What else is Israel supposed to do?

Post by **sundaymorningstaple** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 1:23 pm

I have to concur.

sillingw · Post by **sillingw** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 1:33 pm

I'm not absolutely positive, but seem to remember that the "Modern" state of Israel was founded by United Nations decree (Not by the British) - In fact on the founding and the declaration of statehood by Israelies, the british handed over strategic forts and camps to the arab league and declared several israeli leaders terrorists - since I am british, this is not something I am proud of.

Hamas were voted democratically into power, but then the Muslim brotherhood faction (read islamic fundamentalist) took over and nullified the good work the initial Hamas movement had done - the Palestinian Authrity (PLO) were corrupt and vilified by the palestinian people, so it was not a great surprise that Hamas won an internationally verified free and fair election. However, when they then proceeded to get rid of all opposition - especially Palestinian Authority - thru murder and terrorism, I think they were showing their tru colours. They took over Gaza by military might and muder, not democracy. Since the Hamas Constitution refuses to even recognise Israels right to exist and is interpreted as the right to the destruction of Israel - it is no surprise to me that Israel refuses to deal with them (along with all leading democracies). In my mind, it is time for the world to recognise the intolerable situation Israel has been living with since the foundation of the state and also recognises what Hisbollah and Hamas are all about - To me this is about freedom loving, democratic, people who want nothing but peace, against islamic fundamentalist terrorists who want to take the world back to the dark ages with their beliefs and inhumanity.

I stand by my support for Israel.

sierra2469alpha · Post by **sierra2469alpha** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 6:47 pm

OK I will bite a little here. The Palestinian Conflict is something I have studied for some years now - close on 12 years, actually. I also want to say that I will always support anybody's right to speak their views. That being said, to the pro-Israeli members of our community, please don't flame but please appreciate a viewpoint that has been of particular interest to myself and hence why I proferred some equal texts in my previous posts.

Now that I have all the usual disclaimers out of the way (!), I'd like to add a few salient points to the discussion, particularly, to Shavit and sillingw (sillingw - always appreciated your posts - good work, and Shavit, as WIMH said, a very good first post).

Shavit - I appreciate your sentiment. However I don't agree with some of your points. The non-quotation and verification of your points regarding the IDF only ever friing toward the sources of fire have been well disproven over the years (please see the links I mentioned). Secondly, the IDF have been shown to assasinate various leaders of not only Hammas (use the correct English spelling, please), the PLO, and other Palestinian leaders (sources: Time magazine, UNHCR, The European Commission for Human Rights, The Hague).

The remark that "...During the recent war in south Lebanon, and well as the recent fights in Raffia near Gaza, the IDF pleaded persistently all civilians to leave their houses until the fights with the terrorists are over. What other army in the world does that? ..." has very little virtue for me. Without any backup to your claims, I can only claim those of colleagues who worked with me at Medicins San Frontiers in Mexico, and who are now deployed near Gaza, having been removed three weeks ago due to personal safety issues. Should you care to back your statement up I am sure MSF would love to see it.

Shavit, your comment "..And the world defends those who don't have second thoughts about firing on cities or exploding in buses..." rings true to all human beings. Nobody likes war, or hostilities, and I certainly do not condone the use of violence, unless it's against rather large mosquitos here at home! However, the amount of militiary, commercial, and logitistics funding that Israel gets from the US, France, and Germany, is significantly, to the factor of 5, than the Palestinian organistions get from Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey (source: CIDA, Al-jazeera, The NYT, Washington Post - again - use google or your search engine of choice).

And the world defends those who don't have second thoughts about firing on cities or exploding in buses.

No, but the IDF is happy to be given (yes, GIVEN) US military aircraft such as the Apache helicopter replete with 30MM cannons and Hellfire missiles. Don't believe me?
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

I'm happy to post this little one in also, which is always a big cause for discussion: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... rael1.html

@SillingW - Yes the Brits, and the French (remember the 7 day war) were complicit in all of this - remember - everyone was trying to protect the Suez. Egypt was also complicit and actually went to a round-table discussion regarding the Suez with, their death do us part "friends", Saudi Arabia. (Source: IHT)

I will take some offence at calling:

the Muslim brotherhood faction (read islamic fundamentalist) took over and nullified the good work the initial Hamas movement had done - the Palestinian Authrity (PLO) were corrupt and vilified by the palestinian people, so it was not a great surprise that Hamas won an internationally verified free and fair election.

That's actually factually incorrect - I'm happy to argue the points of the PLO being corrupt, however to say "...the Muslim brotherhood faction (read islamic [sic] fundamentalist)..." is quite offensive to me.

Well I do hope this adds to a healthy discussion of the issues.

Mr. P

Wind In My Hair · Post by **Wind In My Hair** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 9:12 pm

sierra2469alpha wrote:No, but the IDF is happy to be given (yes, GIVEN) US military aircraft such as the Apache helicopter replete with 30MM cannons and Hellfire missiles. Don't believe me?
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Er, if I were living in a little country surrounded by unfriendly neighbours (oh wait, but I am!), I would accept the gift for self-defence too. I would even pay for it! I don't see what's wrong with this.

Post by **jpatokal** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:46 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:Based on these figures, blaming Israel for the total death toll of Palestinians is overly simplistic, isn't it?

Of the 640 Palestinians dead in the present Gaza conflict, as far as I know, 100% were killed by the Israeli army, directly or indirectly.

I'm sure the Israelis are not saints, but the Palestinians seem quite happy to kill their own and account for a large number of their deaths.

I'm not sure "happy" is quite the right word, but yes, the factional warfare between PLO and Hamas has been murderous in the most literal possible sense of the word. It's also very much exacerbated by the IDF paying/coercing informers to do their bidding, including their policy of assassinating leaders they don't like, which means that collaborators or those suspected of collaborating tend to get strung up from the nearest telephone pole.

So why do people in Gaza fight each other and Israel so desperately? It boils down to survival. Gaza has 1.5 million people crammed into a parched chunk of desert, unemployment is over 50%, the population density is among the highest in the planet (with no HDB-style housing, mind you...), half the population is under 18. Per capita income is around $600, on par with Rwanda. Most people living in Gaza have, literally, never known or even seen anything else; most of those who have are refugees from elsewhere in Palestine.

What does this mean? It means that you can't run a legitimate business in Gaza: nobody in Gaza has any money, and you have no access to markets outside Gaza. If you want to feed your family, you have to either work for the government or the militias, both of which are funded from the outside. And if your family falls out of favor -- because everybody in Palestine knows who is Fatah and who is Hamas -- and you lose that job, you're going to get real desperate real fast, and desperate people do desperate things.

Morever, Israel's attack is targeted, unlike the Palestinians who simply lob rockets over not caring who they hit. And to blame Israel for the high Palestinian death toll when it's the Palestinians themselves who use civilians as shields is also a bit thick.

Let's assume you're a terrorist in Gaza, and you want to kill some Israelis. How are you going to do it, so that you "target" your victims to boot? Remember that the IDF pulled out a few years, so until this week, there were no Israelis present in the Strip itself. Here's a description of what it involves for a Palestinian (or anybody else) to exit Gaza, assuming they've managed to line up the permissions in the first place:

Entry, though difficult, pales in comparison to exit. After being deposited at Shamsa Shamsa, go to the white caravan to your right. A man will take your passport and call ahead to tell the Israelis you're coming. Ignore this at your own peril. Cross no-mans-land, enter the concrete tunnel (note the CCTV and speakers playing helicopter noises) and wait at the row of doors. There will usually be a porter with a flask of tea there. Once a handful of people have gathered, one of the doors will open (indicated by a green light on top of the door). Under no circumstances attempt to enter the open doorways on the far left or far right -- these are for foot passengers entering Gaza. You will then enter a hall with a table at the centre. Open your bags at the table. A disembodied voice is likely to bark something at you in Hebrew. When they're happy with what they see in your bags, go through the turnstile when the light flashes green. You will see toilet facilities to your right. Use them. Follow the arrows to Israel. You will then encounter another hall with eight doorways. Wait until one of the lights go green then enter that doorway. Leave your bags with the porter at a large security scanner. Keep your passport and ID on you. Enter a series of gates as the lights flash green. When you come to the body scanner, put your feet on the markers and place your hands on your head. If you're lucky, you will be allowed out to a hall where it appears as if your bags will emerge on a conveyor belt...they won't. Walk straight through to the departures hall. And await your bags there. If you're unlucky, you'll be detained in the maze of body scanners. There is a separate section that will reveal itself to you if the guards in the gallery above feel they need to strip search you. Exit from Gaza could take an hour or several hours. The soldier at the final exit gate will ask you such pressing questions as "Where have you been?" and "Did you speak to any Arabs?". Answer politely. Otherwise you'll be really thankful you used the toilet early in your journey.

I went through an early version of that in 2000, before they ratcheted up the security, and it took me 4 hours.

Post by **jpatokal** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:49 pm

Shavit wrote:That area never belonged to the Palestinians, so writing that Israel took half of their land is a lie.

Nono, you've got it wrong. According to Golda Meir, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian".

Arabs came from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi-Arabia to the land of Israel and settled there. Now they call themselves Palestinians.

I think you mean "Jews came from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi-Arabia to the land of Palestine and settled there. Now they call themselves Israelis."

Post by **jpatokal** » Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:59 pm

sillingw wrote:I'm not absolutely positive, but seem to remember that the "Modern" state of Israel was founded by United Nations decree (Not by the British) - In fact on the founding and the declaration of statehood by Israelies, the british handed over strategic forts and camps to the arab league and declared several israeli leaders terrorists - since I am british, this is not something I am proud of.

Uhh... you might want to read up on your early Israeli history. The Irgun, led by Menachem Begin (later prime minister), was by any definition a terrorist organization. In their own words, "Distinguishing between individuals is longer possible, for now - it is a war, and the even the innocent shall not be absolved." A few of their more famous strikes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_Bombing (91 killed)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre (107-120 killed)

Since the Hamas Constitution refuses to even recognise Israels right to exist and is interpreted as the right to the destruction of Israel - it is no surprise to me that Israel refuses to deal with them (along with all leading democracies).

The PLO Constitution said precisely the same thing until the Oslo accords, and Begin and company thundered against it until the end -- and now the PLO is suddenly everybody's favorite lapdog.

DimWit Kid · Post by **DimWit Kid** » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:50 am

Wind In My Hair wrote: Er, if I were living in a little country surrounded by unfriendly neighbours (oh wait, but I am!) ....

You really feel that way WIMH?

Shavit · Post by **Shavit** » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 8:43 am

jpatokal wrote:
Shavit wrote:That area never belonged to the Palestinians, so writing that Israel took half of their land is a lie.
Nono, you've got it wrong. According to Golda Meir, there is no such thing as a "Palestinian".

Arabs came from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi-Arabia to the land of Israel and settled there. Now they call themselves Palestinians.
I think you mean "Jews came from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Saudi-Arabia to the land of Palestine and settled there. Now they call themselves Israelis."

1. According to history (and according to a PLO leader as well. strange.
usually they rewrite history).

2. They were returning to the homeland they we expelled from 2000 years ago.
Let's say I'm wrong. How come millions of people from all around the world
have the same bible, same anticipation to return to the same place on earth,
same hope to be in Jerusalem celebrating their holy days ?

DimWit Kid · Post by **DimWit Kid** » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 2:54 pm

Shavit wrote:How come millions of people from all around the world
have the same bible, same anticipation to return to the same place on earth,
same hope to be in Jerusalem celebrating their holy days ?

Not saying that I disagree with you on my stance about Israel/Palestinian issue - quite the opposite. But this line of argument is just not right. There are many people who are not Jews have the same expectation that you write there. So it's not a valid argument to say that just because a group of people have the same expectation, it proves that they are a nation that comes from Jerusalem.

apotek · Post by **apotek** » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 3:43 pm

Well, since it was Palestine that started this latest round, the Israelis do have the right to retaliate.

ksl · Post by **ksl** » Fri, 09 Jan 2009 4:01 pm

apotek wrote:Well, since it was Palestine that started this latest round, the Israelis do have the right to retaliate.

Freedom fighters will always hide behind that term, it justifies all the pain and suffering that they causes, but they the ring leaders sit pretty, while the grunts do the collections around the world for the cause, it's terrorism at it's best and many people around the world, just don't see, that it is a lifestyle, children are born into, and indoctrinated to hate the jew.

That's the way it has always been and will remain, until all the jews have dispersed and that is not likely, what is likely is the NUKE, from which direction, one can take bets. But I have no doubt it will happen, the question is when. The turmoil in the Middle East has always been a melting pot, they hate each other and the way it is all structured makes it a target for any militias larger enough to over throw.

Although protection agreements are in place for oil, the weakness of the US and other nations have been identified.

Iraq is a failure without question and all nations have been tested to clean up Iraq. Iran is a big threat to the Middle East and is no doubt being helped to develop missiles to hit, where it wants to. Fanatics never give up

BodyBlitz · Post by **BodyBlitz** » Sat, 10 Jan 2009 4:20 am

The more I read about this from different perspective the more I find that this ordeal rather pointless and brought upon Hamas themselves.

Who has the rightful ownership of the land is arbitrary to the fact that an entire nation has grown there since its arrival, notwithstanding that there are several generations who lived on the soil already.

Were they expecting with the rocket attacks, that an entire nation will just pack their bags and leave?

Where you'd expect them go?

Sure you'd have some conflicts, but you don't provoke someone who is packing more heat than you, its like asking to for a beating.

waz · Post by **waz** » Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:00 pm

I don't believe it started with the rockets etc.
Other than blockade of goods and movement to the Gaza which why the rocket was lauched, it started way way back.

I don't think we can really take side either coz many from what I gather, many have never been there or to feel how it is really like.

If I were trapped in my own country, not enough water & food, not enough resources to improve living condition, not enough fuel to run th power-station coz of the blockade, do you think I would throw stone across the border?

To have simplistic view of what you see in CNN or BBC is not enough.
Have a look at Al-Jazeera TV.

Forks · Post by **Forks** » Sun, 11 Jan 2009 2:31 pm

Wind In My Hair wrote:
sierra2469alpha wrote:No, but the IDF is happy to be given (yes, GIVEN) US military aircraft such as the Apache helicopter replete with 30MM cannons and Hellfire missiles. Don't believe me?
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
Er, if I were living in a little country surrounded by unfriendly neighbours (oh wait, but I am!), I would accept the gift for self-defence too. I would even pay for it! I don't see what's wrong with this.

Im not sure if Israel and Singapore are in the same situation. Sure there are rockets being fired into Israel but Gaza is under blockade. Given that the casualties stand at 800 plus to 10 or so I think this is not a war but more akin to slaughter.

No one is firing rockets into Singapore, Singapore isnt blockading anyone, I think the comparison is a bit off. SGPs neighbors are not unfriendly (or at all considering how many of them are here and how often SGPers go to their counties) compared to whats happening there.

Equating the situation in Gaza to here is misguided.

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