Corporal Punishment
LOL haven't heard the word WOG for years brings back fond memories of Roberstons GollyWog jam. Yeah just ignore it if you take the bait it will just escalate.
The other day while chatting with some local parents, they were very surprised I have never "disciplined' my toddler as in never hit or threaten to beat her, I could not do it even if she set fire to the house. but they, regularly whip out the cane.
When I pointed out that its actually illegal to do that in the West, they come back saying that's probably explains why UK has the highest teenage pregnancy problems, truancy, and roaming gangs of 12 years old that have no fear of authorities. Westerners should sort out their own back yard before trying to tend to other peoples.
So its a touchy subject.
The other day while chatting with some local parents, they were very surprised I have never "disciplined' my toddler as in never hit or threaten to beat her, I could not do it even if she set fire to the house. but they, regularly whip out the cane.
When I pointed out that its actually illegal to do that in the West, they come back saying that's probably explains why UK has the highest teenage pregnancy problems, truancy, and roaming gangs of 12 years old that have no fear of authorities. Westerners should sort out their own back yard before trying to tend to other peoples.
So its a touchy subject.
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sierra2469alpha
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Ms C. and I are not parents (although you are welcome to our god-daughter who is 16 going on 26!!).
That being said, I'm kind-of with QRM and also SMS on this one. Let me explain:
On one hand, I understand the need to adapt to a new community/culture/way of life, and thus understand the comments about "turning a blind eye" etc.
On another hand, I also think manners don't cost, they're free.
While some of us from certain countries of origin place somewhat higher value on such things, it's important to also understand that not all people will do the same.
The higher moral ground point that sim1310 made is one I closely associate with - it makes me sleep very well at night (unless I have a head cold which I picked up from some kid that in tow by an ang mo today (JOKING!!).
I hope I've added a little something here.
P
That being said, I'm kind-of with QRM and also SMS on this one. Let me explain:
On one hand, I understand the need to adapt to a new community/culture/way of life, and thus understand the comments about "turning a blind eye" etc.
On another hand, I also think manners don't cost, they're free.
While some of us from certain countries of origin place somewhat higher value on such things, it's important to also understand that not all people will do the same.
The higher moral ground point that sim1310 made is one I closely associate with - it makes me sleep very well at night (unless I have a head cold which I picked up from some kid that in tow by an ang mo today (JOKING!!).
I hope I've added a little something here.
P
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earthfriendly
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QRM, I find your posts amusing and thought provoking at the same time. Ha, ha, ha, these Singaporeans surely speak their minds and may I say, tact and diplomacy are not their strength. Ironically, it is also what makes them so lovable, sometimes.
I do not agree to the cane. There is alternative way of teaching kids discipline and respect.
I do not agree to the cane. There is alternative way of teaching kids discipline and respect.
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TennoHekka
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waz wrote:Hey Earthfriendly
While the resorting corporal punishment is the last resort, it should never be done away with. I have lived for many years in the land down under, kids are getting away with murder, literally, all in the name of protecting the child.
Nope. Corporal punishment on kids is akin to torture, there're better ways to bring up children, and if you don't allow pedophiles to torture and brutalize your kids, you shouldn't allow stupid and unfit parents to resort to the "rod" or whatever as and when they get mad coz they can't cope with family life. Parents who beat their kids deserve to lose them and wind up in prison.
Hi TH.
There is a difference between a parent and a paedophile.
I used to believe in sparing the cane. But having lived in different countries and see both sides of it, I have seen how effective corporal punishment is, if used in a control manner. But of course there will always be abused. Certain level of punishment should be allowed. Even Sg schools have them but done in a proper and formal way.
From where I am now, the absence of it have made the youth what they are now. Terrorizing teachers in school, unsafe to take a bus home, get beaten senselessly when out walking at night for no reason, wild uncontrolled parties where police get whack as well ..... all perpetrated by these so called school-going kids. They never learned coz the punishment is so light.
There is a difference between a parent and a paedophile.
I used to believe in sparing the cane. But having lived in different countries and see both sides of it, I have seen how effective corporal punishment is, if used in a control manner. But of course there will always be abused. Certain level of punishment should be allowed. Even Sg schools have them but done in a proper and formal way.
From where I am now, the absence of it have made the youth what they are now. Terrorizing teachers in school, unsafe to take a bus home, get beaten senselessly when out walking at night for no reason, wild uncontrolled parties where police get whack as well ..... all perpetrated by these so called school-going kids. They never learned coz the punishment is so light.
I work to live and not live to work.
An old thread and while we are in the strictly speaking section, it is quite an appropriate and funny video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn5jlrxcpkI
I'm with waz on this one.
It is all very good for 'experts' to say 'threat children as adults' and spare the rod, and that 'discussing the problem' will eventually resolve it.
In my opinion, discipline with potential use of corporal punishment is just one of the options for parenting.
If anything, I believe it prepares the child for real-world as depending on which country you are in : where you may get jail / caning / death etc and all the millions you spend on lawyers (talking) will not get you away scot-free.
Naturally, the idea it to execute the punishment as even headedly and consistently as possibly.
At the end of the day, one assumes parenting (whatever opinion you may have on corporal punishment) is also done with the childs interest and love in the context of the family/community.
Oh, QRM - love the video.
It is all very good for 'experts' to say 'threat children as adults' and spare the rod, and that 'discussing the problem' will eventually resolve it.
In my opinion, discipline with potential use of corporal punishment is just one of the options for parenting.
If anything, I believe it prepares the child for real-world as depending on which country you are in : where you may get jail / caning / death etc and all the millions you spend on lawyers (talking) will not get you away scot-free.
Naturally, the idea it to execute the punishment as even headedly and consistently as possibly.
At the end of the day, one assumes parenting (whatever opinion you may have on corporal punishment) is also done with the childs interest and love in the context of the family/community.
Oh, QRM - love the video.
For most of my life, I always thought corporal punishment applied to a misbehaving child would do the child good in the long run.
Of course years have gone by, and I am now the parent of a very young child, and I no longer feel this way.
That is not to say I automatically condemn corporal punishment. I got heaps of it when I was a child (mostly when explaing grades to my father), and I don't think it did me a shred of good at all. Conversely, I hardly suppose as an adult, that I have any deep-seated inscurities, fears or whatever other post-traumatic things associated with traumatic things!
Some parents may find it works for them, and some don't, although I suspect the latter case is more common.
I agree completely with Utopia. Even headedness and consistency is the key to disciplining a child, whether or not the cane is used.
I suspect that applying the cane is mostly useless because of the conflicting signals it sends the children when many parents do so. The child is caned, and right after that taken to a shopping mall and rewarded with a brand new toy. The child is caned is poor behaviour, but that very same evening sees his caregiver scream at the family maid for some minor transgression.
As for why 'kids are getting away with murder, literally, all in the name of protecting the child' in countries like Australia, I do think that the entire system, social, judicial, economic is too forgiving on juvenile offenders because they are 'young'.
But of course, any kind of social order and organization does not develop independently without the input of the indivudals who comprise it.
Why has the system become so much more lax? I would think it has a lot to do with how people in the West have seen their personal wealth increase over the few decades, with more free time to enjoy life and not needing to work to as hard as their fathers and mothers before them.
Naturally, people adopt a less harsh tone towards issues of many sorts and misbehaviours of many kinds. Grandparents who once had to work hard well into their greying years are now much more wont to spending time and money pampering and protecting their grandkids.
And also, I am sure the fact that couples are having far fewer children everywhere in wealthier countries automatically results in them pampering more what children they have. That children who once had to be adults by say 12 are now allowed to grow up only when they turn 50 or so.
It is the natural order of things. Disciplinary standards in Singapore are going the same way, as compared to the time I was growing up. A time when there was no such thing as domestic helpers, where only the wealthiest kids could afford enrichment classes becaus ethey cost a then-princely sum of S$14 an hour.
And a time whenever a child was misreported for misbehaviour, would get additional punishment of some sort from the parents before the parents did their fact finding. Hmm, maybe that's not such a bad thing if it helps keep chjildren in line.
Nowadays it has become 'my child is an angel and would never do such a thing'. Perhaps the second part is true, but the first, well almost impossible. I don't know any children who are angels, and I would be worried about his or her development if I saw one.
Anyway, I have decided with my wife that we will not be using corporal punishment on our boy because we agree that putting on a united front is key, and consistency can be applied without the use of force, so why use force?
And while I can't agree with TennoHekka's singular view on corporal punishment, I must admit that alot of it, from observation, is in fact the parent venting their frustrations on the most helpless victim.
Ahh, but coming to two, he is just sooo naughty!
Of course years have gone by, and I am now the parent of a very young child, and I no longer feel this way.
That is not to say I automatically condemn corporal punishment. I got heaps of it when I was a child (mostly when explaing grades to my father), and I don't think it did me a shred of good at all. Conversely, I hardly suppose as an adult, that I have any deep-seated inscurities, fears or whatever other post-traumatic things associated with traumatic things!
Some parents may find it works for them, and some don't, although I suspect the latter case is more common.
I agree completely with Utopia. Even headedness and consistency is the key to disciplining a child, whether or not the cane is used.
I suspect that applying the cane is mostly useless because of the conflicting signals it sends the children when many parents do so. The child is caned, and right after that taken to a shopping mall and rewarded with a brand new toy. The child is caned is poor behaviour, but that very same evening sees his caregiver scream at the family maid for some minor transgression.
As for why 'kids are getting away with murder, literally, all in the name of protecting the child' in countries like Australia, I do think that the entire system, social, judicial, economic is too forgiving on juvenile offenders because they are 'young'.
But of course, any kind of social order and organization does not develop independently without the input of the indivudals who comprise it.
Why has the system become so much more lax? I would think it has a lot to do with how people in the West have seen their personal wealth increase over the few decades, with more free time to enjoy life and not needing to work to as hard as their fathers and mothers before them.
Naturally, people adopt a less harsh tone towards issues of many sorts and misbehaviours of many kinds. Grandparents who once had to work hard well into their greying years are now much more wont to spending time and money pampering and protecting their grandkids.
And also, I am sure the fact that couples are having far fewer children everywhere in wealthier countries automatically results in them pampering more what children they have. That children who once had to be adults by say 12 are now allowed to grow up only when they turn 50 or so.
It is the natural order of things. Disciplinary standards in Singapore are going the same way, as compared to the time I was growing up. A time when there was no such thing as domestic helpers, where only the wealthiest kids could afford enrichment classes becaus ethey cost a then-princely sum of S$14 an hour.
And a time whenever a child was misreported for misbehaviour, would get additional punishment of some sort from the parents before the parents did their fact finding. Hmm, maybe that's not such a bad thing if it helps keep chjildren in line.
Nowadays it has become 'my child is an angel and would never do such a thing'. Perhaps the second part is true, but the first, well almost impossible. I don't know any children who are angels, and I would be worried about his or her development if I saw one.
Anyway, I have decided with my wife that we will not be using corporal punishment on our boy because we agree that putting on a united front is key, and consistency can be applied without the use of force, so why use force?
And while I can't agree with TennoHekka's singular view on corporal punishment, I must admit that alot of it, from observation, is in fact the parent venting their frustrations on the most helpless victim.
Ahh, but coming to two, he is just sooo naughty!
Situation, situation, situation.
I whip out corporeal punishment on certain issues and leave it on the shelf for others. Pun intended.
For instance, I have zero tolerance for a child ignoring the 'stop' command. It is an immediately actionable command that has no room for leniency. The consequence of this policy if my son is in danger is that I can confidently shout stop and he will stop. Immediately.
I prefer that he cringe and look wary rather than barrel in front of a speeding vehicle and submit me to the spectacle of watching the life being summarily crushed from his body.
I whip out corporeal punishment on certain issues and leave it on the shelf for others. Pun intended.
For instance, I have zero tolerance for a child ignoring the 'stop' command. It is an immediately actionable command that has no room for leniency. The consequence of this policy if my son is in danger is that I can confidently shout stop and he will stop. Immediately.
I prefer that he cringe and look wary rather than barrel in front of a speeding vehicle and submit me to the spectacle of watching the life being summarily crushed from his body.
The nature of Monkey was ... irrepressible!
QRM wrote:LOL haven't heard the word WOG for years brings back fond memories of Roberstons GollyWog jam. Yeah just ignore it if you take the bait it will just escalate.
The other day while chatting with some local parents, they were very surprised I have never "disciplined' my toddler as in never hit or threaten to beat her, I could not do it even if she set fire to the house. but they, regularly whip out the cane.
When I pointed out that its actually illegal to do that in the West, they come back saying that's probably explains why UK has the highest teenage pregnancy problems, truancy, and roaming gangs of 12 years old that have no fear of authorities. Westerners should sort out their own back yard before trying to tend to other peoples.
So its a touchy subject.
I have always wondered where people who claim that lack of corporal punishment is the root of all evil - sounds more like one of those urban myths.
I am more inclined to think that what is really happening in West (compared to here) is that parents are getting more and more hands-off in their children's education and development letting school and other organizations fill in the slack - with catastrophic results. Children in general and teenagers in particular need a lot of attention from the parents during their childhood.
Here parents are much more hands-on where the whole school time is planned in detail by the parents - it may not be ideal in all cases as they are not allowed muchg time to be children but at least they are not ignored.
$Pripps wrote:Here parents are much more hands-on where the whole school time is planned in detail by the parents - it may not be ideal in all cases as they are not allowed muchg time to be children but at least they are not ignored.
I would say this is rather about the local legal system where more serious offences are quickly traced down and the law is executed without any mercy and unnecessary delays. This is something present in the consciousness of the whole population so is naturally passed to the younger generation and they know there is no place to do anything stupid of this sort without sever consequences.
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sundaymorningstaple
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