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What else is Israel supposed to do?

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Postby Forks » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 2:37 pm

ksl wrote: Fanatics never give up


Your right KSL but who exactly are the fanatics? Its not just the Muslims (and most are not fanatics anyway) you know. Religious fanatics come from all over, all religions (note the religious fanatics in India behind the bombings there who were trying to blame it on the Muslims, or the Jewish fanatics in Israel, or the mad christian fanatics in the US who stand behind bush, or the political fanatics who promoted the war in Iraq on lies, lies and lies).

If anything the situation in the middle east is a complex one and boiling it down to black and white is sorta how it got in trouble in the first place.
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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 5:17 pm

Forks wrote:Equating the situation in Gaza to here is misguided.

My point was that it makes sense for Singapore to arm itself, what more Israel which is under actual attack. Sorry if you took that to mean that the situation here is exactly the same - it obviously isn't, as you correctly observed.

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Postby Forks » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 7:19 pm

Ok, fair point. I do sometimes read things the wrong way.

But what do you mean by "makes sense" am I wrong in reading something more into that.

Why does it make sense?

And while Israel does have the odd rocket falling on it I think they are the ones attacking the Palestinians in Gaza, so I think its the people in Gaza that are "under attack" not the other way around.
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Postby DimWit Kid » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 7:22 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
Forks wrote:Equating the situation in Gaza to here is misguided.

My point was that it makes sense for Singapore to arm itself, what more Israel which is under actual attack. Sorry if you took that to mean that the situation here is exactly the same - it obviously isn't, as you correctly observed.


I won't address it as harsh as Forks, but....

It makes sense to have an armed forces, yes, but I'm interested also (as I asked before) whether that's the reason Singapore does (as you said it) - because it feels it is surrounded by 'hostile' neighbors. I certainly feel that it's unwarranted if Singapore, at this point in time, feels that.[/b]

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:04 pm

Forks,

No worries. Sometimes I type a post too hastily without re-reading my words to see if they convey what I actually want to say. I went back and re-read the last few posts and realised that your interpretation was a very fair one. Sorry about that.

Talking about typing in haste, I meant that Israel WAS, not IS, under actual attack. In my book, if another country keeps firing rockets over here for years on end, I would feel under attack to a certain extent. Of course, now Gaza is under attack too, on a different scale obviously. I can understand why the sympathies of many people are with them - they are so clearly out-weaponed.

DWK,

Sorry I meant to answer your earlier question and then life distracted me! The simplest answer is: Why would it NOT make sense? Do you really think it is a better choice to sell all our defence equipment tomorrow?

Ok, I learnt from my earlier mistake with Forks and went back to re-read the previous paragraph and realised it could come across as evading the answer (see, now I'm becoming paranoid! :lol: ). I'm not. I just don't want to go into Singapore politics on a thread about Israel and Gaza. So a quick answer to you and Forks about my comment: It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, which obviously didn't come across too well.

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Postby DimWit Kid » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 9:22 pm

I thought so (about tongue and the cheek) but nevertheless I was wondering if you meant it. Anyway, if you see my posts - I did say it make sense for Singapore to have an armed forces. What I don't agree is that Singapore is surrounded by hostile neighbors. Despite all the rhetorics, I don't think any of those could be categorized as "hostile".
Finally - yeah let's go back to Gaza topic :)

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Postby ututu » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:59 pm

[quote="jpatokal"][quote="sillingw"]Having travelled a few time in the region, I have to admit, my sympathies lie totally with Israel. Having carved out a first world country and economy in a very unfriendly region, against all odds and aginst many bitter enemies who are ill-educated and full of hatred, I have nothing but admiration for them.[/quote]

I used to think the same way. Then I visited Israel ~10 times, also visiting the Palestinian areas (even Gaza), and now my sympathies lie with the Palestinians. [/quote]

I"ll second jpatokal here. Fact of the matter is when Israel was created nobody asked people who actually lived there about that. And in 1948 at very least 2/3 of the population were arabs. Now, imagine you are some day laborer or sheep herder or whatever who used to roam around and then suddenly some dudes in far away place decide to split place up and hand it over to other dudes. How would you react ?

I get it, jews had right to life violated by Nazi, was it a good reason to ignore majority of whoever lived in what is now Israel ?

In all fairness it would be more reasonable to have Germany cede the territory since at least it would be some retribution. I just don't get why Arabs ? Despite the arguments how backward they are/were it doesn't give anyone right to violate their rights, they are humans too, aren't they ?

People SHOULD NOT just wave it off. By 1948 we already had human rights written in and we even had trials for those who violated them on great scale. We either apply to everyone equally of just quit the charade.

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Postby batgirl_cdn » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:28 pm

I'm shocked at those of you who feel that Israel is doing the right thing.

Why haven't Israel retreated back to 1967 borders and stopped treating Palestinian areas like prison camps. (They have ignored 32 UN resolutions and the international community has not held Israel accountable.) Of course Palestinians want to retaliate when they have been living in terrible conditions for decades. Both sides have been gruesome to each other, and the international community hasn't forced a peace deal that could prevent further atrocities from taking place. Israel has been far too heavy handed when it attacked Lebanon and now Gaza. Look at the stats on the death toll. For a population of people who should know about mass murder, the Israelis are acting extremely brutal to Palestinian civilians. I'm angry, sad and disappointed with Israel, and extremely frustrated with the UN member countries for not doing more sooner to help solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

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Postby DimWit Kid » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 4:15 pm

batgirl_cdn wrote:I'm shocked at those of you who feel that Israel is doing the right thing.

Why haven't Israel retreated back to 1967 borders and stopped treating Palestinian areas like prison camps. (They have ignored 32 UN resolutions and the international community has not held Israel accountable.) Of course Palestinians want to retaliate when they have been living in terrible conditions for decades. Both sides have been gruesome to each other, and the international community hasn't forced a peace deal that could prevent further atrocities from taking place. Israel has been far too heavy handed when it attacked Lebanon and now Gaza. Look at the stats on the death toll. For a population of people who should know about mass murder, the Israelis are acting extremely brutal to Palestinian civilians. I'm angry, sad and disappointed with Israel, and extremely frustrated with the UN member countries for not doing more sooner to help solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


So to go back to the initial question - what should they do now?
I am not very sympathetic to the hardliners in Likuds, but nor I am sympathetic towards Hamas. Now, suppose the centrist in Israel and Fatah are willing to lay down some basis for peace, what should they do?
I'm sure if you are not blinded one way or another, you would see suggesting Israelis to give back Gaza to Egypt and the whole of Golan to Syria, retreat to 1967 borders unconditionally is impractical in every sense. So do you have any idea what should be done?

I also find an argument about who lives there 60 years ago in 1948 is not as strong as it seems. Aren't the jews from the area as well? What about who lives there 2000 years ago? Or for that matter 1000 or 1500 years ago? How is that relevant and practical? That's precisely one of the problem if you asked me - if people keep referring to what they think is right, and not trying to find the hard compromise and start conceding (BOTH ways) then nothing will be achieved. I think the Palestinian and Israeli will both benefit from changing their frame of mind (which I had hoped 8-9 years ago but as always it was an empty hope).

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Postby sierra2469alpha » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 5:03 pm

Colleagues - I'm with batgirl - that is why I posted some reading material in my earlier post, and also backed it up with links (thanks WIMH for including the same in your postings :) After 12 odd years of researching this as a private matter I am very pleased to see that people will discuss it openly. I think it's a good thing that sensible people here can debate such topics. Opinion is based upon, and formed from, more than the sum of its parts.

Another link:

http://www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel050602.html

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Postby batgirl_cdn » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 7:32 pm

I think that some of you need to stop listening to the pro-Israeli propaganda and take the blinkers off that Muslims=terrorists. (Ah, it was priceless when Livni was on BBC telling everyone that there is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza.) I'm not saying that there isn't propaganda from the Palestinian side as well, but Israel seems to be outdoing itself this time.

Whether you like Hamas or not, Israel has been oppressing the Palestinians for decades, and when they act out they are wrong, but when Israel acts out, they are protecting themselves. I'm starting to get the impression that some of you would be very happy if all the Palestinians left the land and took up refugee status in other Arab countries. Then Israel can have everything to itself, no more problems, right? Or the alternative is that Israel goes in and cleanses the land with its militiary, and of course would get many countries' backing, because the line would be that Israel is defending itself. The international community hasn't been pushing for a peace plan to be implemented a.s.a.p, the problem just festers for decades. What a convenient solution all that would be...

Robert Fisk has done some great articles on the Israeli/Palestinian crisis. http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/

Also, here is the full text of the Arab Peace Initiative from 2002 that was endorsed by 22 members of the Arab league, but of course rejected by Israel. http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/rwb.nsf/All ... 8a0054b62e Maybe this initiative needs some serious consideration and Israel had better get to the table and talk, if they really want to peacefully live side-by-side with the Palestinians.

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Postby DimWit Kid » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 9:25 pm

And what is the point batgirl?

Sorry I'm just a simpleton who doesn't do research - but so is majority of this world. It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong in this matter, because I think it's so convoluted.

some people are so academic, so right and wrong, black and white, that they forget to be practical. Sometimes, the quest on who's right or wrong is the root of all trouble - vengeance is the theme of the day no matter what. Either you kneel down in front of me and I spit and kick you, or there will be war forever. What's the sense of that? I suspect not many people have a real idea about how to end the conflict. I'm not saying I do, but arguing who's right who's wrong is meaningless as the matter is, again, so convoluted.

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Postby Wind In My Hair » Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:33 pm

Aargh! Someone's been moving threads again...

Batgirl,

If it makes you feel any better, I am not pro-Israel. Like I said, I know too little about this conflict to take sides. I just don't know how anyone can expect any country to be fired upon for years and not eventually put a stop to it.
Last edited by Wind In My Hair on Tue, 13 Jan 2009 8:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ksl » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 1:57 am

Forks wrote:
ksl wrote: Fanatics never give up


Your right KSL but who exactly are the fanatics? Its not just the Muslims (and most are not fanatics anyway) you know. Religious fanatics come from all over, all religions (note the religious fanatics in India behind the bombings there who were trying to blame it on the Muslims, or the Jewish fanatics in Israel, or the mad christian fanatics in the US who stand behind bush, or the political fanatics who promoted the war in Iraq on lies, lies and lies).

If anything the situation in the middle east is a complex one and boiling it down to black and white is sorta how it got in trouble in the first place.


I am embracing everyone's ideologies and their right to have them, however all Government have laws of Civil defence or rely on outsiders to support them. There are many nutters in the world, that use, there power for their own selfish wants and needs.

The whole blame of the troubles in the East must lie with those that created the problem after the 2nd world war, although those days are well gone. My point is that governments like the US and Europeans, try their best to secure freedom and democracies, based on a majority vote.

Most of the troubles in the Middle East are now, being thrown back in the faces of the west, simply because, they, the west have sold them, the militias out, like the mujahedeen and all the others that had been promised support.

The old shah of Iran who was quite liberal had to do a runner, because of the extremists, The middle east has always been a melting pot, and how many ME Countries are run by governments! They all have their own militias and leaders, they all want a piece of the pye

Hence, once Bush calls everyone a terrorist, because of the 9/11 all funding was stopped, large sums of money frozen and probably confiscated. For the other Countries to rally behind Bush was a very big mistake

What governments and i mean politicians have done over the years is to ignore the threats, that were very clear, would happen in the late 60's, right up to today, so for the last 40 years, the doors of Europe have been open, for potential terrorists from all Countries, to be excepted as refugees, human rights laws have been strengthened, While the stupid west and US consentrated on Communism, even though they knew about the build up of extremism.

All governments that have supported subversive warfare in the Middle East, to keep it out of the hands of Communism have now turned their backs on them. Now communism isn't a threat, so it's a new enemy which the USA & other nations had backed for many years.

So defence of Singapore is more needed today, than at any other time, Singapore is and always has been of Strategic value in the straights, and will be protected. Many foreigners died in the past so that Singapore citizens could be free under the hierarchy structure of the British.

Now even the UK isn't what it was, and the reason why, is simply that all the wealth of Britain has been syphoned off, to offshore banks, the privileged have sucked the blood out of the Country and sold off it's Country to everyone in the world.

All the talent gone, all industry gone, all inventions sold off, all large businesses sold off, most of London is taken over by rich wealthy Arabs, Russians, Greeks, in fact everyone has a slice, except the working man, and those that have worked hard all their lives are now punished for it.

All wars are wrong in my mind, and I am a defence minded kind of guy, The blame all lies with those that caused it, and the fanatics will fight on, those civilians that die, I feel so sorry for. it could all stop tomorrow, but it will not.

The Palestinians deserve a place to live and so do the jewish settlers, so why don't the surrounding Countries also give them land, there is no solution to the problem, this is how humans behave, when living under those circumstance year in and year out, they want revenge and I'm not just saying it's a muslim problem, because most terrorists only trust terrorists.

Singapore is really more in need of defence today, than any other time in its history. If you were only to realise how much power the gun carries, and how much damage one person can do, that is trained to do it, this Island could easy be over run. well it was when the British had it that must have been awfully embarrassing! I really don't see any end to it, until there is all out war.

Many of you may think you are right to say there are no hostile threats in the area, just because they do not advertise a threat doesn't mean, that they are not observing or planning one.

Just like any good businessman, he wants market share, so how is he going to take it away from those that have it?

I personally avoid all the media for me it's just a bad dream, that i never wake up from, having worked with these refugees from the middle east, I know how well, they have been screwed by western politics. But hey, our own politics screw us too, in many ways, and occasionally the ones that flip out, get shot dead.

Forks is right it, ideologies that differ from the norm, are also included, but my main point is that, troubles around the world are happening everyday of the week, people are literally being slaughtered, starved, robbed of their lives on a daily basis, by their leaders of their Countries, and nothing is done. Why? When one is closely involved day in and day out, one becomes traumatised by what happens, one adapts, to live, it's life in the jungle, with nothing else in sight.

So yes fanatics, there will always be, and if they are not monitored and educated to talk in stead of violence, what can i say, tit for tat, and guerilla warfare you can never beat it. Many of the sufferers of all wars carry the scars for life, so i can understand why some people think earth could be heaven, but its really hell for them and if you have been in the thick of it, you will never forget it.

For those that have perished, God rest their souls. although one cannot change destiny, and through history, until today, there has not been any solution to warfare and my heart carries a heavy burden of emotion for the people that suffer in the world, and for what!

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Postby sundaymorningstaple » Tue, 13 Jan 2009 7:08 am

WIMH,
sorry, but I didn't want to take a risk of this thread going off on a tangent. It's a good thread and all here are taking it seriously so I though it was better off here before you get a yokel like me in it who only says blow 'em all up and let god sort 'em out.

:-|


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