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What's so bad about sending ours sons to NS???

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smashme1984
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Postby smashme1984 » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 4:39 pm

You guys are starting to sound like you're comparing dollar notes with bananas, there's almost no way of telling now unless you conduct an experiment with a time machine, put someone through life without N.S, document his life after, reverse time put the same guy brainwashed through NS and document his life again.. do that with another 200 men and get the result.

Yes the same lessons can be learnt out there, yes you might not get the opportunity to unless it was presented to you, yes some parts are time wasting, yes, you sit on the toilet bowl to wait a few minutes for that orgasmic release when the long one takes the dive, wasting a few minutes for a few moments of relief, aint it all dollars and bananas.

Good yes, bad yes.. learn from N.S, yes, learn from civilian life, yes, chopper pilots? How about talk about those who enlisted as Clerks, became commandos, enlisted and got killed during action, broke up with their childhood sweethearts, got a lifetime injury, or simply learnt how to deal with hardships.. its a debate with many variables
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 1:09 am

And at the end of the day it boils down to if nobody does national service then Singapore will be part of Malaysia or Indonesia. Do you really think the UK or the US gives a rats ass about this little red dot? If Singapore isn't willing to try to even help itself, then they don't have any right to piss and moan about what the government does or doesn't do. If you want rights, work for 'em and defend them. If Singapore were to become part of Malaysia again, the US would support Malaysia. Frankly it would make more sense to support Malaysia as they maybe there would be enough room for a US military port/base - something Singapore doesn't have enough room for.

JP, how much of all those various different courses that may well give me a survival edge over the pacifists would a peacenik actually go to on their own? Any at all? Doubtfully. Therefore they are ill equipped in times of emergency. Not only that, they would have no discipline (or the ability to actually know when to follow orders) and the only thing they could/would do is run like cowards instead of fighting for what is theirs. No wonder the fertility rate here is only 1.3. Singapore males of today don't have any cojones! They are becoming spineless momma's boys all because of the parents 'not wanting their children to have a hard life like they did" not realizing that they could be making it harder for them in the longer scheme of things.

Addadude, I know what you are saying, but that is just like any army. Not all will absorb everything and some are destined to be total screwups anyway. But with every manjack having to do it, at least there'll be sufficient numbers to at least make a stand and maybe hold their ground until her allies can fly in from Guam. Again, every military need cannon fodder as well.

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Postby jpatokal » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:41 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:JP, how much of all those various different courses that may well give me a survival edge over the pacifists would a peacenik actually go to on their own? Any at all?

Nice dodge, but that wasn't my question. My question is: what skills do you learn in the army, and how long would it take to acquire them outside the army if you wanted to?

Therefore they are ill equipped in times of emergency.

In times of actual emergency, you're unlikely to have a drill sergeant telling you what to do.

No wonder the fertility rate here is only 1.3. Singapore males of today don't have any cojones! They are becoming spineless momma's boys all because of the parents 'not wanting their children to have a hard life like they did" not realizing that they could be making it harder for them in the longer scheme of things.

You mean, despite all of them going to the army? Didn't you just say that doing NS is going to prevent that from happening? :P
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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:41 am

jpatokal wrote:
sundaymorningstaple wrote:No wonder the fertility rate here is only 1.3. Singapore males of today don't have any cojones! They are becoming spineless momma's boys all because of the parents 'not wanting their children to have a hard life like they did" not realizing that they could be making it harder for them in the longer scheme of things.

You mean, despite all of them going to the army? Didn't you just say that doing NS is going to prevent that from happening? :P


I am referring basically to the threads in the Strictly speaking forum about all the NS dodgers or wannabe dodgers. Also the penchant for a number of them to fall over dead during training alone and the rest whinning about how the girls are going to get ahead of them in the business world while they are in NS. I thought this was a patriarchal society? What happened and who wears the pants here now. What would they do in uncontrolled mayhem? But, most, as I said before, in hindsight, find that they are better off for having done NS.

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Postby ksl » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 2:34 am

National Service is a public duty of defence nothing more nothing less, and if people do not want to do it, they should be publicly announced and stripped of any subsidies and benefits, the country can do without them.

Many lives have been lost protecting Singapore, for the benefits of Singaporeans and I believe that anyone not willing to have pride in serving the public services should be blacklisted and pay higher tax.

By all means let them be free, with a sever penalty of tax, because it's nearly always those with money, that escape anyway.

For those that do NS, the curriculum should be changed, to include degree credits, more national sports and activity training, and a choice of service sector.

I believe it would be more beneficial for everyone, so i will se

nd a letter to the PM tomorrow :lol:

JP which Country did you do your NS in? Or is that classified information! BTW your private course's links will not give you the edge, without the experience..your NS sounds more like our prison service, loitering with intent.

All the same one should be proud of their Country they reside in, not the bums that run it! " I had a dream!" and i took the first step to realise it, be prepared for the worst scenario! or hope that the man next to you is, because it may save your life.

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:26 am

Hey ksl, I guess us old dinosaurs just came from a different era that understands that there are no free rides. :wink:

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Postby ksl » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:56 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:Hey ksl, I guess us old dinosaurs just came from a different era that understands that there are no free rides. :wink:
yep i guess you are right, my son never listens to me too, he always knows best, and now he's suffering too.....he just says, don't say it!(I told you so) They will never learn, they are just too darn cocky for their own good, and don't even realise how naïve they are, or just plain ignorant of the facts that practise saves the day! :lol:

I couldn't help but laugh, when my academic brother-in-law replaced his roof on the landed property, because their was a leak into the bathroom.

The lead flashing around the steam outlet pipe was damaged, the most of them have been raised in a over protective environment. I mean back packing is checking into youth hostels, or hotels these days, not roughing it, although i guess if the money is available, there is no need to leave the comfort zone :???:

Weak characters that always cry wolf, I've seen literally lots, when i supervised the recruits, on training, they always scream " I cannot do it, i want to go home, I didn't sign up for this" when it comes to testing peoples reactions under pressure, there is no better way, than let them face the elements, exhausted and without sleep, the team spirit starts to crack, and the real men stick out from the boys.

JP is right in a sense that NS didn't do anything for him, and it is really obvious to see, when he posts silly links to private courses. and believe he knows better.

There is a chinese saying " Give a man a fish and you feed him for the day, teach a man to fish and you feed him for life" It is really surprising how silly some of these posts appear, to those that have gained experience. although it is not for us to judge.

There time will eventually come! So character building and team work is what life is all about, thank god I'm still open minded enough to learn from others, like even in married life, how many couples have a first aid kit in their homes, smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, how many are really prepared for an emergency, we read every other day of accidents in Singapore and it is pretty obvious, with bars on the windows and doors, that these accidents will eventually happen, but how many are prepared for it, 1 in 500 or a thousand maybe.

I often get called paranoid although i see it from another view point, in fact yesterday I went to the police and said, they need to send someone down, to upper paya lebar road, before an accident occurs going down the hill. because of road works, the lane around the bend filters to one lane, however there is no warning sign, and the breaking distance is about 4 meters but on the bend, not enough if travelling at 50 or 60 km to avoid an accident and some will take that bend at maximum speed limit, because they know the road well, but do not know there are road works.

The warning sign needs to be around the bend approaching the road works and not on the bend it's only a matter of time before there is a pileup! The copper was actually aware of it, but had not done anything about it. he said he had almost hit the barrier too. :???: Anyway i made him ring for a traffic cop to visit.

Much of the practical is common sense and experience, and I believe that NS helps to develop a little more useful knowledge, to give food for thought. I have personally never thought of NS has a military force, because it is far from it.

That was proven in the war with Argentina and it would be too much to ask for a NS men to attack another, doomed to failure, so it is pointless bitching about serving, one should look at it as work experience in my opinion. but it is stigmatised.
Last edited by ksl on Fri, 09 Jan 2009 1:23 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Postby smashme1984 » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 1:06 pm

Hey KSL, I understand where you come from, and I have some of that sentiments sometimes too, but what I've learnt so far, is that it happens with every generation, are we degenerating to nothingness? If every upper generation can say something about how we've fallen back, are we falling to nothingness? The truth is, we're not, many a time, what we say to diss the youth, we ourselves did it too, we just fail o see the hardships some youngsters go through as well, because it is human nature to be proud of ourselves, our own hardships always outshine others'.

As we get past our hurdles, we also forget and let go of the silly little details, think and reminisce hard and we'll recall the embarrassing moments we each had as well. So, its just change thats happening, we shouldn't put down our youths, there are still good ones out there.
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Postby ksl » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 3:05 pm

smashme1984 wrote:Hey KSL, I understand where you come from, and I have some of that sentiments sometimes too, but what I've learnt so far, is that it happens with every generation, are we degenerating to nothingness? If every upper generation can say something about how we've fallen back, are we falling to nothingness? The truth is, we're not, many a time, what we say to diss the youth, we ourselves did it too, we just fail o see the hardships some youngsters go through as well, because it is human nature to be proud of ourselves, our own hardships always outshine others'.

As we get past our hurdles, we also forget and let go of the silly little details, think and reminisce hard and we'll recall the embarrassing moments we each had as well. So, its just change that's happening, we shouldn't put down our youths, there are still good ones out there.


I can agree with most of what you say and i agree we oldies have done much the same, without being financially sound, on the other hand, I believe you are missing the point of NS.

Today many countries around the world follow a typical pattern of anti social behaviour, because Governments don't care or lack the insight to see the long term effects of social neglect, This is prevalent in major Countries like the US, France Germany UK, the deterioration of values is a major problem, and I believe that if the UK had NS, it would solve many of it's social declines, the lack of respect for others and property, is a major problem.

In stead of hanging around street corners in the hoodie gangs, speculating on who they should mug next. It is the social responsibility of both parents and government to be pro active, and i believe Public service NS is a very good starting point, although over exaggerated with the military blockheaded drill sergeant, it so happens that the majority go through a character change, right or wrong, they get a taste of discipline and either respect or don't respect, my point is, that not all blockheads are idiots, and one should show some respect and learn, that you cannot beat the system. the system owns you whether you like it or not. Even a total anarchist must be wise enough to ride the waves, or spend much time in prison.

Again tread carefully, be polite and respectful to people and you will not get a punch in the mouth, and wonder why it happened, and yes I have nutted a Staff Sergeant Royal Marines, when he placed his hand on my shoulder and said fill your boots! Meaning he wasn't going to pay me, the money he owed me.

If i had punched him, I could have been charged under the queens rules and regulations, but there is no such rule for striking with the head, he was court marshalled, but in general i had respect for him up until that moment. It turned out he was quite a con artist and owed money to many. So maybe many people fall through the system, but one does have a choice to not buck the system, it doesn't matter which Country, the fact is you are owned by a system like it or not.

The money spent on national service and the theories behind NS, need to be revamped so that everyone excepts work experience, rather than a regimental bashing, although a form of regimental discipline is needed for conformity just like in any other educational establishment.

A breakdown in discipline is a very expensive cost for any government in the long run, Singapore is strict and runs the Country with an Iron hand, to stamp out criminality, but their will always be those that take the risks anyway.

A public spirited and caring workforce needs to be educated in many ways, than just academic points and those kids that get a 100$ a week pocket money, won't give a toss, so you are right, that they are only doing what some of us old farts did, but at least we had the respect to call our neighbours by their title, and not shout hey wanker, or push them out of the way.

I believe also that Singaporeans quick rise through the ranks, to a first class country, left something behind, which will eventually catch up for the better, and that is general manners and respect for others, many cannot see the need to be polite, and why is that?

Could it be that the generations have passed nothing on, or the kids totally rebelled against politeness. Kids should be encouraged to serve their Country and show respect for others, and if NS is done correctly, it would be a fine time to install pride and education at the same time.

Our junior soldiers, join at 16 and spend 2 years on education, basically it is a character building exercise, which gives them an advantage over the regulars, also for promotion, one learns, that respect is really earned, and the person doing the blockheaded shouting may well be more qualified and experienced academically, assuming that one is much superior than the other, is bigotry and nothing more, which is more likely to be caused by over indulgience in ones own ego or character defect..

My daughter is 8 years old I am 58, and all her school friends envy her, i said why? She said daddy you do everything with me every day, even home work, others get caned if they fail exams, or don't live up to their parents wishes.

I have in laws that are 10 and 14 years old and not allowed to play in the park, but have to be at the work place doing home work with more being spent on their education, than we earn a month, not allowed pets, and not allowed independancy.

It sure isn't easy to raise kids and i quite often have to checkmate my own daughter and shout respect, or punishment, it's her choice, i give her respect and the ability to be independant, but i will not have bad manners, laziness, or back chatting, she is insistent on telling me she knows everything at the age of 8 and of course guidance is required, not to destroy her own development or character, eitherway, the balance is a fine line that needs to be observed.

But my own main points, are respect, not to be selfish, good table manners, to be polite, hygiene, and to listen, and learn. also not to use Singlish to me, even though it is the local language, i don't care, it is not the correct way, of speaking English and if change is to happen in Singapore, it is up to parents to change it with discipline, and respect for the good of social behaviour.

If NS is as bad, as JP says it is, then it needs to be evaluated more closely, so that imrpovements maybe implemented, there must be a think tank someplace, that discontentment can be listened too, the actual cost of NS, doesn't come cheap, so it is better to implement more value for satisfaction, even if it means studying at the same time as work experience.

I am not a great enthusiast of UK politics because it shows no respect for it's people, the majority, with the structure of the UK being flawed through traditions, rather than peoples mistakes.

I had heard from my uncle that in the war time, half the British wouldn't leave the pubs, and that is why pub opening and closing times where set. someone must be responsible for large scale social decline.

NS is a good thing, even if some do not believe in it, ask those that have done it, and i believe the majority will be in favour.

In terms of security risk of foreigners with passports of other Countries, it's not a big issue, these people would need classification, and wouldn't be subject to sensitive information.

My life as a pro, was also tarnished I believe, because my father was sympathetic to the Irish Catholics cause, because of family in Ireland, although he respected i had a job to do, and it wasn't my choice and that was as a peace keeper and target for both sides. why because we love the Irish, there are more good, than bad that also volunteered to serve the good of Ireland no matter what religion..

Lets not be so naive to believe that 30 years of terrorism goes away, just because of a peace agreement, the main problems need to be solved, so the pacifists of today, will likely see their own children involved in the trouble of the future and take note, terrorism knows no sympathy, anywhere in the world, pacifist or not, you or your relatives may well be the target, although yes, what are the chances!

Let's say the more you drop your guard, the more chance it will happen, whether these NS men survive the attack, will depend on their alertness on the job. You can bet your 2$ that plans are being discussed, to get fame around the world, to be the first to jolt Singaporeans into reality.

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Postby smashme1984 » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:47 pm

Deep and well said, I agree with most points you said, however, I will liek to point out about what I feel the character development in our youths today come from, national service being a part, we have to look at our education systems, most of them failed, or are failing to keep up with new trends as life and social style change. technology change, children are communicating in different ways too, interacting, playing etc. with modern technology.. its quite alot about change and adapting.
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Postby ksl » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:18 am

smashme1984 wrote:Deep and well said, I agree with most points you said, however, I will liek to point out about what I feel the character development in our youths today come from, national service being a part, we have to look at our education systems, most of them failed, or are failing to keep up with new trends as life and social style change. technology change, children are communicating in different ways too, interacting, playing etc. with modern technology.. its quite alot about change and adapting.


Agreed, you hit the nail on the head!!! The only thing not changing is NS, it appears none attractive, when it can be made to be attractive and productive, with the amount of money they spend, education and degree's could also be a part of the 2 or 3 year internment :lol: A little harsh i know, but that's how those that hate it, will feel! But it is a government requirement, so what to do, but enjoy it by making the most of it. Not everyone is into uniforms :lol: I just speculate, just how many would jump ship, if given the opportunity, if they could continue university studies too at a discount on a part time basis.

Some kind of rota system would have to be implemented i guess!

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Postby andy21 » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:07 pm

I enjoy disparaging the Singapore armed forces anytime I can, and call it a waste of time amongst other things.

But it has to be acknowledged that Singapore's defence force (with a shocking lot of offensive capability of course) is pretty well-oiled, funded and trained and which I have no doubt is capable of inflicting tremendous damage on any of our neigbours if they ever present a clear and present danger.

That said, I am not proud of being in it (a highly unmotivated and poorly trained member of it I am). I see absolutely no reason why I, or anyone for that matter should be trained in the art of killing or maiming anyone else, directly or indirectly.

I take no pride in being a citizen of this country, and find it strange that anyone should feel otherwise about theirs, regardless of what country they come from.

It is true that 2 years is not that great a deal of time to 'waste' considering one's entire lifespan, but I feel it certainly is 2 years (2 half in my time) that no one should need to waste unless they choose to.

My most recent 2-week coerced internment for my reservist training went something like this:

Sit around, lie around, do nothng. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

Have a 1 hour lecture on Singapore's new G3 army, and everyone's asleep by the time the poor major from G-something branch of the army is done that it takes 10 secs before any applause begins.

Sit around, lie around, do nothng. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

Prepare to go to the field for a couple of days (that part does suck!). Go there, be extremely uncomfortable for the time, hope you don't need to do a big one.

Sit around, lie around, do nothng. Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

Attend some change of command ceremony for some incoming and outgoing person of some sort of rank. No one knows who they are, what they command, but apparently, they are worthy of our congratulations anyway.

Go home.


So for any of you who have always wondered what your friends and colleagues go trhough when they leave the office for their in-camp training, this is pretty much it.

Unless they're officers, in which case they have a whole lot more to do, and an extra 10 years of service to enjoy.

Being an officer used to mean something imo, now it's pretty much a joke. 2 years of service. 3 months spent in basic training, 10 months spent being trained to be an officer. 9 months of actually being an officer. Something just doesn't add up.

The other thing that really makes me want to puke each time I go back in though, is not so much the huge sums of money being spent on the SAF, but the way it is spent.

Catering contracts go to Singapore Food Industires. Any kind of computing contract goes to SCS/NCS ad nauseum. The SAF simply condenses everything I intensely detest about the ruling body of this country.

And well, alot of regulars (the people who have signed on to serve in the armed forces as a livelihood) are in my opinion, people of extremely low calibre and competence. Which does explain perfectly why they're in there as well. When you have trouble filling your ranks, you really can't be too picky.

Once upon a time, commanders of armies in many places were rewarded with tracts of land, women amonsgt other things to ensure their loyalty to the monarch. Not always successfully. It is sort of reveresed here. Here they serve their time, loyally and dutifully, and they are rewarded with cushy civil service positions upon discharge. Core competence in their area of industry is not required, often undesired. Sort of like the position of President of Singapore.

SMS. 'the NS network is as good if not better than the "Old school tie" network ever though about being. As yes, if you have enjoyed being brought up in the relatively safety net of Singapore and have enjoyed the schooling and other socio-economic benefits then yes you owe it to the country as a matter of debt. '

I agree with the NS netwrok part, in many cases it is as powerful as the old school tie network you speak about. As for the second, I suppose I am only half in agreement.

It is a little bit like expecting one's children to take care of oneself in own's old age. Not quite fair imo. Myself, I plan to make sure my infant son will not be in a position where he has to do NS whether or not he likes it. I believe that a child properly raised, at 18 is fully capable of making choices for himself or herself.

If he chooses to do so, by all means. It might be good for him. Or it may not.

Rambling and at parts incoherent I believe. Apologies.

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Postby Forks » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 1:14 pm

I did my time in the military (4 plus years) and I choose to go in. Had I been compelled I doubt that it would have had the positive effect on me as it did.

And whats this about owing a "debt" to society as the qualification for NS or "being made a man" I tire of hearing such arguments. Its stock standard. Yes give back to your community and if your country was under attack rally to the defence of the nation but there are so many ways to pay a debt. Call me idealistic but govts are supposed to serve their people.

The military life is a specialist one and most people dont groove with it, or get it or even like it. I did but thats me. Many of my fellows didnt, and sometimes couldnt.

And as the as the above poster mentioned its all a lot of "hurry up and wait" because thats what militaries do when not actually fighting or training.

Two years, sure pay of your "debt" to society but in Singapore there are other ways, the police, Civil defence, Fire fighters, and many other ways which could be far more useful and beneficial to society at large.

Or take the road advocated by Robert Heinlein in Starship Troopers and make military service a prerequisite of Citizenship or some higher benefit like free higher education or golf club membership or whatever. At least then people could see some tangible benefit of it, now its seen as 2 years of corvee labor.

Then of course there are wars, things might change if there was an army camped across the water planning to attack singapore, but then you wont need to make it an obligation people will just do it, or at worst understand why they are being conscripted.

Most NS men I meet and talk too have the same story, 2 years spent doing little, get trained in a skill you use and then forget after 2 years (as missile battery commander doesnt translate well into civilian life) and then remain on call up until 40. They saw it as anything as time spent with friends and doing what soldiers do when left to their own devices, find ways to goof off, sleep, and do as little as possible when not required.

The military can give you skills for life but thats not an exclusive realm of the military, may other organizations exist which can build confidence, leadership and teamwork and focus it much better than a military can, schools are a great example.

National Service should be more than just military service, service to the nation in any way possible.

If Singapore was in a situation like Israel then NS would have more meaning but it isnt.

And besides the Singapore military is a highly technological force, with lots of expensive conventional weapons and vehicles but the majority of wars in the world, and almost all in this part of it are unconventional. If you have to NS old skool style then why not make it more relevant to the kind of wars Singapore might be involved in.

There was a time when being a man meant some right of passage and often that passage was being in battle. Sadly that idea still persists today and we rant against negative stereotypes for women but somehow still think its ok for such an idea about men to exist.

Battles used to be (and we are talking 200 plus years ago) short one day affairs or part of a campaign, so going out and making you bones was likely to be over and done in an afternoon, and the lethality of the battle ment that if you were killed you were killed but if not you would be ok.

Now its PTSD, Gulf war syndrome, agent orange, acid flashbacks, Heroin, boredom, friendly fire, venereal disease, alcoholism, a bus bomb and a host of others which will get you, and you cant steel yourself against such things (and many of those are before you even get to the "battle").

Modern war chews the human being up and has little regard for them, its a rain of cluster bombs, anti personnel mines, snipers, and a range of anonymous and impersonal means of dying, ambushes and other things which little training can prepare you for, and we expect people to come out of that and say they are "men".

My four years toughed me up alright, made me able to resist the pain and push on without complaining, but much of that was already there and like my fellows you either had it or you did not and those who did not were always weeded out. But I wasnt a "man" when I left, the significant things of my military times...

Resistance to pain
Physical endurance
Mental hardening to boredom and fatigue
a perverse sense of humor (that might have been just me).

There is also pride and self worth but again I had those beofre I went in, and I knew many who were as introverted or screwed up as they were when they joined, who commited crimes and did immoral acts. The notion of the loyal/nobel soldier is a myth often perpetuated by ex soldiers such as myself. What made me feel special about my military service was that i knew I was part of a force which was doing things that most people couldn't and didnt want to do, conscripts cannot feel the same.

Loyalty to your battalion, division or military is not the same as an improvement of self. Honor can come without having to wear cammo and time spent dodging bullets.,those who have, no offense intended and you should know what I mean anyway. Self discipline can come from doing a martial art, joining the Freemasons, a religion or a range of organizations.

The greatest quality that can come out of any time spent in the military is comradeship, friendship and bonds that can last a lifetime, in some times bonds forged in war but in other times bonds forged in the heat of mind numbing boredom and opposition to the Sargents. My friends from that time are special to me even if I havnt seen them for a long long time, That is somethings special that can come from any long period of time spent struggling together.


If Singapore had a volunteer military it would be a better thing, a much smaller but more motivated force (as all volunteer militaries are) and I dont think its credibility to its defence or deterrent would be lessened, it could be increased as anyone who was planning to attack Singapore would very most likely try to strike at the fabric of reservists wills and perceptions long before they attacked. Which is whats happening in the Israel/Gaza conflict at the moment. And the IDF is wary to let its reservists get into too much battle for the same reasons, wuld Singapore be any different?

We live in modern times where almost every other aspect of life is a specialization, requiring training and experience to do (builder, chef, train driver, engineer, doctor, home maker, parent etc etc etc) yet come crunch time its expected that a small core force supported by a large body of conscripts and reservists will cut the mustard, let hope the attackers are not planning to go 911 style coz then the ability of the military to defend the nation will be nil.

If my own kids were called upon in such a situation I would encourage them to go but not into the military, better they serve the nation in another way.
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Postby Global Citizen » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 7:05 pm

Don't have much to add here but just wanted to say I enjoyed reading both Andy21's and Forks's posts.
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Postby ksl » Fri, 16 Jan 2009 3:22 pm

Smashme1984 and Forks are talking a lot of sense, i can see that, but has a military instructor, I would disagree on one main points.


Out of 100 recruits, how many do you think would voluntarily test their own threshold for endurance, pain, fitness, character, and initiative.

The last one initiative is very rarely used or developed, especially in Singapore, where it appears, that you are not allowed to express your thoughts.

All of the above training takes time to adapt, even though you may think you have it, you will never know until it's put to the test, only then can you feel relived that you got through it.

Out of 100 recruits, i would be very surprised if 3 would actually go out of their way, to challenge their own peak abilities, and the peaks cannot be reached without training and development.

Compared to civilian life, most managers, do not have these abilities or express their own interest in developing their interests, and skills.

Admittedly some would be following their own sports and hobbies individually, being thrown into a group, is what it takes to challenge a persons, motivation and initiative, the competitive spirit is what business and creative development is all about, so I sincerely believe that the two years of upheaval in the life of the NS, outweighs the negative talk on this board, and if you give it some thought, you will know that i am right.

I agree, that Singapore NS may not be up to the challenge of some, although those that feel that way, should be in the position to encourage those, that are falling behind, team work is not about satisfying ones ego, but about pulling together as a team, when called upon to do so.

It's obvious that the NS training needs to be looked into, and parents that reside here, need to work as a team, to have any changes made, that also takes balls, and initiative to voice your opinions, to those that are authorised to do something about it.

The fact is NS is a government duty and all the complaint in the world, will not make a bit of difference if their isn't sufficient evidence by people pulling together and making those changes through diplomatic approaches, rather than complaining.

I agree with the personal motto i use, that says "Where there is a will, there is a way" and if all course are beneficial to ones own development and skills to help others, then it can only be positive thing. Your own ego for self, comes later by achievement of your own needs for satisfaction, hence the reasons one looks back on the team work, thinking it was a waste of time.

Nothing one does is more of a waste of time, than the years you spend being indoctrinated by books, and university phd's that have no real life experience only theories, when they have put those theories to the test, only then will you have the respect for them.

Proving the facts in the real world to oneself is the only way of knowing if you are capable of achieving the challenges in life that are useful to others and your own aims of how far you wish to go.

There are far too many self egoistic failure, in the real world, and those in public life, that have damaged the lives of many through their own blindness to get second opinions, will suffer the shame and punishment.

I refer to Phd unmarried doctors, that are famed by their professions and theories, to take children away from their parents, based on their experience and fame in the academic world, only to discover she had been sexually assaulted herself as a child, and her tormented mind, was responsible for all the damage caused.

That episode went on for 10 years or more, before it was finally exposed, that her theories, couldn't hold water, she was jailed in the UK. respected in their achievements, it does much more good, to share social skills and developments in a team of comrades, than to be left to fester in ones own superior world of self indulgence

So my point is that those that knowing there are two sides to the coin, have a choice to choose, and not all are successful in choosing the right side, which for me, is very significant in who i respect and who i am very cautious of, it matters, and if you cannot recognise these differences, or don't care, you put yourself at the risk, of those that make claims to know it all! How very wrong they are! Although they may make very good salesman, con artists, and such, they make very bad teachers :)

I would like to see Singapore citizens enjoy their NS, no matter how they feel, it is far from negative! Although like said, it needs a change from Singaporean Citizens families themselves.

Ideally is to take the best sides of all other countries and see what you are left with, with a positive gaol to achieve of defence only, and those that do not wish involment, so be it, tax them and take their benefits.

The double sided coin is the team or the player! Whichever way, the majority will win.


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