple just to reounce Indonesian and move the PR to Australian passport rather to make everything complicated. :)

...or just ask ICA to move it to Australian passport would works too. :)

Thanks Eagle.

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Postby sierra2469alpha » Thu, 05 Feb 2009 9:10 pm

My point exactly, SE, although I did not want to question the OP about the reasons for so many passports hence my first comment in my first post.

@IG - no, I'm sorry I may not have been clear. I have two passports...and from day 1 I left AUS on my AUS passport (I could have as easily left on my EU passport). Let's say on day 7 I return to AUS, I will (and pretty much every country I know of) requires me to RE-enter on my AUS passport. If I try to RE-enter on my EU passport there will be questions (albeit only a few as I am a citizen of AUS).

Now, let's say I leave AUS on my EU passport and go to, say, Indonesia, on my EU passport. I enter Indo on my EU. As SE says, that's perfectly fine. When I exit, I need to exit on my EU passport. When I RE-enter AUS I need to use the same passport I exited AUS from - in this case, my EU passport.

As SE says you may well be violating the law here (and possibly also in Indo). I can also assure you that if the AUS authorities become aware of anything that is remotely suspect, your citizenship will be suspended and you can expect to be refused entry to AUS, with many potential ramifications.

I would suggest you contact the Australian High Commission here and ask them their view of the situation. I'd also suggest you contact ICA, and also the Indonesian Embassy, and seek their advice, then make your own assessment of your individual circumstances.

I'm sure you'll do the right thing, won't you :) Good luck with it all!

P

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Postby Jeppo » Fri, 06 Feb 2009 9:31 am

With regards to your Indonesian citizenship, you will lose it automatically after 5 years if you don't renounce it. The embassy will recommend that you at least notify them of your Australian citizenship, even if you choose not to renounce at this time. Don't assume that they don't already know about your Australian citizenship either, I believe there is an arrangement for the Australian government to notify the Indonesian government when one of their citizens takes up the others citizenship. Not sure what will happen if you don't notify them and try to enter Indonesia on your Indonesian passport though.

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Postby carteki » Fri, 06 Feb 2009 2:43 pm

Leaving aside the legality of the 2nd citizenship etc, the practical side of the matter is that if you leave SG, you should use the passport that has your permit stamped in it. Only the airline will check that you have valid documentation to travel to that country - which is when you give them your Aus passport - but they don't check that your permit to stay in SG is in that passport. You give your Indo passport to be checked out of SG and then you use which ever passport you want to when you arrive at your destination.

I've traveled to numerous countries from SG using this method (my permit to stay is in my more "restrictive" passport) and never had any problems.

But make sure that you sort out the issues relating to your 2nd citizenship as you might find yourself landless...

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Postby waz » Sat, 21 Feb 2009 8:30 am

very complicated..... that's why I got one passport.
I work to live and not live to work.


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