Singapore Expats Forum

What's so bad about sending ours sons to NS???

Discuss about the latest news & interesting topics, real life experience or other out of topic discussions with locals & expatriates in Singapore.

User avatar
ScoobyDoes
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1650
Joined: Wed, 29 Nov 2006
Location: A More Lucky Spot

Postby ScoobyDoes » Tue, 06 Jan 2009 9:23 pm

QRM wrote:What would happen if lets say Singapore declares war on the UK? What happens to the UK passport holding PR guys in NS.


What i wonder is IF that same SG declares war on a country and runs into trouble......whose embassy do you run to for ane emergency evacuation, that's right the one where your passport comes from.

Does a Singapore embassy in this circumstance have the right to deny access to anybody not holding a SG passport for example?

User avatar
Saint
Director
Director
Posts: 3535
Joined: Thu, 16 Jun 2005
Location: The Juban Stand, Boat Quay
Contact:

Postby Saint » Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:36 pm

ScoobyDoes wrote:
QRM wrote:What would happen if lets say Singapore declares war on the UK? What happens to the UK passport holding PR guys in NS.


What i wonder is IF that same SG declares war on a country and runs into trouble......whose embassy do you run to for ane emergency evacuation, that's right the one where your passport comes from.

Does a Singapore embassy in this circumstance have the right to deny access to anybody not holding a SG passport for example?


Also,

When Singapore sends a rocket to Mars and brings back a little green Martian, just what visa will it be granted? :-k

Blue Sapphire
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat, 28 Jul 2007
Location: Central

Postby Blue Sapphire » Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:57 pm

Glad to hear that there are alot of people for NS. And I dont mind it, I'm sure it can be beneficial in some way. It is a little price to pay to a country we want to make our home.

My son has 4 nationalities to pick from and so far I've given him mine which is from small islands in the middle of nowhere that has no chance of declaring war on anyone or even being involved haha. Good thing we are now independent and not a british or french colony any longer! I'll just make sure he doesnt get a German passport.

User avatar
sundaymorningstaple
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 34262
Joined: Thu, 11 Nov 2004
Location: Still Fishing!
Contact:

Postby sundaymorningstaple » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:01 am

jpatokal wrote:In civil service, changing old folks' diapers, scrubbing hospital toilets or rescuing cats from trees is actually useful to somebody, but in NS, nothing you do will ever serve any useful purpose at all.


When the first bomb goes off then you will see what purpose it serves. It's just like riding a bike. You get rusty but you never forget. I've used my military training a number of times in a number of countries as well as my own after getting my discharge from active duty. Survival courses you don't forget. Medical training you don't forget. I haven't forgotten how to fly a chopper although I might have some problem initially with hovering motionless just like getting on a bicycle would be after 35 years of not riding. You don't forget how, just get a bit rusty but it all comes back quickly. field stripping an M-16 is just like touch typing. you don't even have to think about it. Civilian life. We live in troubled times. Might be an awful lot that could come in handy in peacetime.

Even the Singapore chopper pilots were a big help during Katrina. That was a Gaia Terror attach launched on New Orleans remember? So there are lots and lots of lessons that you have used even from YOUR NS days as well. You have just forgotten about 'em.

User avatar
Wind In My Hair
Manager
Manager
Posts: 2306
Joined: Tue, 19 Jul 2005

Postby Wind In My Hair » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:10 am

QRM wrote:What would happen if lets say Singapore declares war on the UK? What happens to the UK passport holding PR guys in NS.

This is the reason Singapore does not allow dual citizenship - problem of divided loyalties. In any case, in the event of conflict, I'm quite sure we'll assume that anyone with an alternative will flee the country.

QRM wrote:Has the NS every fired in anger? or have they always been shooting at cardboard soldiers that don't fire back?

Our regulars, let alone NS men, have never been tested in real war. It's a huge question mark what will happen if the time should ever come.

User avatar
BodyBlitz
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue, 06 Jan 2009
Contact:

Postby BodyBlitz » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 1:04 am

In reality we're more prepared than our neighbors that's for sure.

Relief efforts to Indonesia during the tsunami proved a point that we can mobilize and invade a country in 48 hours - even before they could reach their own country men.
We do have war time roles with peace keeping mission in Iraq.

We do not have the might of china/US thats why we're always trying to kiss their ass and lure them here to safe guard us however our military capacity is far more superior.

I've been in international exercises with Aussy/English/Kiwi and malaysian navy before..

All i can say is that malaysian were no where to be found half way through the exercise.

User avatar
QRM
Manager
Manager
Posts: 1831
Joined: Mon, 17 Oct 2005
Location: Nassim hill

Postby QRM » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 1:14 am

BodyBlitz wrote:
All i can say is that malaysian were no where to be found half way through the exercise.


Thats because they where smart enough to turn on the stealth switch.

An army or navy is pretty useless if everyone know where they are.

User avatar
BodyBlitz
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue, 06 Jan 2009
Contact:

Postby BodyBlitz » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 1:16 am

err.. they were on the same side as us..
We were trying to contact them to give them instructions as we're the command ship. lol

Blue Sapphire
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 220
Joined: Sat, 28 Jul 2007
Location: Central

Postby Blue Sapphire » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 2:17 am

And the funny thing is. My brother who was born in Singapore but was never brought up here wish he could join NS just for the sake of going to military and getting some military skills. He is looking into gaining something for himself and not caring that it could mean serving a country he has really nothing much to do with.

User avatar
ksl
Governor
Governor
Posts: 6005
Joined: Mon, 19 Jul 2004
Location: Singapore
Contact:

Postby ksl » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 4:00 am

Personally I feel one must really want to do NS to enjoy it, those that have never been members of the boy scouts, girl guides, army cadets, would never really understand how traditional hierarchy structure works. Graduates who have never worked haven't a clue either, discipline and respect is a valuable assets to have, and many academics do not have it, and will never have it. yes it will effect their positions.

I say to my wife quite often, because i cannot tolerate lateness and untidiness, YOUR SACKED! with humour!

National service is very important i believe for character building, and i can remember back in the 60's before i left school, that one kid who had been caught stealing several times, was give the option, to go to the young offenders prison or the military junior leaders. It certainly changed him

National Service is about defence, especially for Singapore, there is hardly any threat at all. And I know the UK are on 24 hr standby for any emergencies around the world Sing being a strategic point of value will not be handed to the commies on a plate, although they may enter the Island across the causeway on bikes.

But I do agree with JP, that there maybe some blockheads around, that are macho and want to grind your son down on a psychological level. it takes tolerance and a kind of indifference to put up these kind of blockheads, but one shouldn't fear them.

Basically there are several reasons for the hard discipline, it's called a short sharp jerk in the right direction, for those, that are bullies, cliche types, ring leaders, and delinquents, everyone is thrown into the same circumstance and a camaraderie is normally adopted to survive, although for those that are bullied and suffer in silence, it's pure hell.

One may well think NS, is not a professional army like the US or British, but it doesn't have to be, because arseholes are every where in every Country, and we either suffer them at work, or out at night, and in the services.

But NS does have an effect on these type of people, that cause trouble, their high spirits and hard boiled heads, can be broken down systematically and rebuilt, to show respect to others, bullies soon understand they cannot beat the system, they may want to beat the sergeant, but will suffer the system if that happens, eventually the hard case is turned into a careworker, a team player.

It is very important not to tolerate bullying, difficult because no one want's to be called a snitch either, but all the blockhead shouting is all about traditional character building, survival training, iniative trg and respect for others is normally taught along with team work.

I was training recruits for the last 3 years of my service, and I can tell you quite honestly, that todays professional army, isn't what it was in the 60's or 70's.
The blockheads used to shout at me too, and i said to one sergeant why do you have to shout all the f--king time at me, he said sonny when you have to put up, with some of the pussy's, that they let in the army today, you will understand, you have two left feet, now get back in bloody line and get it right.

Are you insinuating i'm a pussy sergeant? He would soon get the message, that i was detached and i wasn't concentrating and he could shout as much as he wanted with no effect.

Then afterwards, he explained that, when i got to the rank of sergeant, I would understand the traditions that have to be kept up.

Where our training puts more in hospitals, because the army chooses to put the Scottish or Irish regiments against the British, because of the pure motivational factors of competitiveness.
Occasionally over enthusiasm happens and hand to hand combat is the result, no one wishes to be the losers of course.

It's all changed, human rights, and all that in fact many don't even get fined anymore, myself, well I was on jankers quite often, do the crime you suffer the consequences.

Their is a very large network in Singapore of ex NS my wife's brother - in - law tells me, he still has contact with all his NS mates.

It is without a doubt a positive move for character building, that many people who have never served in a force, wouldn't actually know about. Even the Salvation Army has it's training.

I would personally feel more comfortable, knowing that the guy next to me was trained in many practical skills, from first aid, to fire fighting and casualty evacuation, than a guy with only a degree and not much common sense, or practical experience in life, they become more of a liability in cases of emergencies.

It is true that many long term servicemen cannot adapt to civilian life, mainly due to the lack of respect and jealousy of the civilian, it really pisses civilians off, when an ex serviceman comes into the work place, and works, rather than doss around, or like most workers, do as little as possible.

I've also been the victim of it, and to be honest if a company can't keep me employed, I don't see why i should waste my time with the Company, i have better things to do, than hang around, so Plavt is right, when one has had to work 24 hrs a day, with no overtime. It is difficult to hang around not working, but very easy for civilians, they have done it all their lives and those that work hard, have difficulty respecting dossers.

That is one reason why i would employ a NS man first, before an academic.
It's only when one has to pull together, that the difference shows, but that Character of loyalty to duty and each other is needed from the beginning and if you do not have it, or develop it, while serving, you will very likely never know what it's all about, when it's hard going.

That is to say, maybe in your civillian employment you are asked to pull your weight, and not go home, because you are needed do you have the staying power. many will cringe at the thought of having to do extra work without pay to save the company from going under, where do loyalties lie.

It is a well known fact, that stealing from work can actually bring a company to it's knees, it happend at a car manufacturing unit in the UK, the work force of thousands, where taking car spares home and selling them too.

In the military anyone caught stealing would be severly dealt with, it happens, but in general it would be dealt with first hand, if it continued they would be out, court marshalled and is not tolerated by anyone.

Of course some slip through the net, and a weakness of character, will remain with them for the rest of their lives, they are stamped. Be sure NS is a positive step for any young boy, to become a man with confidence. The rest are still being assessed!

User avatar
BodyBlitz
Chatter
Chatter
Posts: 258
Joined: Tue, 06 Jan 2009
Contact:

Postby BodyBlitz » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 2:38 pm

That's just you ksl, the reality is that businesses are cutting cost with influx of Chinese/Indonesian/Philippines nationals are allow through the flood gates without discrimination.

As a business owner, would you fork out $1800 to a Singaporean and $1000 to a Chinese national who has the same job qualification/experience, who'd you hire?

And the worst bit for Singaporean's is that the government have the cheek to say, "yes there are so many jobs! But you Singaporeans are just picky and complacent!"

Then they go on to price hikes, increase taxes etc... the middle class (mostly diploma grads) are squashed to support both ends of the spectrum which is where the majority of Singaporean is at.

With the cost of transport/day to day expenses/food/bills/insurance and helping out with the family's expenses - sometimes even 1.8k - upper range for diploma holders (1.4 after CPF) is hardly making ends meet.

What more if someone else comes in and takes your job, you'd feel outraged too. In short as a Singaporean, you are royally screwed as you've gave 2 years of your life to the country, have a commitment to be passive meat shields in war time for 10 years or till the age of 40 yet there are no policy in place that gives you job security or priority.

User avatar
jpatokal
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3014
Joined: Tue, 09 Dec 2003
Location: Terra Australis Incognita

Postby jpatokal » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 3:27 pm

road.not.taken wrote:Isn't that because it is impossible to measure maturation? From those I know who have served national service, the benefits have mostly been intangibles. There's just no yardstick to measure growing up or gaining life lessons, learning to comply and how to deal. I have 4 brothers -- I think my parents would have embraced a program which gave them 2 more years to grow up before entering the 'real world'.

I was 25 and had graduated university, completed several stints studying and working overseas, hitchhiked across Japan, spent three months backpacking solo around Europe and the Middle East and had found a good job by the time I did my NS. Any one of those taught me more "life lessons" than what I learned in NS. Who's going to teach me maturity there, my 19-year-old sergeant who went there straight from high school? :???:
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

TennoHekka
Regular
Regular
Posts: 86
Joined: Wed, 07 Jan 2009
Location: Twilight Zone?

Postby TennoHekka » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 3:30 pm

Don't fret! Sg's NS a breeze compared to what goes on in the IDF, the US, Russian or even the ROK military. One accident, they suspend everything, they're not allowed to swear at your kid now (versus my days!), and the CMO's office is on top of everything. I am tempted to say more, but what the hell, I'm not gonna frighten the mods here into thinking they're gonna get a knock on the door or something! In short, most survive, most won't come back twisted (they might lose their gfs while in the army though!), and its something to laugh about unless he gets a reservist notice every ^%&%& year thereafter! :P

User avatar
jpatokal
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 3014
Joined: Tue, 09 Dec 2003
Location: Terra Australis Incognita

Postby jpatokal » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 3:44 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:When the first bomb goes off then you will see what purpose it serves. It's just like riding a bike. You get rusty but you never forget. I've used my military training a number of times in a number of countries as well as my own after getting my discharge from active duty. Survival courses you don't forget. Medical training you don't forget. I haven't forgotten how to fly a chopper although I might have some problem initially with hovering motionless just like getting on a bicycle would be after 35 years of not riding. You don't forget how, just get a bit rusty but it all comes back quickly. field stripping an M-16 is just like touch typing. you don't even have to think about it. Civilian life. We live in troubled times. Might be an awful lot that could come in handy in peacetime.

Whoohoo, finally the practical bits I was asking for! Now let's see. In the private sector...


Even a really conservative estimate of all of the above combined would be less than half a year full-time, and virtually all of that is for piloting choppers. For the rest, you could easily learn standard NS-level first aid, jungle survival and gun handling in a month.

And oh, there's one more thing I learned in NS: by the time the first bomb goes off, you should already have gotten the hell away.
Vaguely heretical thoughts on travel technology at Gyrovague

User avatar
Addadude
Reporter
Reporter
Posts: 683
Joined: Fri, 26 May 2006
Location: Darkest Telok Blangah
Contact:

Postby Addadude » Wed, 07 Jan 2009 3:46 pm

sundaymorningstaple wrote:When the first bomb goes off then you will see what purpose it serves. It's just like riding a bike. You get rusty but you never forget. ...Survival courses you don't forget. Medical training you don't forget...


I don't know about that, SMS.

Most of my local colleagues, many of whom are still doing reservist and are thus considered "Operationally Ready National Service Men", cheerfully admit to forgetting everything they "learned" during NS. And of course there have been so many stories of Singaporeans (presumably guys who have done BMT and jungle survival training) getting into desperate trouble after getting lost while forest walking in Malaysia.

And then there was the case a few years ago when one of my female art directors cut her finger quite badly with a pocket knife. Since I knew one of teh other art directors was an Army Medic (NS) and had just come back from In Camp Training, I asked him to help out. He turned white when he saw her finger (which was pretty impressive considering he was a very dark skinned Malay...) and confessed that he couldn't stand the sight of blood!


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests